“itni shiddat se maine tumhe paane ki koshish ki hai ki har zarre ne mujhe tumse milane ki koshish ki hai…kehte hai agar kisi cheez ko dil se chaaho toh poori kaynath tumhein usse milane ki koshish mein lag jaati hai…kehte hai ki filmon ki tarah hamari zindagi mein bhi end tak sab theek hee ho jaata hai…happys endings…aur agar theek naa ho toh woh the end nahi, picture abhi baaki hai mere dost…”
i desired you so much that every atom/cell of my body cried !!
it is said that if u have a strong desire and a really strong will to achieve something, then the whole universe begins to help you in obtaining it.
and like most movies/films that we see, in life too usually everything becomes alright by the end… happy endings.
and if it’s not… then know that the movie is not yet over my friend.
http://in.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20071116025240AA4YO58
LET MY BREATH MERGE WITH THE COSMIC BREATH, MAY MY BODY BE AS DUST.
O AGNI, SHOW US THE RIGHT PATH, LEAD US TO ETERNAL FREEDOM, THOU WHO KNOWEST ALL. MAY WE NOT BE DIVERTED FROM OUR GOAL, FOR WITH ALL DEVOTION WE SUBMIT OURSELVES TO THEE.
THE THRESHOLD OF REALITY IS VEILED BY GOLDEN LIGHT. REVEAL IT, O LORD, FOR MY DHARMA IS TO KNOW THE TRUTH.
O LORD OF LIGHT, THE KNOWING ONE, THE GOLDEN GUARDIAN, GIVER OF LIFE TO ALL, SPREAD APART THY RAYS, GATHER UP THY BRILLIANCE, THAT I MAY PERCEIVE THY FINEST AND MOST SPLENDROUS NATURE, THAT COSMIC SPIRIT WHICH LIES AT THY HEART. FOR I MYSELF AM THAT!
AUM
PURNAMADAH
PURNAMIDAM
PURNAT PURNAMUDACHYATE
PURNASYA PURNAMADAYA
PURNAMEVA VASHISYATE.
http://www.balbro.com/iam/that13.htm
I skipped answering this earlier and then forgot. Because most vegetables and fruits that I eat come from the plants. But while eating Carrots today I thought that this is not from a plant… hmmmmm…
So I did a bit research over the net and found some info:
The part of a carrot plant that we eat is actually the root. The carrot plant does have flowers which will eventually have seeds, but we don’t eat that part of the carrot plant. Anything that we eat that comes from a root, a stem or a leaf of a plant, that doesn’t produce seeds is called the vegetative parts-we call them vegetables. So carrots, potatoes, lettuce, celery, spinach are true vegetables.
http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/bot00/bot00836.htm
We don’t kill the rice/wheat plant, but take its seed (the rice grains itself) at the time of harvest, when the plant is almost dead, and its seeds (rice grains) are then dispersed to start the next generation.
http://amar.sulekha.com/blog/post/2008/07/do-vegetarians-kill-plants.htm
They just run away I guess.
But I admit that the insects that damage the plants are killed in unorganic farming. But the insects rule this planet. They are more than all the humans and animals combined together. And most of them don’t have a nervous system to feel pain.
I would also like to admit that I do kill the insects like yellow hornets and little ones that bite me.
Its because I am still attached with my body and it hurts when I am bitten. But the day I get permanently detached from my body, I promise you I won’t kill them even if they start feeding on me. But I can’t save the ones who come under my feet. Afterall there is something we call destiny. 
I skipped answering this earlier and then forgot. Because most vegetables and fruits that I eat come from the plants. But while eating Carrots today I thought that this is not from a plant… hmmmmm…
So I did a bit research over the net and found some info:
The part of a carrot plant that we eat is actually the root. The carrot plant does have flowers which will eventually have seeds, but we don’t eat that part of the carrot plant. Anything that we eat that comes from a root, a stem or a leaf of a plant, that doesn’t produce seeds is called the vegetative parts-we call them vegetables. So carrots, potatoes, lettuce, celery, spinach are true vegetables.
http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/bot00/bot00836.htm
We don’t kill the rice/wheat plant, but take its seed (the rice grains itself) at the time of harvest, when the plant is almost dead, and its seeds (rice grains) are then dispersed to start the next generation.
http://amar.sulekha.com/blog/post/2008/07/do-vegetarians-kill-plants.htm
They just run away I guess.
But I admit that the insects that damage the plants are killed in unorganic farming. But the insects rule this planet. They are more than all the humans and animals combined together. And most of them don’t have a nervous system to feel pain.
I would also like to admit that I do kill the insects like yellow hornets and little ones that bite me.
Its because I am still attached with my body and it hurts when I am bitten. But the day I get permanently detached from my body, I promise you I won’t kill them even if they start feeding on me. But I can’t save the ones who come under my feet. Afterall there is something we call destiny.
