That’s the Bonpo view. There are many tools in Vajrayana path; Thogal is prominent in the Nyingmapa lineage for discovering the natural state. In the Kagyu lineage the oral instructions and Guru Yoga are prominent in discovering the natural state. All these tools are for discovery the natural state as the union of the three Kayas. The Dharmakaya is the nature of mind. The Sambhogakaya is the radiant continuum of mind’s nature. The Nirmanakaya is the union of thoughts/emotions/appearances and emptiness. To achieve Buddhahood in one life, one merely rests in the natural state of spontaneous presence. Practices like Thogal, Tummo and Deity Yoga allow one to recognize the natural state. Yogani’s instructions about DM appear to be very close.
The link is Bonpo point of view, but the what I said about kundalini and thogal is true across mahayana. By the way, Bonpo is like a cross between Gelug, Sakya and Nyingma.
The link is actually reprentative of the Gelug point of view, except the current Dalai Lama who has a slightly different take.
Natural state is not even close to being a Buddha. Says so in many places like the Bardo Thodal. Even third vision of thogal is still light years from being a Buddha.
You don’t even make sense because Buddhahood must be CAUSED.
Secondly, the natural state has nothing to do with action anyway.
I’m pretty sure you are another western victim of Kagyu “sutra mahamudra”
Actually, for me, if this IS the case, Buddhism falls apart. The whole notion of a human being who sets out to achieve enlightenment, succeeds, and then also succeeds in formulating the way that everyone else can achieve it too - that, to me, is the seed-essence of the Buddha.
Btw, what is it about Tibetan Buddhism that brings out the sectarianism? What is this - the 30 Years War?
gri
If you want to talk about that, make a different thread, and Ill be happy to discuss that with you.
By the way, doesn’t your point of view make you sectarian as well?
Especially the way you phrased it…
You are so far from being correct. I barely want to even bother correcting you.
How can Thogal be used across Mahayana when only the Nyingmapa and Bonpo lineages use it? Thogal is strictly a Vajrayana practice limited to Nyingma/Bonpo.
The Nyingma and Kagyu lineages describe the natural state as the Dharmakaya which is identical to the Buddha’s mind. Both teach that Buddhahood is caused by the two accumulations. Just recognizing the natural state is just the beginning, then one progresses through the Four Yogas (Non-distraction, Non-Discrimination, One Taste, Non-Meditation) in the case of Kagyu, or the Four Visions of Thogal in Nyingmpa.
My practice is Essence Mahamudra taught by Lord Jigten Sumgon. The Drikung lineage does not have a Sutra Mahamudra, Karma Kagyu does. You are the victim of trying to figure things out by yourself. You are genuinely confused. It is impossible to decipher lineage teachings from books. Without a Lama, you are going to get rather lost, which is what you are.
When one is directly introduced to the Natural State (cause #1), then removes all doubts about the natural state (cause #2), and then confidently remains in the natural state (cause #3) one attains the path of buddhahood in time. This teaching of Garab Dorje the Nyingmpa nirmanakaya is identical to Mahamudra.
The preparatory Vajrayana practices provide skillful means for the swift accumulation of merit: Refuge, Vow, Guru Yoga, Vajrasattva recitation and Mandala offering. For the swift accumulation of wisdom, one receives the pointing out instructions and other techniques that enhance deep insight like tummo, thogal, phowa, etc. When one rests in the natural state, one becomes skilled in releasing, and emotions, thoughts and most importantly appearances (especially the body) self-liberate in the Dharmakaya. Based on the bodhisattva’s motivation, enlightened activities naturally occur, the vast limitless accumulations of merit that arise by serving the needs of all sentient beings naturally lead to buddhahood.
By the way, doesn't your point of view make you sectarian as well?
Especially the way you phrased it...
Not at all. I’m still pretty ecumenical… No, I’m on the way IN to Vajrayana, and I’m simply expressing my surprise at the amount of name-calling I’m finding in the Sangha. I’ve yet to take a position here.
