What is your definition of Mahamudra? Mahamudra is really about Anuttarayoga Tantra completion/perfection stage practice.
So these kundalini type practices is what I think of, when I hear the term Mahamudra, not your fictitious and fabricated point of view.
So by saying that many people obtained Buddhahood by Mahamudra, you are actually proving my point.
I bow to the Precious Guru Buddha and pray for the blessings and protections of the Dharma Protector.
This discussion between Alwayson and me is not about sectarian or arguing about who is right. Alwayson is sincere, but a little stuck in the mud. Alwayson’s sangha is trying to help him understand that buddhahood is beyond some method. It is the nature of reality, the nature of his mind.
Mahamudra and Dzogchen are not comparable in the sense of one is intellectual (Mahamudra) and one is direct (Dzogchen). Both are equally beyond the intellect, simple, direct and beyond methods or paths. They both deal with nature.
Mahamudra is more child-like and feminine. Dzogchen more adult and masculine. Mahamudra comes from the “Whispered Lineage” and speaks of the “Practice Blessings.” That is soft, innocent and sweet. Dzogchen speaks of the “Cutting Through” and “Crossing Over.” That is manly, strong and sharp. Mahamudra describes meditation “feelings.” Dzogchen describes meditation “visions.” Mahamudra practice deities are feminine, Vajrayogani. Dzogchen practice deities are wrathful. Of course, both have both, but each tends to gravitate more toward one side. Ultimately, both are Tara, Samantabhadra.
From Yeshe Lama: “The key point of Thogal is training in ending body attachment.”
From Flight of the Garuda:
The two text quoted above are Dzogchen texts. Flight of the Garuda never mentions Thogal. Why? Because it is a beginning exercise.
The real meditation is to rest in the Natural State which is non-conceptual, beyond words, awareness open like the sky. In that state, all thoughts, feelings and six senses appear as a magical display. Seeing first hand their illusory nature, you don’t reach, try to grasp or hold. You let go, and the displays naturally dissolve into the Dharmakaya. This is the nature of reality.
All the practice blessing prayers, visualizations, gazes, postures, methods and techniques are like supports, crutches, boosts on the path, because our habit energy is so deeply ingrained, the simplicity of the Natural State eludes us before our mind, even though it is our own mind. We need the lineage, the sangha, the dharma friends to lend us a helping hand, to extend us a rope as we are neck deep in quick sand.
What is your definition of Mahamudra? Mahamudra is really about Anuttarayoga Tantra completion/perfection stage practice.
So these kundalini type practices is what I think of, when I hear the term Mahamudra, not your fictitious and fabricated point of view.
So by saying that many people obtained Buddhahood by Mahamudra, you are actually proving my point.
The following is the point of view of The Kagyu Lineage. Mahamudra = The Unelaborated Unfabricated Natural State = The Dharmakaya = Buddha-Nature
Then from your point of view, Eckhart Tolle and many neo-Advaitins are also practicing Mahamudra, and will become Buddhas.
I think you have an agenda. LONG before you adopted buddhism, as themysticseeker, you would also post constantly about the nature of the mind, Advaita style. Read your old posts. I think you have some sort of deep seated issue.
I hope you realize that Mahamudra = kundalini practice i.e. completion stage practice, before you waste everyone’s time including your own.
I sincerely praise the Three Jewels.
When I went to my lama for the first time, I wanted to learn Six Yogas, tummo and karmamudra. I went there talking about the 3 visions of karmamudra, winds, heart chakra and what not.
My lama spent the next 8 months systematically breaking down my attachment to graded paths and ultimate techniques. These recent posts are not my own special unique point of view. It is the point of view of the Kagyu and Nyingmapa lamas.
Gampopa created the “Five-Fold Path of Mahamudra” as the path system for the monks en mass. 1. Bodhichitta. 2. Guru Yoga. 3. Deity Yoga. 4. Mahamudra. 5. Dedication. This “Path” is for all people of all types and levels.
The special Essence Mahamudra path was only taught to a few disciples, and comes to me through His Holiness Kyabgon Rinpoche, His Eminence Garchen Rinpoche and Lama Drubpon Gonpo Dorje Rinpoche.
What you see in me as a deep-seated issue about the nature of mind, is your deep-seated issue, lack of faith and confidence.
Nowadays, Rinpoche’s will introduce the nature of mind, and when people don’t get it, they will say, “You’re right, that was too simple. Let me show you something at your level, a special complicated hard to master technique.” Then, you will get what you have been chasing after, methods and techniques. Once you recognize mind’s nature, you are reintroduced to the unelaborated meditation.
After my Guru Yoga retreat, there was a special flower that only opens once a year for twenty minutes. After the tzok offering. I went home. As I left, it opened. My dharma friends were blown away and took lots of pictures. The following week I saw this huge plant in the altar room. I asked about it and Rinpoche told me the story. I was all gleeful and petted the plant lovingly and felt pretty special. Then, we had class. After class we always have dinner. I didn’t know this, but Rinpoche put the flower in my soup. After I ate, I asked about it. I was a little disturbed to know I ate the “congratulations flower.” Then, I realized the lesson is, don’t be attached to accomplishments, specialness or any of that.
The real method is no attachment and no focus.
You can waste your own time with stages and paths if you want. I would too, if I wanted to. There are vast numbers of techniques and methods tailored to individuals of all types and tastes. Such is the infinite compassion and skillful means of the Precious Guru Buddha.
Enlightenment depends on The Buddha, Dharma and Sangha and the blessings of the lineage.
Gampopa is the guy who invented the kagyu’s special mahamudra, including essence mahamudra, which is criticized by every other school.
