The beasts of the field have their dens and nests. The Son of Man has no where to lay his head.
The lineage teachings are powerful indeed. My retreat changed my life. Nothing like 112 hours of meditation in 7-days to change the quality of one’s mind.
Osel,
Read my posts from about two years ago on Esanga, under “alwayson.”
You will see that I thought I was enlightened. And I do talk quite a lot about the natural state, like you do now.
Its quite funny.
Maybe you should go back and read them. I don’t claim to be enlightened. You appear to have gotten sidetracked, which is the danger of self-study of high dharma, because the texts must be demonstrated by a teacher. I have teachers, full oral transmission, personal meditation instruction in retreat and mind transmission in retreat. The natural state is the meditation; it is something you must stay with for a long time. A one time glimpse is nothing special. Garab Dorje: 1) Direction introduction into the natural state; 2) Dispel all doubts about the natural state; 3) Continue confidently in the natural state.
Buddhahood arises from the natural state as a natural function of one’s bodhisattva aspiration. As one purifies obscurations by releasing into the dharmakaya, one also actualizes the potential of the buddha-nature. Ultimately one fully purifies confusion, one obtains the common siddhis and the special accomplishment of omniscience and the ability to manifest anything according to the needs of sentient beings.
There is no such thing as a natural state.
It is a fiction. It is like bigfoot. Actually I think bigfoot is more real.
So it cannot produce Buddhahood.
Buddhahood needs to be caused via dependent origination. This is even how thogal works. But with thogal, they talk about it reversing dependent origination. This is the only Buddhahood obtained by self-liberation.
Even empowerments work by dependent origination.
I do not subscribe to your essence Mahamudra. Heck even one famous ancient Kagyu master admitted it was a scam. And there are numerous Sakya criticisms. You might as well practice Zen.
There is nothing more to say. Peace.
Hi again, Konchok Osel Dorje and alwayson2. Since you both found those last quotes so usefull, I thought I might contribute a few more that seem related:
In this degenerate age, Great Perfection meditators, because of thier confusion about the essential points of ground, path, and result, are biased toward the particular meditation and view that they maintain; Thus liberation from the fetters of supposition is as rare as stars {at daytime}…
If you become aware of the sudden arising of discursive thought and try to maintain the continuity of this, this is vipasyana straying into the condition. If you bind post-meditation with names, you will impede yourself, and thoughts and emotions will not be liberated as the dharmakaya. You should cut of this tendancy at the root.
In gnosis, unelaborated from the beginning, the terms, View, Meditation, and Activity, and grasping at them, are cleared away as being groundless. Not falling into the extreams of good, bad, or neutral discursive thought, you will not be a scholar who distinguishes arising and liberation.
As long as gnostic awareness does not stray from its station, there is no need for anything above this. Even if you meet with a hundred scholars and a thousand siddhas, ten thousand translators and panditas, a hundred thousand instructions, and ten million sciences, there will be no need to cut off doubt…This is it. This is it. END QUOTE
Kind Regards, dfb
I’m not asking you to subscribe to Kagyu teachings. You completely misunderstand the Vajrayana path.
There are all kinds of criticisms of every lineage by every lineage. They don’t matter. Every lineage has some so-called master that blasts the lineage. That’s just the nature of group dynamics. No serious dharma practitioner would EVER call another lineage a scam. Zen is not a scam. Hinduism is not a scam. The Western religions are not a scam. No path is a scam.
The Natural State is another word for Emptiness, the Dharmakaya. It is the cornerstone of Mahayana and Vajrayana. Dependent origination is the Buddha’s teaching in the First Turning. There are volumes of texts, and personal experiences of recognized masters who affirm the Emptiness as a personal meditation. You claimed to be a Dzogchen practitioner, but all Dzogchen lamas affirm the Natural State. Buddhahood arises interdependent with teacher, student, teachings and six paramitas.
I see that you have made up your mind. At least you have your certainty. I’m just clarifying for posterity.
I wrongly assumed you knew that Zen is pure sutra Mahayana.
Now with this new understanding, you will see I was saying that your special Mahamudra does not introduce anything special over the Mahayana sutras. And if it does not go beyond the Mahayana sutras…I am sure you can figure it out.
Thus I was not slamming Zen…for posterity purposes.