I confess: I don’t, ultimately, give a monkey’s about the difference between Rainbow Body and Rainbow Jalu. I simply want to realize the nature of my mind.
gri
Nothing can make Buddhism fall apart. The Dharmakaya is the nature of your mind whether you see it or not. Your karmic obscurations (lack of ripeness due to confusion) prevent your ability recognize it. The Natural State is just that, mind’s actual real mode of being; its nature. That nature can never be defiled or obscured; you either are or are not confused. Alwayson is confused and needs the pointing out instructions and Guru Yoga.
The Dharmakaya is INDEED our own mindstreams, but without the cognitive obscuration.
How do you get rid of the cognitive obscuration?
Only through kundalini and thogal
Its funny that you think you are the only one to have realized the natural state.
I realized the natural state 100% more than two years ago by playing with various insight techniques, some of my own invention which I later found to be real techniques. I never even did any seated meditation, so I knew I discovered something precious.
Now it’s fun.
Okay, All Vajrayana schools recognize Dzogchen and Mahamudra. That’s true. If you want original Mahamudra, you need Kagyu. Original Dzogchen, Nyingmapa.
a) Tummo is a supplementary practice on the path. Swift progress in accumulation of wisdom requires skillful means. Tummo is just one. Remember, not all practitioners are equal. Some only need the pointing out instructions and proceed instantaneously to buddhahood. There are different classes of students, instantaneous, skipping the grades and gradual. Tummo is a method of attaining a powerful sense of well-being, which is shamatha. The pointing out instructions provide the means for vipashyana in that excellent tummo shamatha.
b) Milarepa practiced tummo early in his career, along with Deity Yoga and many others. He kept Guru Yoga and Mahamudra in his later days. He achieved enlightenment by Karma Mudra with the Five Long Life Sisters who are now the Dharma Protectors of the Kagyu Lineage. He regarded karmamudra as inferior to Mahamudra. He gave karmamudra to Rechungpa, his lesser disciple. He gave Essence Mahamudra to Gampopa which included tummo.
The Fourth Yoga of Mahamudra, Non-Meditation is buddhahood. If you are referring to Clarifying the Natural State, by Dakpo Tashi Namgyal, then you will see that each Yoga has three stages. The 3rd phase of the 4th Yoga is complete Buddhahood.
I never said the natural state was a thing or an action. Non-action is the “action” of the View, Practice, Action. The View is emptiness. The Practice is resting in the unelaborated stated without accepting or rejecting.
Thogal is not a doing either. It is a non-doing (View, Practice, Action) in certain lighting conditions. It too is a way to return to the natural state.
Buddhahood is not produced. It is not created. Your obscurations are produced by your confusion. The Vajrayana practices purify those. Once they are fully purified using the skillful means, one returns to the natural state, Buddhahood. To become a Nirmanakaya, etc., is based on one’s motivation and is a spontaneous response to the needs of sentient beings. Because the Natural State and the Dharmakaya are the same, confusion is simply liberated. The Teacher is a reflection of our own aspirations, without Samsara, there would be no need.
The Four Yogas are not the sum total of the Mahamudra path; they are the essence of it. All the other practices supplement, and speed up progress on the path. Nothing is produced by they practices. As Yogani says it, pressure wash away your obstructions. In the Buddhist sense, these practices all use galactic forces to annihilate obscurations, the maras, wrong views and obstacles.
There is nothing beyond the natural state, which is why, if you skip to tummo or thogal before you have stabilized the natural state to some degree, after practicing Guru Yoga, Vajrasattva and Mandala, you will be wasting your time.
Osel,
There must be some delay, because I deleted that post and created a new one.
Please address this new post. It should be above your last reply.
I never said I realized the natural state. I claim no accomplishment. Whatever I have realized is not deep. I have many obscurations that bedevil me. I ask for the blessings of the Guru Buddha and the Dharma Protectors.
You don’t get rid of cognitive obscurations ONLY through Thogal or tummo. You ONLY get rid of them as self-liberation in the Natural State. In the Natural State, you KNOW all appearances are just illusory displays, and do not hesitate to release them back into the Dharmakaya. Thogal and tummo provide an experience of a drastic separation of the natural state from appearances so that one can continue in the natural state without doubt. One’s experience of the radiance of the natural state, gives one conviction in the illusory quality of appearances. The key point of these practices is to end clinging to the physical body. Ultimately one has conviction that appearances are nothing other than Dharmakaya.
