All of you know that nothing exists and this argument is entirely useless.
Let the dreamers decide what is good and what is bad.
Hi all,
Here is what Yogani says about a vegetarian diet in the main lessons for those who are interested in the subject:
from:
http://www.aypsite.org/305.html
Christi
LOL!
Indeed!
“Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing,
there is a field. I will meet you there.”
~Rumi
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
Hi Kirtanman,
What about love? How does that fit into the picture? How does it affect the way we treat animals?
Christi
Narrow is the lane of love, two will never fit
When I was, the Lord was not
Now He is, I am not
- Kabir
The basic fact - that you are not the body - must be clear to you by now. You are working in the world and you think that you are doing that work, but what is really happening is this: the life force, when it comes out in thoughts and words, is the mind, so it is this pram mind, life force mind, which is the acting principle. The beingness, the consciousness, is the God which witnesses the life force and mind working. It does not interfere; it merely witnesses. The reason for your unhappiness is that you think it is you are working. - Nisargadatta
(Neo straightens as the dojo dissolves away like a curtain lifting, leaving the two men now standing on a building rooftop in a city skyline.
Morpheus turns to Neo, his long coat flapping in the wind.)
Morpheus : You have to let it all go, Neo. Fear…doubt…and disbelief.
Free your mind…
(Morpheus spins, running hard at the edge of the rooftop. And jumps. He sails through the air, his coat billowing out behind him like a cape -
He somersaults once and lands on the rooftop across the street.)
Neo : Woah.
http://dc-mrg.english.ucsb.edu/WarnerTeach/E192/matrix/Matrix.script.html
Welcome to reality!
Hi Christi,
You described it well in a recent post in this thread:
“there is a melting down into the heart. This is the rise of compassion and divine love (love which does not place any conditions on it’s existence).”
The movement of wholeness is love, which manifests as a harmony with, and a loving of, what is - all of what is - not as a separate being evaluating the loving - but simply being the loving, the natural harmonious flowing.
Some people eat meat (animals), others do not. Some feel drawn to eliminate meat (animals) from their diet, others do not. Some feel drawn to engage in activism to reduce the suffering of animals, or to help raise awareness regarding the suffering of animals produced for food, and others do not.
Some waves in the ocean wave north, some wave south - and neither set is going the wrong direction, because there isn’t one.
I would say that love is the willingness to let life flow unimpeded.
I hope that clarifies my perspective; please let me know if not.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
[quote=“Kirtanman”]
Hi Ram,
Certain teachers express certain things well, and certain teachers also have high name-recognition and respect - and so, quotes can be useful in that regard, I find.
If you read through my post exchange with you tonight, you’ll see that most statements are statements directly from me.
Per comments in other posts, I don’t promote anything - including advaitic views - exclusively.
Whatever I write is just what happens; everything’s like that.
The wholeness writing and reading these words is the same.
Really.
Bhakti, Karma, Tantra - numerous means, supports, methods, can all be useful at times, and for certain people.
That’s an essential key: nothing is fixed; the ego sees ice where reality is flowing, living water.
Dude … I sing Bhaja Govindam … did you notice my username, by chance??
I’m not exclusively advaitic (heck, I’m not even exclusively “I” ).
Maybe try, if you like, reading what I say with a bit more open mind … and see if it doesn’t seem a little different (than the “advaita only” approach you’ve been sure I was taking.)
And, just FYI, if you read through some fairly recent posts of mine, you’ll see that there have been … some “rather extensive” discussions regarding “my” enlightenment, including quite a few opinions of “likely not so much.”
Sitting here smiling as I write this ---- it so doesn’t matter.
There’s only wholeness.
How could I care at all what we call it?
Only wholeness.
It’s just beautiful.
Unspeakably so.
And it’s really, really, really what we all truly are.
If you only take one thing away from everything I’ve written tonight - I recommend the last four sentences above this sentence …
Wholeheartedly.