And the natural state is not synonymous with emptiness.
You only get direct experience with emptiness with third vision of thogal, or equivalent bhumi level, which is a combination of first and eight bhumi.
This is the reason why it is said to look for a Dzogchen teacher who has reached the third vision.
Now that I cleared up these loose ends, I am really gone…for a while…Muhahahaha
hi Dorje, I sent you an email 
alwayson, you gotta understand brother that different schools have different points of view. no school of Buddhism really disagrees with each other. the view just may be different. like the view of Gelug is of the start of the path, more focused on the relative aspects such as Bodhicitta, while Nyingma and Dzogchen have the fruit as the path so thats why its called beyond cause and effect since from the eagle eye view there is no cause and effect because theres truly no self that causes anything. Sakyas tend to stay in the middle, and Kagyus I don’t know. probably closer to Dzogchen view but also more relative as well.
so from the relative pov, yes Buddhahood is generated by cause and effect, but that doesn’t mean that Buddhahood is a state thats created, manufactured. according to Dzogchen the natural state is always there, it is eternal and unmanufactured, it is beyond cause and effect. this is a different view. no argument.
and I really don’t see anything wrong with Essence Mahamudra. Tibetans really don’t disagree on much, each school is just a different approach to the same realization. they disagree on approaches but not on realization of a certain lineage. the only criticisms I’ve heard of Essence Mahamudra is that there aren’t enough methods used to properly speed up the process by clearing the central channel. its regarded by some as a slow path because it lacks any gTummo or other practices. if the practitioner doesn’t get the introduction, I think its a graded system of shamata and vipashyana. could be wrong. but anyway, rarely is Mahamudra taught separate from completion practices.
this is a good discussion on the topic of Dzogchen, Vajrayana and Mahamudra
http://www.lioncity.net/buddhism/index.php?showtopic=38200
You are putting words in my mouth and agreeing with yourself. Mahamudra and Dzogchen are the essence of the Vajrayana path. Sutra Mahayana do not have the lineage for transmission of the natural state. The Pith Instructions go way beyond the Sutras. Sutras are the Buddha’s teachings about reality, they are not instructions. Zen practices close the senses. Vajrayana is open to all phenomena.
Dzogchen does not admit the natural state is fictitious. One would only assert that when one looks for the nature of mind, one cannot find anything, in not seeing, one realizes all is emptiness.<-Mahamudra Yet, there is a total presence <-Dzogchen. Thus, the natural state is neither existent or not existent. It is certainly NOT fictitious. Consider the Dharma Protectors next you time you utter that slander. You are accumulating very negative karma, really. Any Lama will tell you not to slander the teachings.
Whether you call the natural state Sem or Rigpa, all are empty. You clearly have no idea what the Vajrayana lineages think, especially the Nyingmapa lineage which holds the Dzogchen transmission. You need to read Longchenpa, Garab Dorje and the other lineage gurus in Nyingmapa to clear up your wrong view. Read the Autobiography of Shakbar to learn about the life of a true Dzogchen yogi of recent history. Read Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche’s works to understand the modern Nyingmapa lama’s writings.
I bow to the Dharma Protectors and the root and lineage gurus. Please forgive me for revealing this text, which I feel must be done to destroy wrong views.
From the highest Dzogchen text, Yeshe Lama on the Third Vision of Thogal:
From a high Mahamudra text, Lamp of Mahamudra on the Third Yoga of One Taste:
That actually does settle the matter. As you can see, these stages are IDENTICAL. But wait, I’ll give you more of Yeshe Lama on the Third Vision of Thogal:
Then it gets technical about the appearances of the siddhis and the kayas. Mahamudra texts do this too. I don’t have time to type it all.
The Third Vision of Thogal is Mahamudra’s Third Yoga of One Taste. Dzogchen and Mahamudra are exactly the same thing.
Mikael, Mahamudra is not more intellectual than Dzogchen. Dzogchen is not highest. Mahamudra and Dzogchen and Chod are exact same. Essence Mahamudra is for practitioners who don’t need tummo. It’s slow for some, but faster for others. In the natural state, the kundalini naturally rises and ecstatic energy bursts up with no effort at all; it depends on one’s faith, realization and trust in the guru’s transmission.