So you DO follow that controversial mahamudra…
Could either of you explain to me, as an interested party, what these controversies are all about vis a vis mahamudra and dzogchen? From my humble perspective, it would seem that enlightenment is fairly absolute: either you achieve it or you don’t. Alwayson, are you saying that there are types of ‘fake’ enlightenment?
gri
Wow I feel so cool now that you called me controversial. Honestly, I’m not aware this is a controversial teaching. It is the essence of all Vajrayana teachings. Gampopa is hardly controversial. More like revered as Youthful Moonlight, a 10th Bhumi disciple of Shakyamuni Buddha who was prophecied to spread the teachings of the King of Samadhi Sutra.
Gampopa is the guy who attained buddhahood who inherited the lineage from Milarepa, because he was his foremost disciple. The entire Kagyu lineage comes from Gampopa. Our lineage is Vajradhara, Tilopa, Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa, Dharma Lord Gampopa, Phagmo Drupa and Lord Jigten Sumgon.
Atleast now I understand where you are coming from. Everything makes sense now, including our dispute about high versus low etc.
I would research Sakya view, or even get a Sakya teacher. You are allowed to have multiple teachers from different lineages, atleast you are supposed to.
Hi alwayson2, Welcome back! Hail Thee Well, Konchok Osel Dorje!
alwayson2, I must thank you again for your fine reccomendation of “Approaching The Great Perfection”, with regard to some of my questions. It is an excellent book, the profundity of which, has in part, prevented me from keeping my promise yet, to discuss it, on another thread. However, perusing a few photocopied pages today I came across some things that might pertain to your discussion, and, as I can see you both have been very busy, I thought I would quote them for you. I think you will each find something to enjoy.
Jigme Lingpa, states in the Treasure Text “Distinguishing the Three Essential Points of The Great Perfection”:
Mind and gnosis are like air and space. Mind is the aspect of deceptive objects of fixation, vividly filling up, swirling round, and pouring out again, or briefly becoming agitated like a hurricane. Its foundation is the condition for the various sensations.
Gnossis is without supports and all-pervasive. In its emptiness it opens up as the spacelike expanse; In its luminosity it is nonconceptual and radient like a polished crystal. Thus the (second) essential point of the Seminal Heart is to hold a secure place in the natural state, Utterly liberated from mind in the expanse of gnosis.
Those who have not realized this say that mind is everything, Divided according to whether it is tainted or untainted by the perception of objects.
Such views, which cannot apprehend the nature, that is like water or quicksilver falling to the ground, Are confused about the place of simultainious liberation, Where the summit of Vajryana makes the result the path…Not to fabricate with ones’ intellect the naked natural state Of ordinariness, the primordial union (of samatha and vipasyana)…
In the future, sentient beings, unsuitable because of thier small merit, Will have great difficulty meeting with a sacred lama.
Because of their feeble prajna, they will not realize the meaning of tantra.
Because of thier small devotion, it will be rare to recieve a mind transmission.
Because of thier inferior intelligence, they will not compehend the essential points of instruction.
Having placed thier confidence in mere hearsay, They will guide the afflicted, having spent no time in the mountains.
…END QUOTE
With Kind Regards, dfb
If I took another teacher it would be a Nyingmapa teacher. Mahamudra and Dzogchen like twin brother and sister. Many Kagyu and Nyingma masters practice both Mahamudra and Dzogchen. But there is really no need to search. I will let things play out naturally. Highest Kagyu teachings are raining down on me. His Holiness Taklung Matul Rinpoche is staying at our center, and I will get to spend a lot of time with him. Many masters are scheduled to come to our center. I’m just enjoying the ride.
Shakbar Rinpoche says that searching for a method outside the natural state is like riding your elephant while searching for its tracks. I highly recommend you read Flight of the Garuda. It is a treasure.
I like how you recommend I go find a new teacher. I recommend you find a teacher. You really need one.
Amen to Divinefurball! That hit’s the nail on the head.
Gri, There is no controversy. I’m trying to help Alwayson dispel his wrong view about the Dharmakaya. But don’t follow what I say, Gri. Ask a lama. Otherwise, look into your own mind. Both is better.
In case anyone is interested, I strongly recommend everyone grab a copy of “Flight of the Garuda” by Shakbar, translation by Keith Dowman. It includes a text by Guru Padmasambhava and Garab Dorje which are root texts of the Dzogchen lineage. It is exactly the Mahamudra view, which is exactly the Dzogchen view, same.
Lol Osel
I was the one who told him to read that book.
Since I am familiar with the natural state, why would I need a teacher?
You contradict yourself.
P.S. regarding your reply to grihastha, there is INDEED a controversy regarding Kagyu Mahamudra, whether you admit it or not.
Lol Osel
I was the one who told him to read that book.
Since I am familiar with the natural state, why would I need a teacher?
You contradict yourself.
P.S. there is INDEED a controversy regarding Kagyu Mahamudra, whether you admit it or not.
All dharma practitioners need a teacher otherwise will you be a prateyakabuddha. Even a 10th bhumi bodhisattva needs a teacher. It's funny how you recommended the book, but he understands it and you don't. Life is like that. "Familiar with the natural state". That is hardly enough. It's like saying you are familiar with gourmet food, because you already smelled it cooking in the kitchen. Based on your responses, it's safe for you to presume that you know nothing about it. You are confusing the natural state with calm abiding. The natural state is not shamatha.
Osel,
How can you possibly know my mindstream?
You just became a Buddhist, and now you know my mindstream?
Just a few months ago, you were talking about Jesus this and Jesus that, and cheezy meditation cd’s LOL
Makes ya wonder, doesn’t it.
Are you actually suggesting you can read my mindstream?
The funny thing, is you don’t know that in Dzogchen, the natural state is a fictional analog of the third vision of thogal.
Now that I know there is a controversy, I feel a lot more confident. I’d hate to be liberated into conformism.