Kirtanman
Dear Kirtanman, You sound more and more like Nisargadatta, Krishnamurti, Adyashanti, etc. Like an echo from them. May be you are enlightened and live in the state of advaita, the oneness, the state of satchitananda. But I contradict people like Krishnamurti for various reasons including the ones that I stated on this thread. Every one in this world is not ready for the messages from these great masters. It can harm many who are not ready to receive such knowledge. And I still strongly believe that making statements like "All wrongness is illusion", in an open forum could be extremely harmful to many, especially when one is confused and trying to make a critical decision in life. Spiritual seekers are at different levels. Vedanta is called vedanta for a reason. 'Anta', it is the end of the Veda. The karmas are the first portion of the vedas. The high philosophies of vedanta were later taught later to students, who are ready to receive such messages. If you want to do a masters degree in an university, you must have certain prior qualifications to enroll. The qualifications that are needed for vedantic study are clearly stated in vedantas itself. It might only cause harm to read vedantas when some one lacks those qualifications. Every one is not ready to receive vedantic thoughts like, 'all world is just illusion' and there is no right and wrong. So, even if I believe in advaita, zen, upanishads, I would not suggest mere philosophy and quotes from others as solutions to a very specific question, or to all other questions/issues for that matter. Everything you say may be right. I even agree with all or most of the things that you say. But the contradiction comes, when we discuss about presenting these thoughts as solutions to problems occurring in some other individual's life. We do not know anything about the karmas of the individual in question. So, to say that Ramana Maharishi, Adyashanti, and Nisargadatta said it is okay to eat meat, or it does not matter either way. Therefore it is okay for any one to eat meat is not acceptable to me. The sanatana dharma provides various paths for various students. The path of jnana yoga (knowledge) that makes statements like, "All wrongness is illusion", "Just observe", "Just be" etc., are not for all. The advanced calculus is not taught in the math class for a third grader. Here is a statement from Gita 3-6, where Krishna is talking about the importance of karmas, before we get into the lofty notions of vedanta etc. Gita 3-6 karmendriyani samyamya ya aste manasa smaran indriyarthan vimudhatma mithyacarah sa ucyate (A deluded person who forcibly controls his working senses while internally meditating on sense objects is a person whose actions belie his stated beliefs.) Many people in this world including me are still under the spell of sense objects and the sense organs. So, we are not ready yet for high vedanta and advaitic philosophies in my opinion. We can keep arguing about this topic. But, I think I have made my stand very clear. I have nothing more to say to you on this topic. Regards, Ram.
I got side tracked discussing the merits of advocating advaitic or vedantic thoughts on each and every issue.
I wanted to share my opinion on the topic of Vegetarian and Non-Vegetarian. I see this or any other issue from the point of dharma or adharma. The right or wrong action (karma). Doing one’s own right action is his/her dharma. This differs from person to person and from time to time.
For those who do not know, Vyasa was the sage who compiled the four vedas and wrote the 18 maha (great) puranas. Puranas are stories that illustrate the dharmic way of life. They talk about karmas and what is merit, what is sin, in a given situation for a given person, etc. The various stories are given to show examples of what is dharma in varying situations. What is dharma in one situation could be adharma in another. The doctor cutting the patient with the knife to serve him is doing his dharma. Where as if some one cuts another person with a knife with an intent to harm. it is adharma. If one were to sincerely study one of these puranas, it would take years. So, voluminous are the 18 great puranas. Each one of them have thousands of verses.
If some one were to ask sage Vyasa to summarize this whole library of 18 great puranas in just two sentences, what would he say???
Here is what he said:
Serving others is dharma. Harming others is adharma. Now each one of us have to decide whether eating meat is dharma or adharma.
Consuming meat not only causes harm to the animal, but we all are now learning about the impact of eating meat to the earth and our ecological system. I am sure some of you have watched the slaughter houses and how the animals are treated there in Television. We can also argue that eating plants is also causing harm. In my mind it is to a much lesser degree. We do penances (tapas) for doing unavoidable harms.