Mikael thanks for the link. Alwayson, I figured you out. You want to be Namdrol at E-Sangha. He makes the Sakya lineage sound like it’s the best. In fact, I can’t tell the difference between him and you, except he apparently knows detailed scholarly knowledge. I also understand why you think I should find a Sakya teacher. I also now understand why you disagree with Nyingmapa’s Dzogchen’s teachings. The Sakyas have their own view of Mahamudra and Dzogchen. Now I get why you and I will never ever agree. Namdro’s scholarly debates about the origins of this and that practice from Jnanakirti and Sakya Pandita don’t me squat to me. All his talk about empowerments and tantric steps is not based on his own experience in retreat. It is based on his reading of the texts, like yours. Milarepa gave long teachings about avoiding scholars on the path. You cling to scholarly debates, instead of just resting in the natural state of purity. I read about and follow yogis. The Kagyu teachings have their origin first with the King of Samadhi Sutra, then the Uttara Tantra, then the Gangaha Mahamudra Upadesa, then the Oral Instructions. My experience does not depend on textual analysis. It depends on faith in my guru. My use of texts is just illustrative. They are not important, except for Gampopa’s Jewel Ornament of Liberation, the Gangaha Mahamudra Upadesha and Hundred Thousand Songs of Milarepa, because that’s all my guru uses. The other teachings come from demonstration.
Thanks to Mikael’s link I have a better understanding of how all the lineages break up the stages. It’s also clear to me after reading all the e-sangha explanations that I’ve received the 4th Empowerment. I received pointing out instructions very early on. Creation and Completion stages are combined in Guru Yoga, which involves deity visualization and is tantric. I received a mind transmission in retreat which blew me away. The blessings of this practice cause the blissful kundalini experiences to arise spontaneously without effort. But the bliss is not important.
My path is Refuge, Pointing Out Instructions, Transmission of Upadesha, Guru Yoga, Vajrasattva, Mandala and Essence Mahamudra. No long prostrations, Six Yogas, Tummo or anything else. Mainly Guru Yoga which is tantric and Mahamudra which is unelaborated. Because I was given detailed and repeated pointing out instructions, not a graded approach of shamatha and vipashyana, Drubpon Rinpoche taught me Essence Mahamudra.
I’m not surprised this debate finally came down to e-sangha. That place is a real poisoned chalice as far as a free mingling of Buddhist thought and approach is concerned.
But thanks everyone for a lively and stimulating discussion, as they say… I’m particularly grateful for the clarifications re Dzogchen and Mahamudra. Thanks for the dharma friendliness, however rancorous!
Emaho!
gri
It only seems rancorous in writing. I smile and laugh all the while. I avoid e-sangha like the plague. I see why this discussion was like this.
Osel I sent you an email
By the way, the only reason why I recommended Sakya, is that their Mahamudra is pure anuttarayoga only.
That is just fact, whether you accept it or not. It has nothing to do with Esangha.
Hear, hear, though I assume you meant that there is no such thing as THE natural state, ie a reified state we have to seek and be introduced to. There is a natural state, but it doesn’t need mentioning because we are always already in it. How could we be otherwise? It is the construct that there is an unnatural state, and therefore that we have to change and find some other state, which leads us all into this game. It is an expression of unhappiness, of alienation, of not wanting to be ordinary, of our wanting to be special.
Our constructs of gods and states and specialness, and our projection of them onto others whom we then follow, can be useful, since if they are skilfully designed, they can over time dissolve our imaginary self-separation and allow us to realise we were ok all along.
You all know this anyway, I guess, you guys just got hooked up on the fun of debate, and why not?! It was fun to watch too. Thank you all!
I am not interested in pure anuttarayoga. I am interested in the blessings of the Whispered Lineage and the Precious Guru Buddha which is inseparably merged with my body, speech and mind.
Precise textual accuracy is not important to me. Milarepa is illiterate and attained buddhahood in dependence on his faith in the guru and pith instructions and his own profound experience. I follow that lineage and that model.
Several scholars from the Sakya lineage threw dirt in Milarepa’s face and called him a devil and heretic. He debated by walking through walls, bouncing boulders around on his finger, reading their minds and exposing their crimes.