Thogal, tummo, karmamudra, vajrasattva, mandala, etc., etc., are all just means of pressing the fast forward button; or the high pressure wash, vs. the regular rinse cycle.
I think I pinpointed your confusion.
You think that Buddhahood is obtained by self-liberation into the natural state. This is only true of thogal. This is why Dzogchen was banned from Nalanda monastery in ancient times, because Dzogchen claims to be a vehicle beyond causes.
Buddhahood is actually caused in every other teaching besides Dzogchen, viz a vis buddhist cause and effect.
So unless you are practicing thogal, you cannot speak of Buddhahood being self-liberation.
Moreover, the self-liberation of Dzogchen is into the five wisdom lights (of thogal), not merely the nature of the mind. This is also why Dzogchen claims to be beyond mind.
You pinpointed your confusion. Both Mahamudra and Dzogchen and Chod and all other systems dealing with the Natural State are the same. Self-liberation in the Dharmakaya. The five wisdom lights are metaphors for purified afflictive emotions and the corresponding five wisdoms. Just like there’s no lasso. These are symbolic of the natural state and the seeing.
The five wisdom lights are not metaphors. You see them visually with the eyes during thogal practice. They are the key to the self-liberation of Dzogchen.
If Dzogchen is same as Mahamudra, why was it banned from Nalanda?
Why is thogal so unlike anything else?
Please reread my post and actually address my points without diverting the topic to the natural state.
Noone is arguing with you about the self-liberating nature of the natural state into the dharmakaya/mindstream.
And I even agree the natural state is the same between Dzogchen, Chod, Mahamudra.
Buddhahood itself though is NOT obtained by self-liberation, except in Dzogchen.
My lama is giving me a detailed lecture on this.
I don’t know why Dzogchen it was banned from Nalanda, politics probably; perhaps because some Dzogchen practioners think Thogal is the highest practice. Careful reading of Yeshe Lama and Clarifying the Natural State proves that Four Visions and Four Yogas are analogous. The stages are analogues.
Your statement,
assumes there is mere natural state which is surpassed by the five wisdom lights. That is not the case. “Wisdom lights” are the radiance of the Dharmakaya, aka, the Sambhogakaya. The Sambhogakaya is a mere reflection of the Dharmakaya. Though, in essence all is Dharmakaya. All is emptiness.
Buddhahood=motivation+fully purified obscurations.
The highest practitioner don’t need any breath yoga, visualization, tummo, thogal, because they take the dharmakaya as the path. All the 88 Mahasiddhas were like this.
Medium and low level practitioner need techniques like tummo, karma mudra, thogal, etc.
From the Gangaha Mahamudra
Crucial wind technique = tummo. Yogic gaze = Thogal. Consort = Karma Mudra.
Karma Mudra also states it is the supreme method and there are also visions of lights. Karma Mudra is a low level practice and is similar to Hindu Yoga, to experience the non-essence of desire which is a course, crude practice. Tummo is analogous to karmamudra; one visualizes consort practice in kumbhaka and attains strong happiness and warmth.
Mahamudra = Dharmakaya = Supreme king of meditations. Dzogchen is the same.
Thogal is the means to attain the view of the Great Perfection. It is an introductory practice on a Dzogchen retreat along with tummo.
Kundalini, Thogal, etc., are misunderstood to be the highest practices. The highest practice is the blessings of the interdependent relationship of master, student and sangha, Guru Yoga and the King of Meditations.
“assumes there is mere natural state which is surpassed by the five wisdom lights.”
Wisdom lights exist, and they are beyond the mind, as the mind is merely a wind in the body. Thats a crucial point you don’t seem to understand.
The mind is simply a wind in the body. Wisdom lights shine out from the heart chakra into the eyes. Thats why trechod i.e. mental relaxation is necessary. The mind wind obscures the vision analougous to fog.
The mind being a wind, is also how kundalni type practices work. You basically dislodge the mind wind…so to speak
“The highest practitioner don’t need any breath yoga, visualization, tummo, thogal, because they take the dharmakaya as the path. All the 88 Mahasiddhas were like this.”
In all Dzogchen practice texts, which I have read many, it says that high capacity practitioners uses thogal, medium capacity uses bardo, and low capacity uses phowa. It is cliche. You KNOW this is true.