I was trying to get you to see that everything is not so simple as you make it out to be :wink: Killing is killing, and we all do it everyday. We are spirits living in an animal world! Its just a matter of degrees. Why would you want to let insects bite you? I don't understand that. So essentially, you are saying that you can't wait until your body dies? You are just biding your time until you can escape the confines of the limiting body? Because its "not real"? It is real. Its a physical manifestation of you. us. There is nothing else here, there is nothing outside of us. why not celebrate it while you have it, letting it go when the proper time comes? Keep everything in perspective! the path is a narrow one!
And I was just trying to get you to see that being a Vegetarian is not killing the plants. I hope its clear to you now about what you said:
So do you still consider being a Vegetarian as killing the plants?
Well ofcourse killing is killing. But I don’t think its so complicated to see that killing an animal to eat its flesh is bit more than just killing.
The place where I live has a lot of greenery around and millions of insects and wasps come out in summers. Especially around Full Moon nights. Some are pretty infectious even if they touch your skin. So I avoid the insects bites and to do that I have to kill them before they do it. BTW, I also have a large snake family in my lawn living from a few years.
What I meant by getting permanently detached from my body is that there comes a stage in Witnessing when you are permanently detached from the body. Permanently!
See my post: http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8030
Then you just hover around your body during its lifespan. In that stage of Permanent Witnessing, you don’t feel any hunger, pains, desires… anything that is related with the body. You can remain without eating food as long as you wish. If someone cuts your head off you will just witness it rolling down on the floor.
Its more than death. Its extinction.
So do you still consider being a Vegetarian as killing the plants?
Well ofcourse killing is killing. But I don’t think its so complicated to see that killing an animal to eat its flesh is bit more than just killing.
The place where I live has a lot of greenery around and millions of insects and wasps come out in summers. Especially around Full Moon nights. Some are pretty infectious even if they touch your skin. So I avoid the insects bites and to do that I have to kill them before they do it. BTW, I also have a large snake family in my lawn living from a few years.
What I meant by getting permanently detached from my body is that there comes a stage in Witnessing when you are permanently detached from the body. Permanently!
See my post: http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8030
Then you just hover around your body during its lifespan. In that stage of Permanent Witnessing, you don’t feel any hunger, pains, desires… anything that is related with the body. You can remain without eating food as long as you wish. If someone cuts your head off you will just witness it rolling down on the floor.
Its more than death. Its extinction.
I hope i don't come off as condescending, but you are just going through a stage Manigma. You are not going extinct, i promise! :grin: In regard to the killing + veggies. Vegetarianism is killing. Frutarianism is not. If you eat the fruit of something, the plant lives on. (frutarian) This is eating fruits and nuts and seeds. If you eat the plant itself, the plant dies. (vegetarian/omnivorous) This is eating leaves, roots, and other essential parts of the plant. I don't care if its a goat or a carrot, its killing and the only difference is in degrees. In modern agriculture, when we harvest even the fruit of grasses, there is a veritable massacre. All kinds of animals, snakes, rodents, things that live in ground, are killed by the harvesters. Don't fool yourself, they don't run away. We should all make the choice we feel comfortable with. There are all kinds of arguments for eating/not eating meat. But we should all realize that there is no ultimate right answer. only choice
Where did I say I eat the plant itself???
Anything that we eat that comes from a root, a stem or a leaf of a plant, that doesn’t produce seeds is called the vegetative parts-we call them vegetables. So carrots, potatoes, lettuce, celery, spinach are true vegetables.
Plus carrots don’t have a nervous system like goats/animals!!
And:
So - How DO you grow carrots?
At the supermarket. Look for a carrot with some green top left on it. Cut off the top two inches or so. The stump of carrot should have some leafy parts on it - but it does not need much.
You can either plant the stump in a pot of good potting soil, and keep it moist for a few weeks. New leaves will appear, and under the soil new roots will appear as well. Eventually, if all goes well, in about 12 - 20 weeks, you should be able to harvest some new carrots that have grown from the roots.
http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/bot00/bot00836.htm
Can you do that with a dead goat?
eating the root is eating the plant. eating the leaves is eating the plant.
if you are a frutarian, and therefore only eat fruit/seeds, then by definition you don’t kill what you eat.
of course, as you yourself said, you are still a killer, even if its only insects and such.
all of this is semantics, and in my mind its a pointless argument.
we are all involved in killing. Life on the physical plane, the unreal but actual life that takes place here, is not eternal, its full of death and killing. but does that make it any less important than life lived in the real but not actualized spiritual world?
why would it? When you can live both lives at once!
Hehe… well its not a pointless argument to me yet. I want to go to the roots.
First, killing an animal is way much different from killing a vegetable. Animals have a very developed nervous system than the vegetables.
