Kirtanman,
I have enjoyed reading many of your posts over the years in AYP. I wholeheartedly agree that we are all here to support one another (oops, ‘one another’, dvaita 
). And yes, I know that we are on the same side.
Regards,
Ram.
Looking at this from here, it seems to me there is only one question worth asking about the eating of animals and fish:
Is it kind?
Paul McCartney is credited with saying “If slaughterhouses had glass walls, everybody would be vegetarian”.
It’s not a question of whether one can realise enlightenment (or whatever term is the flavour du jour) - without being vegetarian, it seems clear that it can be done. But still, the question remains:
Is it kind?
Hi Kirtanman,
Thanks for the answers. So would you agree that there are some forms of behaviour that can be useful to someone who is practicing yoga? If Ramana Maharshi is right then vegetarianism could be one of them?
One more question…
What makes you believe that “Advaitic notions… can be a powerful aspect of the map home… even at early stages”? Do you have any evidence that it is true?
Christi
Hi Amoux,
I think that is certainly something which we should consider. Is it kind? The animals themselves are so often left out of the debate on vegetarianism, and it often tends to focus more on health issues for humans.
A sign of the depth of the fall perhaps?
Christi
Hi Christi,
Yes.
I appreciate the way you phrased your question - which allowed me to answer in the affirmative.
“Can be useful” - Yes, definitely.
In fact, “net net” - it might be a powerful enough resource and support for the body-mind, prior to realization, that’s it’s worth at least seriously considering.
I never seriously considered it - but for all I know, I might have made things a bit easier on myself, if I had.
My comments in this thread weren’t so much tied to vegetarianism per se, but more about the conceptual bondage we can create when we make an empirical right or wrong out of something.
To say “this way is absolutely right, and that way is absolutely wrong” simply causes thinking-mind to constrict around itself in ways that are essentially counter-productive to yoga (the practice and the result).
It’s not the behavior that’s of consummate importance - it’s how much, or how little artificial conceptuality is utilized in evaluating our behavior (or that of others).
As Yogani says in various ways - a powerful key is simply to be easy with it all; that’s all I was saying.
What makes you believe that “Advaitic notions… can be a powerful aspect of the map home… even at early stages”? Do you have any evidence that it is true?
Christi
Not a lot, so far - but enough to make that statement. Especially on Facebook, a lot of the discussions take place with people from all levels of spiritual practice, or lack thereof, and some of the more straightforward advaitic teachings regarding mind, concepts, memory, imagination, etc. --- seem to be fairly easily understood by many people in ways that seem to help their clarity, which can only help to abbreviate their sadhana, I would say. And, by the way, when I say "advaita" - I'm not talking about philosophy, but rather pragmatic tips concerning removing barriers to awareness of wholeness (aka advaita, non-duality) that's always already here. Wholeheartedly, Kirtanman :slight_smile:
Christi - ‘the fall’ isn’t ringing any bells with me, unless you mean the Fall of Man?
Firstly, though, I agree with the general feeling that the decision to be vegetarian or not is a personal one. I’m vegan, as mentioned above, and married to a meat-eater. That choice doesn’t affect my love for my spouse in any way at all. That being said, I do have a few observations to make.
As to considering animals, yes indeed, we need to do so. So let me be an advocate for them:
Animals are sentient beings. Biologically, they are our relatives - we have the same source code Would we eat the dead body of a family member? Maybe a distant cousin that we didn’t see that often? Is the idea not repugnant? The wonder (to me) is that it is not equally repugnant to eat the flesh of another sentient being.
The commodification of animals, raised as a cash crop to kill and eat, when there are so many alternatives for our nourishment, seems to me indicative of a deep chasm of separation, and a non-recognition of the oneness of life. The way we exploit animals as a food source is a peculiarly cruel form of enslavement (with no possibility of manumission).
So, for those of us living in samsara, it really boils down to our willingness to see the suffering - to look it in the face - and decided whether we will add to it, or do our best to ameliorate it. And, again, of course this will be a personal decision.
Getting off my soapbox now 
Hi Amoux,
Yes, I was referring to the “Fall of Man”.
That must be a decision for everyone to make, not only those living in samsara.
Christi
Hi Amoux,
p.s.
The Genesis account of human meat eating describes humans as originally being vegetarian and only beginning to eat meat after the great flood when they were punished for their sins against God.
This is Genesis 1:29 and 1:30 from before the flood:
" Then God said, “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air and all the creatures that move on the ground-everything that has the breath of life in it-I give every green plant for food.” And it was so."