In my language Tamil, we say “Anbe Sivam”. The love/compassion is the lord Shiva. If we have compassion and love, we can not slaughter and eat an animal in my opinion. As I stated earlier on this same thread, some others might feel completely okay with the slaughter houses, the impact to the ecological system, the harm to the animal, etc. If their conscience has no issues with all those things, let them go ahead and eat meat. As they grow spiritually, they might become aware in a latter stage, and see the need to change. I used to be able to do certain actions 5 or 10 years before, without my conscience raising any kind of issues. But, I can not do the same actions any more because my conscience repels against those actions. If I still do them against my own instincts, I end up with great remorse committing a sin. So, people change and their dharmas change.
From where I am right now, I perceive eating meat as causing harm not only to the animals, but to our earth, its ecological system and much more. My conscience repels when I see the slaughter houses on the Television. The poor animals given powerful antibiotic and other shots every day. The slaughter houses are cruel places. One who has seen them even in television can understand.
As we saw earlier, Vyasa’s summary of the 18 puranas state that doing harm to others is a sin. To me, eating meat is causing harm to others in various ways. Therefore, I can not consume meat.
Regards,
Ram.
In the wild part of the state I live in, wolves were killing the elk, and they were afraid the elk would be extinct. So they sent in hunters to kill the wolves. Now there are way too many elk. So they made it legal to hunt the elk again, and it is illegal to kill the wolves.
I was a vegetarian for 11 years. I was very physically sick because of this. After starting AYP I decided I wanted to “be well”, so I started eating meat again. I have never been healthier.
Love!
Christi,
Thanks for that great insight. I agree 100% with you. There was a time, when I was also making such statements like nothing is right or wrong etc. As you stated it might be a stage that we go through. But that approach only took me backwards.
You said, “we no longer would wish to harm another living creature if we didn’t have to”
True. Please read the Vyasa’s quote that I made on another reply in this same thread.
Sage Vyasa has only two things to say in summary of all his eighteen puranas:
Serving others has good merits (‘puNyam’)
Hurting, harming or giving pain to others is sin (‘pApam’).
Regards,
Ram
That is wonderful! If your own inner conscience has no issues with it and you do not end up with remorse, then go ahead and do it (If you feel that is the right way for you!)
As Yogani states, the guru is in us. As long as the inner guru is okay with the action, we should be fine.
Regards,
Ram.
I know it is a “necessary evil” at least for a time. I’m just doing whatever I am inclined to do and trying not to judge myself too much. I know that I will likely be a vegetarian again someday, but it will happen when/if the time is right.
Love!
I know it is a “necessary evil” at least for a time. I’m just doing whatever I am inclined to do and trying not to judge myself too much. I know that I will likely be a vegetarian again someday, but it will happen when/if the time is right.
Love!
Yes, I completely agree on the "necessary evils". Only we know our situation and what is best for us. Valmiki wanted to write the story of a hero who was a perfect man and followed dharma all the time. Thus came Rama's story (Ramayana). Rama never did any adharma, that's the gist of his story. He left the kingdom and went to forest without a second thought to uphold dharma. The whole story of Rama is to illustrate and provide us with an example of a Hero who followed dharma even on testing times. But, that same Rama sent an arrow and killed Vali (The monkey king), from hiding behind a tree. This is a great point of debate in Rama's story to this day. Why did Rama, who is an embodiment of dharma engage in an act that would be considered cowardly and completely wrong. I see it as a "necessary evil" that had to be done at the time. Regards, Ram.