Stop suggesting you can become a Buddha simply by abiding in the natural state. It may be true, but only at DEATH, will you obtain Buddahood. This would be a MEDIUM level approach according to Dzogchen, not a high level. High level is becoming Buddha while alive via thogal.
My high is your low and vice versa. What you call wisdom lights beyond mind, I call the continuous radiance of mind’s real nature. What you call a wind, I call attachment. What you call the heart chakra, I call ultimate bodhichitta. What you call the eyes, I call the unity of form and Dharmakaya.
Gampopa achieved Buddhahood in life with Guru Yoga and Mahamudra. So did Phagmo Drupa, Lord Jigten Sumgon and thousands of other Kagyu Lamas.
I suggest you read Shakbar Rinpoche’s “Flight of the Garuda.” Of course you should practice Thogal if that what you want, but you shouldn’t do it until you receive the oral instructions in person, prior to entering retreat. You won’t get the real teachings from a book. Carry on.
Hi all,
There was a time when the Buddha was alive when he was living in a region of northern India with many monks. The monks began to argue with each other, over different philosophical aspects of the Buddha’s teachings. The monks broke into two factions, with one faction becoming attached to one point of view, and another faction holding firmly to another point of view. They bickered amongst each other constantly every day, trying to be the one’s who were right.
The Buddha asked them to stop fighting amongst themselves explaining to them that they would not find peace and truth through pointless debate. But the monks did not listen and carried on arguing, gradually becoming more and more attached to their own viewpoint. Again the Buddha asked them to stop it, but they were not interested in anything he had to say. So the Buddha said: “O.K. I’m leaving”, and he left with a few of his monks. Most remained behind to continue the infighting. The next day they went out on their alms round to collect food, but the village people would not give them anything. They said that they had driven the Buddha away with their pointless bickering, and now they would no longer feed them.
Suddenly, all the monks decided that their argument was not really that important, and that in fact food was more important and they ran to catch up with the Buddha and apologise for their lack of wisdom.
This story is recorded in the Pali Cannon. Unfortunately the Buddha is no longer alive and the bickering between different Buddhist schools is worse now than ever. We no longer have the Buddha around to remind us of what the Dharma and the Holy life are really about, so we have to work it out for ourselves.
Surrender, humility, love, service, silence, benediction, grace.
First of all, the swords have to be laid down.
Christi
alwayson, i really can’t agree with you here. the realization of Dzogchen is not higher than Mahamudra. I suggest you read Crystal and the Way of Light. its very good. and also understand that Tibetan lineages have a tendency for exaggerating and having a superiority complex.
i’m no expert, i’ll be receiving transmission from ChNN soon and will learn more about all this. and I might learn from Drikung Kagyu lineage as well, as there is a Lama living close by who is a lineage holder of both Mahamudra and the Drikung Dzogchen lineage (Yangzab)
i do think Kalu Rinpoche said that Mahamudra practitioners can attain Rainbow body. I know I said before that other traditions don’t attain Rainbow body directly, because of the proper cause wasn’t there, I never said that I thought Rainbow body was the highest realization. I’m still not sure what to think about that.
but it is worth mentioning that Buddhahood or Total Realization in Dzogchen is realizing the Dharmakaya, or Zhi (base) in Tibetan, (which just seems like Emptiness) but also manifesting infinitely through Sambhogakaya and Nirmanakaya forms to help beings. like the Sun shining light, rays of compassion shine forth. but is this ability natural? or does it have to be developed through practices like Thogal? well thats the question then. just throwing out an idea here, the whole Tibetan way of Tantra is about speeding up the process by using methods that do what would already naturally occur. for example Kundalini or Thigle naturally awakens through practice but in Tantra you forcefully awaken it to speed up the process. maybe it’s just the same thing, maybe Rainbow body naturally manifests once one has sufficient clarity of Dharmakaya, but in Dzogchen we help that process along. I don’t know, just thinking aloud 
I think they are different approaches. Mahamudra is more gradual, more intellectual, while Dzogchen is very direct and doesn’t intellectualize all that much.
I do not see where I claimed that realization of Dzogchen is higher than Mahamudra.
I merely pointed out the FACT, that Dzogchen is the only Vajrayana teaching that claims that it is beyond buddhist cause and effeect.