Hear, hear, though I assume you meant that there is no such thing as THE natural state, ie a reified state we have to seek and be introduced to. There is a natural state, but it doesn’t need mentioning because we are always already in it. How could we be otherwise? It is the construct that there is an unnatural state, and therefore that we have to change and find some other state, which leads us all into this game. It is an expression of unhappiness, of alienation, of not wanting to be ordinary, of our wanting to be special.
Our constructs of gods and states and specialness, and our projection of them onto others whom we then follow, can be useful, since if they are skilfully designed, they can over time dissolve our imaginary self-separation and allow us to realise we were ok all along.
You all know this anyway, I guess, you guys just got hooked up on the fun of debate, and why not?! It was fun to watch too. Thank you all!
Mind is forever dharmakaya. It is always already the natural state. The confused projections of ignorance and attachment generate a false sense of reality, an illusion. Because the illusion is not real, there is nothing to put down, or release. Based on the Buddha, Dharma and Sangha, specifically the inner Buddha-nature, once we rest in the natural state, the qualities of a buddha naturally arise from our love, bodhicitta (compassion), and altruistic aspirations. These qualities are not projects they are the reflection of the desires of suffering sentient beings to be happy and liberated from suffering.
I am sorry, but there is a major untruth here, so I must clarify for the bystanders.
Thanks for your patience.
Essence Mahamudra was created AFTER Milarepa. Milarepa himself used anuttarayoga. So to follow in Milarepa’s example, you would use anuttarayoga.
Kagyus do indeed have anuttarayoga apart from their “essence Mahamudra.” The only thing is that they do not teach it to Westerners.
Sakyas have NOTHING to do with the above facts.
Hi all, some more helpfull words from Jigme Lingpa:
Because objects of knowledge are unelaborated and do not manifest as substantial things, it is not possible to estimate the capability of changable mindstreams.
He who discourages others, saying that they are not of a liniage that can be of benifit, makes those with the qualities of scripture and realization lose heart.
And yet the sun’s rays of dependant origination, which bring together the true condition and the field of accumulations, will never be the object of negation for anyone. With this the secret yogins reduce the weariness in thier hearts…
Fortunate ones who are gathered here, brothers and sisters, mothers and fathers: maintain your own spacious state in a relaxed way, the union of gnosis and emptiness in which there is no attachment to samsara, and set out together toward liberation in the original grounds expanse.
Even this vajra song is like the play of optical illusions. END QUOTE
With Best Wishes To All, dfb
That is partly correct. I just spoke with my Lama for clarifications. I am learning Essence Mahamudra. It does come from Milarepa. Essence Mahmudra is distinct because one has abbreviated ngondro. One may practice Mahamudra after receiving the Pith Instructions. There is a mind transmission at the Guru Yoga retreat. There is a Deity Yoga component which comes later. However, it is indeed taught to Westerners. At least it will be in my case.
[/quote]
Mind is forever dharmakaya. It is always already the natural state. The confused projections of ignorance and attachment generate a false sense of reality, an illusion. Because the illusion is not real, there is nothing to put down, or release. Based on the Buddha, Dharma and Sangha, specifically the inner Buddha-nature, once we rest in the natural state, the qualities of a buddha naturally arise from our love, bodhicitta (compassion), and altruistic aspirations. These qualities are not projects they are the reflection of the desires of suffering sentient beings to be happy and liberated from suffering.
[/quote]
Thank you for your translation into ‘Buddhese’, but the point I am so ineffectively making is that these technical traditional languages are entirely constructs, and that the only thing that matters is our own experience. Getting hooked into the special technical languages, and the infinite variety of schools’ disputes within them, brings enjoyable debate but also ceaseless confusion. They are only ever a reflection of what we seek, and even more confusingly they mean different things to us at different stages on the path (if they didn’t they wouldn’t be much use to us). When our seeking ends, so the special languages fall away. We may still use them to help others, but we will be aware of their capacity to confuse and obfuscate. If we are not so aware, we risk using them only for our own power.
I am not being critical, because it has been a highly stimulating technical debate, and no doubt enjoined for all the right reasons by a group who share a similar level of understanding. I am just entering a note of caution about how important or otherwise the fine distinctions may be, as the temperature of the debate rises!
‘If you meet the Buddha, kill him’ as they say.