This is where I see the truth of there being no absolute “right and wrongs”… It may be wrong to kill an animal for food in some instances for some people (like when there is plenty of option and it isn’t doing harm to oneself by being a strict vegan), but for others it isn’t wrong because it is necessary for one reason or another. This to me is where “sefl-judgment” comes into play. From my perspective, karma is created by self-judgments. When we do something, even inspite our internal inclination to judge it as “wrong,” we incur negative karma. But if we lose the self-judgment around the action (and I mean REALLY lose the self-judgment not just “trick” ourselves into THINKING we have lost the self-judgment) and just act according to our inclination, we do not incur karma…positive OR negative. So when living from a place of “no-judgment” karma is seen as an illusion. This is my perspective on this anyways. Always subject to change at any moment 
Love!
For the sake of clarity for others reading this thread, I’d like to point out that a balanced vegetarian diet and a balanced vegan diet are perfectly healthy.
From vegan.org:
In its 1996 position paper on vegetarian diets, the American Dietetic Association reported that vegan and vegetarian diets can significantly reduce one’s risk of contracting heart disease, colon and lung cancer, osteoporosis, diabetes, kidney disease, hypertension, obesity, and a number of other debilitating conditions. Cows’ milk contains ideal amounts of fat and protein for young calves, but far too much for humans. And eggs are higher in cholesterol than any other food, making them a leading contributor to cardiovascular disease.
And I follow a vegan diet, and am very healthy on it
I realise this isn’t really the point of this thread, but thought it worth mentioning.
Sure… of course it’s totally possible to be a healthy vegan/vegetarian. I wasn’t though. I didn’t have the time, ambition or knowledge to be a healthy vegetarian. I stopped eating meat because I felt it was ethically wrong…but I didn’t have the time or ambition (not to mention I REALLY hated cooking) to figure out how to be a healthy vegetarian. I just ate whatever didn’t have meat in it and took a lot of suppliments. The only time I ate meat was when I went through the personal trauma of catching, killing and preparing an animal myself (only managed to do this twice in 11 years). So yes, it’s possible to be a healthy vegan/vegetarian, but it isn’t (IMO) necessary to be vegan/vegetarian in order to live a liberated existence. It’s just a personal preference IMO.
Love!
Hi Ram,
No worries; you’ve made your opinions quite clear (as far as having nothing further to discuss on this issue).
I just wanted to clarify, per the point above, that none of the teachers you named above, nor I, am giving any specific advice regarding a vegetarian diet.
I support and agree with Yogani’s statements on the matter, 100%.
The context of my citing what those teachers had to say, was per the original focus of this thread, which was the stated opinion that vegetarianism is an absolute requirement of some kind.
My point, if nothing else, was simply that not everyone agrees with this - including some highly-respected teachers, such as those I cited, and including Yogani (in my view, Ramana, Nisargadatta and Adyashanti were not saying anything different, in substance, than what Yogani has said, or than what I am saying).
In the case of Adyashanti and Nisargadatta, the context was someone (effectively) saying to each of them: “You’re enlightened! You shouldn’t eat meat!”
To which their simple and truthful response was: “I do eat meat.”
(In each of those cases.)
In the case of Ramana (who I’m presuming was vegetarian, being South Indian), he said that a vegetarian diet is helpful before realization, and not necessary after, because of the fact that prior to realization, steadying of the mind is what is needed – and this is specifically what a vegetarian diet helps one to do.
As Patanjali said: “Yogash citta vrtti nirodhah” - yoga (oneness, wholeness) is the cessation of mind-unsteadiness. (Yoga Sutras 1.2)
I’m not asking you to agree in any way, by the way; I simply wanted to clarify what I had actually said the teachers I quoted had said - none of them implied “eating meat is okay for anyone to do” … which is an important point, because realized teachers such as the three we’re discussing, tend not to make any “should” or “shouldn’t” types of pronouncements.
With openness and sincerity, each of us can recognize what is right for us at any given time, and flow with it harmoniously - including whatever specifics of diet may be adopted at any given time.
I hope this is useful, and I do appreciate your comments. As I’ve said to others, in other threads - a bit of dialog from different viewpoints can be good, because anyone reading can see more than one perspective – as is the case here.