And this is the account from after the flood: (Genesis 9:2 and 9:3):
“The fear and dread of you will fall upon all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air, upon every creature that moves along the ground, and upon all the fish of the sea; they are given into your hands. 3 Everything that lives and moves will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything.”
Hence my reference to the fall.
Christi
Hi Kirtanman,
Thanks for clarifying all that.
Christi
That must be a decision for everyone to make, not only those living in samsara.
Christi
Well said - I could not agree more. And thanks for the clarification about the fall :slight_smile:
I remember watching a documentary on Discovery channel (based on a true story) where a group got stranded on a lifeboat in the ocean.
A few weeks later they became hallucinated / crazy with hunger and started eating each other.
I wonder if we all fell the same way during the big flood.
Hi Ram,
Kirtanman,
I have enjoyed reading many of your posts over the years in AYP. I wholeheartedly agree that we are all here to support one another.
Thanks for the kind words, I concur. :slight_smile: Wholeheartedly, Kirtanman
Hi Christi - you’re welcome.
Very interesting recent findings about brain differences between vegetarians, vegans and omnivores:
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0010847
I watched ‘War of the Worlds’ (Tom Cruise) yesterday and it reminded me of this thread.
Aliens planted us (Humans) on this planet and once the population was sufficient, they came down for harvesting.
The earth looked like a bluddy human poultry farm. Aliens were putting humans in cages and drinking our blood/marrow like juice.
Sounds gross?
vegetarian diet is very helpful for yoga practices…even Ramana Mahrashi insisted on it…
but i agree with Carson’s quote:"From my perspective, karma is created by self-judgments. When we do something, even inspite our internal inclination to judge it as “wrong,” we incur negative karma. But if we lose the self-judgment around the action (and I mean REALLY lose the self-judgment not just “trick” ourselves into THINKING we have lost the self-judgment) and just act according to our inclination, we do not incur karma…positive OR negative. "
.
just do what you are intuitively inclined to do and totally and i mean totally forget about it…
Hi Christi, Amoux, and Manigma,
I eat vegetarian since the 1970’s and I agree it’s good for the ability to feel (not just understand verbally) that we’re not isolated from the fate of other living beings. That said, I agree with Yogani on self pacing (Ahimsa toward oneself, avoidance of brute force, just like in other practices); reasonable steps with permanent results are usually faster than a shaky roller-coaster ride (that’s similar to quitting other types of addiction). The change of mindset is just as important as the change in habits.
However, the pacing shall not blur the final aim. A yoga diet is vegetarian & mostly vegan (according to B.K.S. Iyengar, Sivananda, Satyananda, Jivamukti Yoga, and a many other schools). There was a dscussion in another thread here about the pros and cons of garlic, leek, and onion; IMO a negligible issue compared to meat.
In a media society, it’s all about whom you let run the show of your own life: An unconscious “floating downstream”, architected by shopping-mall ads & grandma’s cookery book, or your own, active, thought-through choice. It’s clever to look inward and examine how much of reluctance toward veg food comes from the hazy, a bit embarrassing, feeling of “dropping out” from the mainstream society. IMO that’s where it’s at; most people don’t disagree fundamentally with the 10 commandments or with Yamas & Niyamas, but they still lose their way from time to time. That’s why it’s clever to remind ourselves where we’re going.
dear hathateacher
.
2 things to point out:
1-" A yoga diet is vegetarian & mostly vegan (according to B.K.S. Iyengar, Sivananda, Satyananda,"
i dont know about B.K.S. Iyengar…but Sivanada and Satyananda promoted a lacto vegeterian diet NOT vegan… milk and yogurt is served in their ashrams…
.
2-“the pros and cons of garlic, leek, and onion; IMO a negligible issue compared to meat”
that is true negligible to the bad effect of meat…but still it is much harder to meditate when one has eaten garlic and onions…so better eat them very very moderately …like one shell of onion and a tiny bit of garlic…lol…
Thanks for the correction Maheshwari!
I should have written lactoveg. instead of just veg., about both myself and yoga food (it’s the same in Iyengar’s Light on Yoga too). By “Mostly vegan” I meant that at ashrams, the lacto ingredients are served in small quantities or dilluted in Lassi, dressings etc. - a little more than what you propose for garlic
I must admit that garlic-free ashram weeks haven’t cured my addiction. A long-term garlic-marinated brain notices little difference during meditations there. Some kundalini yoga schools and some zen centers allow garlic and onion, maybe an addict like me shall give one of those a try?
Garlic and onions both eaten here, with immense enjoyment I’m pretty convinced I’m an addict to them too!