Second, killing an animal to EAT it is way different from my killing an insect to protect myself from its bite/infection. And I kill just about 10 insects in a year voluntarily. Insects don’t have much developed nervous system either like animals.
Third, you can still grow a harvest from a Carrot available in the supermarket, even though it does not produce seed. You can’t do it with an animal. Otherwise all this animals getting instinct from the face of earth would have stopped.
Fourth, I guess this debate is on what is better… being a vegetarian or non-vegetarian?
And I consider being a Vegetarian is way better for a person who is on a Spiritual Path.
Because in the end its all about love.
I KNOW that:
But still in my heart it is impossible for me to kill an animal to eat it. I consider this as unethical for a human being.
Humans are a symbol of LOVE!
I don’t know how one would feel if their children were being taken away to supermarkets for eating?
Guess I should join PETA.
But still in my heart it is impossible for me to kill an animal to eat it. I consider this as unethical for a human being.
Humans are a symbol of LOVE!
I don’t know how one would feel if their children were being taken away to supermarkets for eating?
Guess I should join PETA.
Hehehe :stuck_out_tongue: Yeah choice is the ultimate good. its your choice and my choice. You know my opinion: its all a matter of degree. I can easily accept another's opinion, however, such as using animals in any fashion (vegan) is wrong. I just dont believe it. I totally respect your opinion that eating animals is wrong. You have to decide what you feel in your heart :sunglasses:
Hi Manigma,
Here’s what Nisargadatta Maharaj has to say about this general topic:
Q: My body influences me deeply. In more than one way my body is my destiny. My character, my moods, the nature of my reactions, my desires and fears – inborn or acquired – they are all based on the body. A little alcohol, some drug or other and all changes. Until the drug wears off I become another man.
M: All this happens because you think yourself to be the body. realise your real self and even drugs will have no power over you.
Q: You smoke?
M: My body kept a few habits which may as well continue till it dies. There is no harm in them.
Q: You eat meat?
M: I was born among meat-eating people and my children are eating meat. I eat very little – and make no fuss.
Q: Meat-eating implies killing.
M: Obviously. I make no claims of consistency. You think absolute consistency is possible; prove it by example. Don’t preach what you do not practise.
And here are a few pertinent words from Ramana Maharshi:
M.: Habit is only adjustment to the environment. It is the mind that matters. The fact is that the mind has been trained to think certain foods tasty and good. The food material is to be had both in vegetarian and non-vegetarian diet equally well. But the mind desires such food as it is accustomed to and considers tasty.
D.: Are there restrictions for the realised man in a similar manner?
M.: No. He is steady and not influenced by the food he takes.
Adyashanti actually picked a recent office location per its proximity to his favorite fast food restaurant (Happy Hound, a hot dog place in Los Gatos, CA).
Jed McKenna writes of eating meat, in his books.
I’ve made some jokes about my own glaringly not-sattvic diet in the past (I haven’t eaten meat since … roughly the time I started this post).
Very Seriously: kudos to you for attempting to deepen your understanding in all areas; your sincerity will surely see you through.
However, please don’t get caught in the web of conflicting ideas (vegetarian, or not; celibate or not; this philosophy, that philosophy, etc.) … these things essentially have nothing at all to do with realization, no matter how many texts may say they do.
All that really has to do with realization is releasing the illusion of the limited self.
It dissolves automatically when we release all investment in ideas, and become truly willing to let life show us what is simply true and actual.
All wrongness is a conceptual idea, an evaluation, and therefore utterly meaningless to realizing truth.
As Abhinavagupta said:
“Neither accept nor reject; simply rest in the true nature of the Self.”
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
Dear Kirtanman, I take issue with most of what you said and quoted. Let's leave the topic of vegetarian and non-vegetarian aside for a minute. Quoting Ramana Maharishi, Nisargadatta Maharaj and Adyashanti (I do not know much about Adyashanti, so I will leave him on the rest of this post) when they speak from their highest advaitic stand point is not going to be useful to seekers who are at the various levels and the discussion involves duality (dvaita). In advaita everything is one. If I read Mandukya Upanishad, I feel that there is no world and everything is an illusion. The world does not exist at all, it only appears to exist. All these lofty notions are only at the theoretical level for me. Once I am practically at the same level as Ramana Maharishi or Nisargadatta Maharaj. I can take a similar attitude towards vegetarianism or any other aspect of life for that matter. Nothing is good or bad in that state. The GOD is immaculate says the Bible. If I can live practically the advaitic life then, I can say, "All wrongness is a conceptual idea". Even that is absurd, since there is no wrongness or rightness once we reach that stage. Before we reach that stage there is no use in making statements like, "All wrongness is a conceptual idea". It can potentially be extremely harmful. There is no wrongness, there is no rightness. Why should I even do my sadhana twice a day. What is sadhana for that matter? Sadhana has no meaning as anything else, if we claim all is illusion. We can not mix advanced jnana yoga and advaitic principles for every simple issues and questions that we come across in our life, based on our convenience. And these lofty advaitic notions are not useful for every one and every situation in my opinion. If we are truly at the stage of Ramana Maharishi or Nisargadatta Maharaj, then there is no need to even say anything. Anything we say even is meaningless. The world as it exists is unreal according to Mandukya. Ramana Maharishi, Nisargadatta, Adi Shankara, Buddha and all their teachings and words are also illusion. What value does it add when we engage in a discussion like that. So, when discussing a practical aspect of life from a stand point of duality (dvaita), mixing advaita and advocating advaita may not be answer for everything. If all is illusion, this world does not exist in the real sense, then there is no need for any discussion, talk, forum, questions or answers. Since we are in the forum, discussing questions, answers, etc., we are already in the mode of duality (dvaita). Mixing the advaita suddenly in between out of context as an answer to every issue and problem does not make much sense to me. I used to be an avid reader of advaita, upanishads, etc. I used to quote from them and advice others based on these principles. And then, I realized later, that I do not have that practical experience of advaita. I am merely repeating what is said in scriptures and by the teachers. This is not very helpful. In fact, this can be extremely harmful for those who are unprepared. It was harmful in my own experience. I read too much advaita, vedanta, krishnamurthy and other philosophies when I was young. I thought I understood them all very well. Later, I realized that they did not help me much at all. They did more harm than good. Everything is illusion, no good, no bad, vegetarian, non-vegetarian do whatever you want. This is not the right way in my opinion. I am not advocating vegetarianism, but I am saying that discipline is needed in the initial stages. We can not talk from the highest advaitic stand point and justify anything and everything. It is very easy to do that. The late Sankaracharya of Kanchi Sri Chandrasekerandra Saraswati said, that one who knows the truth has nothing to say to the world, because he understands every thing is the same(ONE). So, who is saying what to whom, when all is 'ONE'? He also said that one who does not know the truth has no right to advice or preach others. I am not implying that you are advising or preaching here. But I take issue when we answer questions and talk from the highest advaitic stand point for worldly matters which are dvaitic in nature. From the advaitic stand point there is nothing good or bad. Nothing right or wrong. So, there is no need even for any discussions. We are here to help serve each other by sharing our own personal experiences and to progress spiritually. By quoting great advaitic teacher's verbatim from some unknown context, is not going to help any one. I can readily find one thousand compelling quotes for and against vegetarianism online, and present it right here. Such great people of the world like Leonardo da Vinci, Benjamin Franklin, Swami Sivananda, Satguru Sivaya Subramuniyaswami, the late Sankaracharya of Kanci Sri Chandrasekerendra Saraswati, Mahatma Gandhi and many others have made strong arguments for vegetarianism. And you have quoted some other great people who say non-vegetarian is ok, or it does not matter either way. What is the use of these quotes? I can justify murder, rape, child molestation and every other heinous crimes with the logic of advaita and claim everything is illusion, and make the same exact statement that you made, "All wrongness is a conceptual idea". The murderer, the rapist and the child molester are also that one same paramatman (the one great truth or soul) that is inside everyone. But we stay away from those paramatmans and put those paramatmans in prison. Why do we do that? There is a very interesting story that Sri Ramakrishna illustrated to one of his students which comes on his book, "The Gospel of Ramakrishna" to explain that reason. I don't want to elaborate that story here. It is really sad to see that people take advaita and other lofty vedantic notions, and give advice freely to others based on the matters of life, that each one has to resolve according to one's own dharma and the prarabdha karmas. Now, coming back to vegetarion or non-vegetarian, an act is considered as a merit (punya) or sin (papa) based on our own inner conscience and how we feel after commiting that action. There is no single rule for all to justify that vegetarianism is right or otherwise. Every individual is different. If I do an action and my own conscience rebels against that action, and the result is a deep remorse and regret in my own inner bosom, then that action is a sin to me. Some one else can do the same exact action and feel completely contended with themselves. It is not a sin to them. Is consuming non-vegetarian food a punya (merit) or papa (sin), could differ from person to person depending on what stage of evolution they are on. If I kill and eat a cow, and feel completely contended and not disturbed by my conscience, then it is not a sin to me. On the other hand, after eating the cow, if I feel deep remorse, regret and sad, then it definitely is a a sin. Punya (merits) and papa (sins) are not universal and same to everyone. Yogani's talk on Bhakti and Karma yoga confirms this same concept. Quoting advaitic or 'self-proclaimed' advaitic teachers to justify anything and every thing, one way or other, may not add value, or serve the purpose of spiritual progress. Regards, Ram.
RAM,
WHAT YOU SAY MAKES A LOT OF SENSE.
KRISH
This is what tonightsthenight meant as well.
But I would like to share another thought that came while meditating yesterday:
When I feel hungry, its the whole universe expressing its hunger through me.
When I feel loving, its the whole universe expressing its loving through me.
Similarly, all the things that we’ve been doing ever since we came into existence (consciously or unconsciously)… were done as per the Universal Laws of Existence.
“OH EXPANSIVE ONE, RELIGION AND ATHEISM, HAPPINESS AND MISERY (VIRTUE & SIN)-- ALL ARE OF THE MIND, THEY ARE NOT FOR YOU. YOU ARE NOT THE DOER NOR THE ENJOYER.
YOU HAVE ALWAYS BEEN LIBERATED.”
- Ashtavakra - http://www.balbro.com/maha/geeta12.htm
o/
Be still, know!
I agree with all these things. We are all liberated etc.
But most of us still do not practically experience it yet. If we did, we may not even be here on the forums.
The key point that I was trying to make was to justify (for instance the practice of non-vegetarian or vegetarian) practical matters of the life that happens in physical plane with statements like “All wrongness is a conceptual idea”.
Yes all wrongness is a conceptual idea. And all goodness is also a conceptual idea. The author of that post Kirtanman was making that statement to justfity eating meat or to say it does not matter either way.
What is with the quotes from Ramana Maharishi, Nisargadatta Maharaj, Abinava Gupta etc.? I see a lot of these quotes and statements from the masters to justify “this and that” according to our own convience, or to say “nothing matters”. I could care very less about these quotes. Adyashanti chose a place near his favorite hot dog retaurant. Great!!! I could care less, if Adyashanti eats a real dog or snake. What does it matter what Adyashanti eats, and how is it relevant to this post? Since Adyashanti eats hot dog, so it is justified that any one can eat hot dog or meat!!! What is so special about Adyashanti?? This shows blind guru worship. What absurd statements and quotes. Many of the great masters have said to throw away the books and quotes. I am making strong statements here concsiously, and on purpose to make a clear statement.
Actually everything matters until we attain the state of liberation. There is a concrete right and there is a concrete wrong for each individual according to his/her own accumulated karmas. Vegetarian or eating meat is very important according to one’s own dharma and his prarabdha karmas. For that matter when we are at the point in life, where we have to make an important decision about our life/progress, the right and wrong matters (very much). Following one’s own right karma is called dharma. So, one needs to follow one’s dharma. Instead making statements like all wrongness is a conceptual idea and quoting great masters to justify any thing and everything is misleading others in my opinion.
I take a strong opposition to that. We are in no place to say what matters or not matters to some one else unless, we know a whole lot about them including their past karmas, etc.
Hi Ram,
Yes, you are right of course… it is not always helpful to say that there is no good or bad, no right or wrong as these are just concepts. People hearing that could end up doing things that may harm themselves or others, and so prolong their suffering and their spiritual journey. It tends to be something that people say at a certain stage on the path: “there is nothing to do, nowhere to go”, “there is no right or wrong”, or even: “there is nothing you can do to realize the truth”. These things tend to be said by people who have recently shifted their perception from identification with form to identification with pure awareness. This stage is accompanied by experiences such as bliss and freedom.
Beyond this stage, there is a melting down into the heart. This is the rise of compassion and divine love (love which does not place any conditions on it’s existence). With the rise of compassion and love, we no longer would wish to harm another living creature if we didn’t have to, or ask anyone else to harm another living creature. In fact we would go out of our way to help another living creature who is suffering or in danger. So this is the transition from the stage of passive transendentalism (nothing to do, everything is perfect), to an active engagement in the world motivated by love. It is the transition to the stage where you love your neighbour as yourself, because they are yourself (unity). And your neighbour is not just the guy or girl next door, it includes all the people, animals and plants in the world.
Christi
Hi Ram & All,
[quote=“rkishan”]
In reality everything is one; hence Advaitic teachings being a useful model, as long as they are not turned into a fragmented dogma-like philosophy of their own, which happens with all philosophies, as interpreted by some.
Both Ramana and Nisargadatta (as well as Adyashanti, and quite a few others) recognize that the perception of duality occurs within the wholeness (non-duality) of reality, and that students, of course, are going to be learning via conditioned, conceptual (aka dualistic) filters.
And so, Ramana, for instance, describes why and how a vegetarian diet is useful prior to realizing the Self, and why it doesn’t matter one way or the other, after.
Nisargadatta points out the fallacy of focusing solely on the body’s habits (imagine if someone was foolish enough to reject Nisargadatta’s wisdom because he smoked! I imagine, though, that some have done so) — which, again, is good advice for anyone, at the level they can receive it, in my view.
Basically, in my view and experience, some of these advaitic teachings which may not be easy to understand for some beginners, can still serve as useful orientation points (“Ramana says that the reason a vegetarian diet doesn’t matter after realizing the Self, is because the mind is steady — steady mine is that important … hm.”)
Again, you might wish to let them serve as orientation points.
Saying the world is illusory is a common teaching – but the world certainly seems tangible and non-illusory, yes? And so, wherein lies the illusion?
The illusion is in the world as it is conceived prior to realization.
As Ramana taught, reinforcing the concept that the world is illusory is the only way to get the non-realized idea-self to begin to release its deeply-embedded ideas about life and the world — ideas it confuses as the whole of reality, and therefore, with which it blocks the whole of reality.
By relaxing these ideas, we realize the Self/Brahman – and then we realize “the world” as an aspect of the Wholeness we each and all actually ever are now.
As Advaita Vedanta founder Adi Shankara famously said:
brahma satyam jagan mithya
jivo brahmaiva napara
Brahman is the Reality, the universe is an illusion,
The living being is Brahman alone, none else.
Understanding that, with the term “illusion”, sages are referring to the attachment to limited concepts with which we create unenlightenment, is the key to realizing the power of Shankara’s statement, and the power of similar teachings.
Releasing concepts of good and bad now is useful as well; these concepts are one of the fundamental ways we create unenlightenment.
Well, there’s a benefit to looking at that, now.
All wrongness is a conceptual idea.
Kashmir Shaivism teaches of three great illusions with which we create unenlightenment:
Anavamala - the primary illusion of being partial, separate and unwhole.
This gives rise to:
Mayiyamala - the illusion of “I, Me & Mine” with it related fallacious attachments.
This gives rise to:
Karmamala - the illusion of Good & Bad actions; if it benefits “I, Me & Mine”, it’s good; if it’s painful to “I, Me & Mine”, it’s bad … as evaluated by the ego-idea created by confusing the Anavamala illusion as being who we actually are.
Dropping belief in good and bad action (the entire Bhagavad Gita is devoted to helping us do just this) opens the door to dropping belief in I, Me & Mine, which opens the door to dropping belief in being separate, partial and unwhole.
One of the most powerful toolsets, to help us do this, by the way, in my experience, are the daily practices of AYP, including inquiry and samyama.
Please see above.
Well, if you do that, you’ll likely find that taking that concept to the other extreme doesn’t yield a balanced experience, or take you in the direction of greater clarity and less suffering - and it will therefore be a lesson as useful as any other; possibly more so.
The key is to drop ideas - not to spin the idea around 180 degrees so as to make it seem like a new, better idea.
Belief in ideas - confusing ideas with reality - is the way we create unenlightenment.
I agree with this, based on the “our convenience” part of your statement.
Kashmir Shaivism starts at the highest levels, lays everything out for everyone to see, and invites people to start at the level that works for them.
So does AYP.
I have found great value in this approach. It puts more responsibility on the practitioner, sure – but it also gives all of us the opportunity to come home to reality quite quickly in some cases.
I don’t think any of us would want to hold someone back, would we?
I understand. I respectfully disagree.
“Advaitic notions” are some of the clearest indicators, regarding the wholeness we actually are, and so, there can be a deep resonance with them; they can be a powerful aspect of the map home, even at early stages.
The opportunity to realize the value in our own experience – i.e. the only actual value – opens up when we realize that by illusion, they are referring to the conditioned concept-memories with which enlightenment is created, by attaching attention to them, and focusing on them.
We can realize, then, that the opposite movement - releasing attachment to conditioned concept-memories, is how the reality of our wholeness (aka enlightenment, aka non-dual reality, etc.) can be consciously enjoyed.
I would respectfully suggest, per what I’ve said elsewhere in this post, that the view stated above is a misunderstanding of actual advaitic teachings.
Basically, that evaluation/conclusion, is deciding that the map we are following is the wrong color, and focusing on that non-pertinent conclusion … rather than looking at the map (advaitic teachings) and then looking (within) to see where they are directing us to “go” (all the way within).
As the Buddhist saying goes (paraphrasing a little, here) - “When a finger points at the moon, the wise one looks at the moon, and not the finger.”
That may be the difference; I do.
I was fortunate - when I was learning about advaita, I wasn’t active here at the forum, and wasn’t inclined to discuss much, with people in general.
I’ve only started expressing non-dual views since non-dual reality is my experience, now.
I understand that this can happen, and how it can happen; easily.
Sounds like you learned from the experience; excellent.
A few advaitic teachers I like and respect (primarily Jeff Foster, in terms of the example I’m about to give) – were hardcore advaitins; Jeff even tells a story “on himself” of talking with someone in “advaita-speak” - the other person said, “Look, what a beautiful tree!!”
Jeff responded, “What is a tree, and who sees it?”
(Or words to that effect.)
(NOTE: Do not “try this at home” - this is a good way to get strangled, which Jeff might have, had he not been conversing with his own mother, and if he could not run faster than she can!! 
)
I actually heard this story from Jeff on a conference call a few weeks back, and his Mom was on that same call; much fun!
I like to joke (but with an element of truth) that Jeff has “awakened out of his advaitic awakening.”
We can realize our true nature, but if we double-back and attach to concepts - any concepts, even the most “advaitic” - we freeze ourselves in place, 99.999% of the way home — “not recommended”.
They’re not really dvaitic - they just seem that way.
All Is ONE – confusing apparent separation with reality is the only way we can create the dream of unenlightenment within the reality of wholeness that we each and all ever actually are now.
The things discussed here, and most importantly, the AYP practices discussed here, if they are engaged in daily (with allowance for self-pacing), are one of the best ways to know the reality of wholeness in our own experience that have ever been devised.
Correct. However, I know the context well, in both cases, and can support them, by speaking from my own experience (I can attest that both Ramana and Nisargadatta are expressing profound truths, simply and eloquently, in their statements quoted above).
Sure; so could I, if this was about debate, or about using quotes solely as supporting evidence.
This isn’t about debate - Ramana and Nisargadatta just happen to be highly respected, and they say certain things clearly and well, and I can attest, from and in experience, that was they say is valid, valuable and accurate — that’s why I quoted them.
Nisargadatta and Ramana speak from advaitic experience; so do I.
Agreed. Again, I did not quote Nisargadatta for those reasons, but because what they said is true, valid and valuable.
Vegeterianism, like anything else, is a potentially valuable support for some. It may make the road home to wholeness easier for some. However, many people have realized wholeness, who have never been vegetarian (Nisargadatta Maharaj and Adyashanti being two good examples).
I hope my response is useful.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
Hi Ram,
Respectfully:
There is a concrete right and there is a concrete wrong for each individual according to his/her own accumulated concepts.
Belief that karma of various types is something fixed and immutable is just one more way of closing our mind.
I don’t expect you to agree with me; agreement is never pertinent, really.
Only the unbound being-knowing-living which results from knowing our own wholeness is pertinent.
How do we do this?
Practices and observation.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
Hi Ram,
Respectfully:
There is a concrete right and there is a concrete wrong for each individual according to his/her own accumulated concepts.
Belief that karma of various types is something fixed and immutable is just one more way of closing our mind.
I don’t expect you to agree with me; agreement is never pertinent, really.
Only the unbound being-knowing-living which results from knowing our own wholeness is pertinent.
How do we do this?
Practices and observation.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
Dear Kirtanman, I agree with most of what you say if not everything including the advaitic, vedantic and zen thouths. I turly believe in many of the words and quotes that you have made. But, I personally do not have the practical experience of many and do not live in the state of Satchitananda. What I took exception from your posts is that they are not relevant to the point in question. Karma and Dharma are very important and fundamental principles for a spiritual and yogic life. I see that our views vary here. But for seekers who are not established in Satchitananda already, I think Karma and Dharma theories are very relevant. We can not generalize the answers ("All wrongness is a concept") as you did when we are dealing with one particular issue of importance. When one has a severe heart attack and 'needs the medicine within 5 , minutes. Do we give the medicine or say, "Everything is one", Disease, death, body all are same and illusions? The person will be dead in 5 minutes. Some of the issues that we discuss, like the other topic (Addiction) are very serious in nature. I notice that you prescribe the advaita and zen philosophies as a solution to all sorts of issues. I fully agree with you that your advaitic/vedantic/zen statements are true and correct. I do not question the validity of advaita/vedanta or zen. But, at the same time, I disagree with the application of those philosophies as THE solution to different individuals and for all issues of world. Regards, Ram
That may be the difference; I do.
I was fortunate - when I was learning about advaita, I wasn’t active here at the forum, and wasn’t inclined to discuss much, with people in general.
I’ve only started expressing non-dual views since non-dual reality is my experience, now.
Dear Kirtanman, By claiming that you live in the practical experience of Advaita, you essentially are claiming that you are an enlightened master. One who lives in the practical experience of 'oneness' the advaita is revelling in the state of Satchitananda. There is no coming back from that stage. You are liberated. You don't even need the quotes of Adyashanti, Nisargadatta, etc. You can talk from your own experiential state of the oneness (advaita!). Why rely on the quotes of other advaitic teachers, when you have reached the summit yourself. Kudos to you! I have not seen any one else in AYP making the claim that they are enlightened masters (established in the experential state of advaita is enlightenment) here so far including Yogani. I am glad that we have an enlightened master in the midst of us. I would still disagree with your advocation of advaita as a solution to all. Even the great Adi Shankara the proponent of Advaita, promoted bhakti, karma and serveral other ways. He wrote several hymns which are purely related to bhakti. Though he was a strong propenent of advaita and believed that dualism is wrong, he does not preach every common man to practice advaita. Otherwise, why did he establish the Chandra Moulishvara swami in Kanchi and other lingas and worship procedures in his maths and conduct daily poojas? Pooja and worship is only in duality. Why did he sing, "Bhaja govindam"? Why did he write the Kanakadhara strotra, Soundaryalahiri, Subramanya Bhujangam, etc.?
Hi Ram,
That’s fine, of course (your disagreement).
The reason for the seeming universality of my “advaitic recommendations” is my own experience.
However, I well know that this is not everyone’s experience.
And so, if you notice - for instance, in the addiction thread - my recommendations to Clear White Light were to simply stop worrying so much and observe.
If I was operating in the illusions of advaitic philosophy, I might have said something like “Who is there, to be addicted?” … which, per your heart-attack analogy — would indeed not be useful.
From wholeness, it is easy to see that the vacillations of limited mind are very, very close to 100% of the “source code” with which unenlightenment is created.
Communicating this can actually be very helpful – because everyone can begin to realize this, at whatever their current conceptual level may be.
The wholeness we’re seeking is the wholeness we already are – and so, pointers (such as “stop worrying so much, and simply notice”) are as beneficial to early stage practitioners, or those dealing with addiction issues, as for anyone else.
Thinking, worrying, are the very attempted control that the 12 Steps walk one out of … step by step.
You may have heard the early-recovery axiom:
“Our own best thinking got us here.”
(?)
“Like that.”
Ditto vegetarianism – it may be helpful for some, but not for all.
I’m not saying “all wrong is conceptual, and therefore kill animals and eat them” or whatever; not at all.
I’m saying:
There are some clearly realized teachers who eat meat, and who ate meat during their sadhana, so vegetarianism is obviously not an absolute requirement; nothing is an absolute requirement … how could it be?
Unenlightenment is the dream of the sole reality of the relative, which we (wholeness) create by appearing as separate beings … by identifying with the concepts of ourselves as separate beings.
All activities in the physical realm are relative supports.
All beliefs are relative concepts.
When we release the beliefs, we can insightfully recognize the value of the relative supports for ourself, via intuitive awareness much more effective than the constricted barriers called “thinking”.
It’s all so much easier than thinking mind makes it.
Regardless of the issue at hand.
Or heart.
I’m not recommending against pragmatic solutions; if someone is dealing with addiction, and feels that 12 Step might be helpful – by all means, go … but don’t fall into the trap that it’s the only way; that’s just another idea-set that can only be limiting (one that’s infinitely superior, though, of course to the addict’s typical control-refrain “I can handle this!”).
I’m not saying “don’t take clearly-indicated, practical action” - I’m saying “remain open and aware, and you’ll know what to do.”
In this thread, I wasn’t saying “don’t be vegetarian” - I was respectfully disagreeing with Manigma’s assertion that vegetarianism is the only way.
Basically, keeping ego as “out of the way” as possible, in any moment, is always best … because ego is the idea-set with which we block reality.
By locking our mind down around belief — any belief — we block reality in our experience.
In both these threads, where you’ve taken exception to what I’ve written – this has been the essence of my recommendations.
And, I can assure you - they are 100% based in reality.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
Hi Ram,
[quote=“rkishan”]
Originally posted by Kirtanman
Certain teachers express certain things well, and certain teachers also have high name-recognition and respect - and so, quotes can be useful in that regard, I find.
If you read through my post exchange with you tonight, you’ll see that most statements are statements directly from me.
Per comments in other posts, I don’t promote anything - including advaitic views - exclusively.
Whatever I write is just what happens; everything’s like that.
The wholeness writing and reading these words is the same.
Really.
Bhakti, Karma, Tantra - numerous means, supports, methods, can all be useful at times, and for certain people.
That’s an essential key: nothing is fixed; the ego sees ice where reality is flowing, living water.
Dude … I sing Bhaja Govindam … did you notice my username, by chance??
I’m not exclusively advaitic (heck, I’m not even exclusively “I” ).
Maybe try, if you like, reading what I say with a bit more open mind … and see if it doesn’t seem a little different (than the “advaita only” approach you’ve been sure I was taking.)
And, just FYI, if you read through some fairly recent posts of mine, you’ll see that there have been … some “rather extensive” discussions regarding “my” enlightenment, including quite a few opinions of “likely not so much.”
Sitting here smiling as I write this ---- it so doesn’t matter.
There’s only wholeness.
How could I care at all what we call it?
Only wholeness.
It’s just beautiful.
Unspeakably so.
And it’s really, really, really what we all truly are.
If you only take one thing away from everything I’ve written tonight - I recommend the last four sentences above this sentence …
Wholeheartedly.
Kirtanman