And I agree fully with you, regarding that we’re all a community here, and all here to support one another; you and I just have a bit of a different view on some of the specifics, which is a dynamic that can be helpful for all of us, as long as we all remember that we’re all on the same side, and inherently here to help one another.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
Hi Christi,
You described it well in a recent post in this thread:
“there is a melting down into the heart. This is the rise of compassion and divine love (love which does not place any conditions on it’s existence).”
The movement of wholeness is love, which manifests as a harmony with, and a loving of, what is - all of what is - not as a separate being evaluating the loving - but simply being the loving, the natural harmonious flowing.
Some people eat meat (animals), others do not. Some feel drawn to eliminate meat (animals) from their diet, others do not. Some feel drawn to engage in activism to reduce the suffering of animals, or to help raise awareness regarding the suffering of animals produced for food, and others do not.
Some waves in the ocean wave north, some wave south - and neither set is going the wrong direction, because there isn’t one.
I would say that love is the willingness to let life flow unimpeded.
I hope that clarifies my perspective; please let me know if not.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
Hi Kirtanman, What do you make of verse 5:20 of Jesus's "Sermon on the mount"? " 5:20 For I say unto you, That unless your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven." And what do you make of the first Yama in Patanjali's Yoga Sutras, Ahimsa? If there is no universal right or wrong for all spiritual aspirants, what is it there for? Christi
Hi Christi,
I interpret that as “unless your consciousness is less bound by the dream of egoic limitation (than that of the scribes and pharisees, who are enslaved to the dream of ideas equalling reality), you will not know the fulfillment of your inherent liberation, in experience.”
In a similar manner to the Bible verse you asked about, I would say that ahimsa - non-harming … can serve as an inherent orientation toward a more reality-based consciousness; more inclusive, more whole.
Only the dream of ego feels opposition, or an interest in harming.
If ahmisa was meant to be universal, I would think that more guidelines than simply “non-harming” would have been given; the specifics were left up to practitioners and gurus - not all of whom interpreted ahimsa the same way, by a long shot.
It might be worth noting that Kashmir Shaivism teaches Satanga - six limbs of yoga - rather than Ashtanga - eight limbs - because the Yamas and Niyamas are specifically not included.
Much like AYP, Kashmir Shaivism sees development of the so-called Yamas and Niyamas as primarily being a result of practices - not a prerequisite, and certainly not the priority.
“Do whatever you want, and meditate.” as Swami Lakshmanjoo said.
Presuming your question relates to the discussion of vegetarianism, vis a vis killing of animals, per our post exchange in this thread so far, here’s some insight from Yogani, in lesson 305, that I found applicable:
“Is it necessary to become a strict vegetarian to achieve good health, and be suitably prepared for yoga practices such as deep meditation?
No, it isn’t. All of the suggestions given above can be acted upon within a diet regimen that includes meat and dairy products. It is only a matter of eating in moderation, and favoring the basic guidelines as best we can without throwing our personal preferences out the window. There is no black or white in this. While it seems to be human nature to believe it is so, few things in life are all or nothing.”
By the way, speaking of Swami Lakshmanjoo, he was (very unusually, for a Kashmiri Shaivite) a very strict vegetarian; he wouldn’t visit the home of someone if meat had been consumed within two weeks of his visit.
You know I respect Swami Lakshmanjoo greatly.
He was a strict vegetarian.
I’m not vegetarian.
At a certain point in our opening/awakening, as I’m pretty sure you know – we become inherently confident in however life unfolds in our experience – in a very different way than doubt-producing thinking could ever create.
Obviously, as Jesus said, “By their fruits ye shall know them” … if the effects of this confidence are a sort of personal anarchy, producing chaos all around … then maybe it’s not the dynamic I’m describing.
However, if life unfolds ever more beautifully, peacefully, inclusively and consciously – well, I would say that this comes from dropping any limited view, and trusting life to live us perfectly - which, in my experience it always does, when we let it.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman