Self-Pacing Question -- Sleep-Related

[Kirtanman (Doug Sandlin)]

Hello & Namaste All,
In the last few weeks, my practice has kicked into even higher gear, in terms of the amounts of ecstatic energy I am “running”, and drawn to run (per the following details).
All in all, a definite positive – and one I attribute very much to attainment of Kechari Stage 2!
I’m still barely in Stage 2 (tongue sits on top of soft palate “flap”, but tongue doesn’t touch anything else) - but for me, this helps to create energy / ecstasy enhancement of somewhere between double and quadruple from what I had, before Kechari 2.
I’ve also found that I am spontaneously (or nearly so) drawn into ecstatic states, in a “spontaneous kriya”-like way – meaning: these things seem to happen of their own accord – sometimes with a slight “nod” from me - other times, fully on their own.
Examples:
*I’ll settle into a hot bath (which I find to be nice on several levels - but specifically in terms of energetic grounding), and as many people do, settle back, and kind of go “Ahhhh” - with the intention being to pick up a book within a few seconds – but I never get to the book!
My eyes roll back, my tongue comes up, my perineum contracts - and the ecstasy / energy FLOWS.
*I’ll lay down in bed, and “same thing”.
When NOT in these states, I’ve noticed that I’ve felt a bit fatigued / depressed (not clinically at all, just kind of “bleh”, and oriented toward a bit of sadness - which is rare for me, these days.)
However, the upside has seemed to far outweigh the downside (and yes, Yogani, - I am aware that there’s not always a 1:1 daily correlation – this has been going on for a few weeks – and there does not seem to be any cumulative aspect - though I’m always open to guidance / input on this.)
Now, the Sleep-Related Part:
Last night, I was feeling (all of a sudden) SO tired, that I decided to take a nap at 8pm or so (the timing may seem strange, but A. I’m often up until Midnight or later, and B. I was that tired, where I thought a 20-30 min. nap would be “just the thing” – I’m a successful “power napper” from way back.
And please note: I had a fairly major (positive / successful) chiropractic adjustment around 4pm - and started feeling tired right after it, and - I had been running very high ecstatic energy, during practices, yesterday.
So, the reasons I was “that tired” were clear to me.
Now, normally, if I’m really zapped, I’ll “sleep hard” (no comments now … ) for 20-30 mins. – and wake up refreshed, OR I’ll end up sleeping longer than that.
What happened last night, was:
For 5-10 mins., I couldn’t fall asleep (not too unusual, for me, even really tired) – but then – I zonked out - and woke up literally 2 minutes later.
Fine.
I zonked out - and woke up literally 2 minutes later.
But then …
I zonked out - and woke up literally 2 minutes later.
And after that …
I zonked out - and woke up literally 2 minutes later.
I kept thinking, “I’ll just go ahead and get up” …
but I zonked out - and woke up literally 2 minutes later.
(And yes, I do know – there was a clock directly in my field of vision.)
This went on for two and a half HOURS - no kidding (there were spots where I just “went with it” and didn’t check the time – but it felt consistent – and I spot-checked the time often enough, that this was the general trend.)
It was almost like a “nodding off while driving” dynamic - you’re exhausted, but something in you feels you must stay awake, so you “snap” awake (except that I didn’t “snap”, I just kind of “came to”).
I’m used to either “can’t sleep” or “really tired, sleep a lot” — but I’ve never had this weird “off / on” thing, before.
My Questions:

1. Any thoughts on what this is all about / what it means / what it indicates.
2. If (as I suspect) it’s connected to my “even more heightened” energy – should I literally tell my body “no”?
   I’ve been operating under the presumption that if the body does something spontaneously, especially for “kundalinic” reasons — that it’s an evolutionary action, and it’s best to (if practical / possible, at the time) to go with it.
   Any and all input is most welcome - thanks!
   Peace & Namaste,
   Kirtanman

[Scott]

I’ve had the same type of disturbances, Kirtanman. Personally, I cut back on practices drastically. I think Yogani says somewhere in the lessons it’s up to the individual to decide how much they can handle. Getting hardly any sleep every night simply wasn’t for me! Maybe it’s for you, though.

[Kirtanman (Doug Sandlin)]

@Scott

I’ve had the same type of disturbances, Kirtanman. Personally, I cut back on practices drastically. I think Yogani says somewhere in the lessons it’s up to the individual to decide how much they can handle. Getting hardly any sleep every night simply wasn’t for me! Maybe it’s for you, though.

Nope - I’m with you – and thanks very much for the input, Scott!
Peace & Namaste,
Kirtanman

[Shanti (Mahasweta)]

Hi Kirtanman,
“I zonked out - and woke up literally 2 minutes later.
I kept thinking, “I’ll just go ahead and get up” …
but I zonked out - and woke up literally 2 minutes later.”
What you experienced was a big round of purification. If this continues to happen… and interferes with your daily life… then you will definitely have to self-pace. But at times it is just a one time thing, and everything goes back to normal. So watch out for any of the other symptoms of overdoing.
“When NOT in these states, I’ve noticed that I’ve felt a bit fatigued / depressed (not clinically at all, just kind of “bleh”, and oriented toward a bit of sadness - which is rare for me, these days.)”
This is a sign of not enough rest after your routine, or may also be because of all those extra sessions you seem to be automatically going into… in the tub and in bed. Although you may think you cannot control these… I think if you try you could,(make sure you take rest after these sessions too) and if not… do some extra grounding stuff… like walks, heavier diet, go out and do more stuff with non-spiritual people, stay away from spiritual and self-inq books for a bit… just till you feel a little stable energy wise … Self pacing does not always have to be a case of adjusting your practice, at times just better grounding of the excess energy will do the trick. But if that does not work… you always have the option of cutting down on practice.
Hope this helps.

[yoginstar (Joyce Hoen)]

Kirtanman,
the 2 most severe “mishaps” I had with Kundalini were after severe sleepdeprivation. The first time I really just could not sleep anymore, even with eyes closed I had vision (it drove me mad for I wanted to sleep), the 2nd time I thought I didn’t need any sleep… but I have firmly implanted in my mind the advice of a befriended psychiatrist who said: simply take a sleeping pill (I would use a sleeping pill or a few drops rather to drink on the basis of natural medicine). A glass of red wine might even do the trick, I read that somewhere in one of the Satyananda books a long time ago, but this is probably BAD advice grin) ---- Since having started the AYP practices I am fully confident that with the self pacing I will not get into any future “mishaps” anymore, but just in case I would… I will heed her advice, and so, if you think you are getting too little sleep on a consistent basis… (well, the self pacing should do it!)
Best!

[Scott]

Yoginstar,
Thoughtful reply. You know, if I sit cross legged for more than like 10 minutes a day, I will have sleeping problems. It can become less of a self pacing issue, and more of a stopping practices altogether issue.
I know that’s a controversial idea here, where we are told to continue practices no matter what, even if it’s “only” 10 minutes of meditation twice a day…but I think sleep deprivation with the slightest nudge in practices is a good reason to cease practices altogether for a while.
What I’m saying is that there can come a point where it’s impossible to self pace and continue doing practices.

[weaver]

I am with you Scott. I have also been very close to skipping practices because of excessive energy in the head. Sometimes, after only a couple of minutes of meditation it feels like a stake is boring down hard on the top of my head so I have to end it. Then there is energy for the rest of the day. I guess I have learned to live with it but I often wonder if it would go away if I would cease practices for a while. Or, if that stage will have to plowed through in any case, so I may just postpone it by not practicing(?). I guess I have felt like I should continue because it has been said that you are set back a lot in your progress if you skip practices.

[Scott]

Thanks Weaver,
I haven’t been practicing for a while now (a few weeks), and the whole thing is still with me. I will still have mystical experiences despite doing nothing, and in fact doing all the recommended things to tone down the effects (like walking, getting physical exercise, eating heavier meals, staying active in different ways, going to bed early, etc).
You say you’re afraid of not progressing. A good question to ask yourself is: what am I progressing towards?
What are we seeking on the spiritual path? Is this the way to attain that?

[weaver]

That’s good to hear Scott, that you don’t seem to be set back when not practicing. That’s a lot different from what Jim describes in this thread: http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=750. And Yogani also says there that it’s important to honor the habit. So maybe lapses work differently on different people, or there is more to find out in this area of this open-source science.
Yes, these questions that you state are important to ask oneself.

[Kirtanman (Doug Sandlin)]

@Shanti

Hi Kirtanman,
“I zonked out - and woke up literally 2 minutes later.
I kept thinking, “I’ll just go ahead and get up” …
but I zonked out - and woke up literally 2 minutes later.”
What you experienced was a big round of purification. If this continues to happen… and interferes with your daily life… then you will definitely have to self-pace. But at times it is just a one time thing, and everything goes back to normal. So watch out for any of the other symptoms of overdoing.
“When NOT in these states, I’ve noticed that I’ve felt a bit fatigued / depressed (not clinically at all, just kind of “bleh”, and oriented toward a bit of sadness - which is rare for me, these days.)”
This is a sign of not enough rest after your routine, or may also be because of all those extra sessions you seem to be automatically going into… in the tub and in bed. Although you may think you cannot control these… I think if you try you could,(make sure you take rest after these sessions too) and if not… do some extra grounding stuff… like walks, heavier diet, go out and do more stuff with non-spiritual people, stay away from spiritual and self-inq books for a bit… just till you feel a little stable energy wise … Self pacing does not always have to be a case of adjusting your practice, at times just better grounding of the excess energy will do the trick. But if that does not work… you always have the option of cutting down on practice.
Hope this helps.

Hi Shanti - thanks very much!

And yes, this does help.
Quick point of clarification:
There’s never been any question of control - I’m certain able to stop the spontaneous EEs (Ecstasy Events) … if I want to.
I just haven’t wanted to, because:
A. They’re very enjoyable - no, wait – make that very VERY enjoyable!

&
B. I figured my body / energetic system has a reason for “wanting” to do this – so I’ve been allowing it, for that reason.
However, I’m not completely clear on whether this additional energy flow can always be considered “evolutionary”, or, whether it’s just a result of the body’s newfound energetic capabilities, per energy channels opening up.
As I believe we all agree, yogic evolution can look a lot like puberty — so, as an illustration “therefrom” — adolescent boys often getting spontaneous erections at inopportune times (for “said boy”, and/or for the world around him … ) — I well remember having to hold my school books at kind of funny angle in front of me, when I was a freshman in high school.
Now, as much as I probably wanted to believe otherwise (and/or convince others, namely girlfriends “real or imagined”, at the time … ) ---- every single one of those erections was not evolutionary, or terribly important.
It was just a newfound capability that my body had – so my body enacted that capability (and spontaneous means spontaneous – I could be reading about macroeconomic theory, and … Bwoiing! I mean, we all enjoy the postulation of Hayek ---- but not that much! )
So - seriously, though - I’m wondering if these Ecstasy Events are a bit like that — something my body / energy system can do, but not something it’s necessarily always helpful for it to do.
(So, I’m tossing out the “open question” to the Forum - I’ve never seen information on this anywhere – which I’m guessing is due to the fact that most people who regularly experience ecstatic states on a regular basis, outside of AYP - are part of systems that tend not to discuss them openly.)
And, by the way (to all) — I think I was running kind of a “two-sided” operation:
Side 1 was the excess energy flow.
Side 2 was reduced sleep.
(i.e. When I had the experience I reported, I hadn’t had that much less sleep than usual – but somewhat less sleep, combined with a LOT more ecstatic energy – produced the exhaustion reported.)
And also to clarify — that experience wasn’t for a whole night; it was for a couple of hours.
Then, I got up for a couple of hours – and went back to bed for a full night’s sleep.
So, on the one hand, it wasn’t that bad, in terms of my “suffering” from lack of sleep — but on the other hand, my body was clearly quite exhausted to not only go through that kind of experience – but to also be able to sleep for roughly 9 hours, right after that!
Peace & Namaste,
Kirtanman

[Kirtanman (Doug Sandlin)]

Hi Yoginstar, Scott & Weaver,
Just wanted to say Thanks to all of you as well (as Shanti) – I found all comments to be very helpful.
Please see my main, detailed reply in my comments to Shweta (Shanti).
Peace & Namaste,
Kirtanman

[Kirtanman (Doug Sandlin)]

@Scott

You say you’re afraid of not progressing. A good question to ask yourself is: what am I progressing towards?
What are we seeking on the spiritual path? Is this the way to attain that?

A good reminder for us all, Scott - thanks!

I find that when any area of life hits a point of diminishing returns — if a job becomes terribly stressful, if a relationship has a lot more bad times than good times, etc. — it’s time to take a serious look at what’s going on, and determine if some adjustments - maybe big ones - may be in order.
Point Being:
Quality of Life not only counts for a lot – but is also almost always (and maybe always) a very good indicator concerning how healthy / beneficial that a certain way we’re living, really is, for us.
In terms of my practice, I’m a bit of a “push the envelope” type guy, though I’ve actually become much less that way (believe it or not! ) since becoming involved with AYP.
However — I make sure my net results are always positive (meaning: I never let the scale tip over into ongoing, major discomfort) – and if they’re not (example: per this thread, this situation has been right on the cusp of “maybe not so positive”) – that’s when I’ll self-pace, and make needed adjustments.
If we think we’re going to “get” something from practice - especially if we delude ourselves into thinking that what we’ll “get” causes overdoing to be worthwhile ----- that’s not yoga — that’s addiction.
If, on the other hand, our practice shows every sign of being a healthy aspect of our lives, and producing healthy results – we’re probably doing okay.
For myself, practice is just what I’m authentically drawn to do – though if that ever starts to look like “gross overdoing” - that’s when I take a serious look at what’s up (per this thread).
Thanks Again!
Peace & Namaste,
Kirtanman

[Scott]

Kirtanman,

Quality of Life not only counts for a lot – but is also almost always (and maybe always) a very good indicator concerning how healthy / beneficial that a certain way we’re living, really is, for us.

Yep that was exactly what I meant…you put it in much better words!

In terms of my practice, I’m a bit of a “push the envelope” type guy, though I’ve actually become much less that way (believe it or not! ) since becoming involved with AYP.

Haha, we must be somewhat similar. For instance, I think I’ve told this before, but a few years ago I did something which I called “death yoga”…where you lay absolutely still no matter what until you experience a deep state. That practice was quite intense! I ended up facing my own death, and more pain than I could have ever imagined (on all levels, physical, mental, emotional, psychological, etc).

However — I make sure my net results are always positive (meaning: I never let the scale tip over into ongoing, major discomfort) – and if they’re not (example: per this thread, this situation has been right on the cusp of “maybe not so positive”) – that’s when I’ll self-pace, and make needed adjustments.
If we think we’re going to “get” something from practice - especially if we delude ourselves into thinking that what we’ll “get” causes overdoing to be worthwhile ----- that’s not yoga — that’s addiction.
If, on the other hand, our practice shows every sign of being a healthy aspect of our lives, and producing healthy results – we’re probably doing okay.
For myself, practice is just what I’m authentically drawn to do – though if that ever starts to look like “gross overdoing” - that’s when I take a serious look at what’s up (per this thread).

It seems like a very very healthy view to have. Great!

[Shanti (Mahasweta)]

@Kirtanman

And also to clarify — that experience wasn’t for a whole night; it was for a couple of hours.
Then, I got up for a couple of hours – and went back to bed for a full night’s sleep.
So, on the one hand, it wasn’t that bad, in terms of my “suffering” from lack of sleep — but on the other hand, my body was clearly quite exhausted to not only go through that kind of experience – but to also be able to sleep for roughly 9 hours, right after that!

Hi Kirtanman… The one you experienced for 2hrs… was definitely purification, and chances are it wont happen again. I had something similar once…

@Kirtanman

“So - seriously, though - I’m wondering if these Ecstasy Events are a bit like that — something my body / energy system can do, but not something it’s necessarily always helpful for it to do.”

Yes… I think the newness of the experience has something to do with it. Once the newness is gone, these ecstasy experiences reduce… or I should say they are more unconscious and more subtle… When it does happen, which may be all the time really… you don’t stop everything… just to sit and enjoy it… its there great… lets move on…
Well that is how it is with me. There is nothing extra I gain by focusing on it… it does not make any miracles happen in my life… it really does nothing for me… its just there… That is why I always question… what are we achieving with these ecstasy events?.. and Yogani answers… don’t focus on these experiences… measure your progress with how you feel in your everyday life… I agree with him… I have never felt better …

[Christi (Tristan Dorling)]

Hi Kirtanman,
This stuff seems to be my normal experience at the moment. I also push the envelope in terms of practices, and get many similar symptoms. I have daily ecstatic episodes, and experience similar sleep problems. I usually cannot sleep at all until about 4 in the morning. Then I sleep for two or three hours, wake up due to energy problems, go back to bed for a few hours, and then wake up feeling pretty lousy. I am sure that the ecstatic experiences are related to the sleep pattern problems.
In response to your question about whether the ecstatic episodes are a purifying process or a natural by-product of practices that doesn’t mean much in terms of going forwards, well…
As I see it the ecstasy is produced by lots of prana flowing through fairly open Nadis. Eventually ecstasy will be produced by huge amounts of prana flowing through very open nadis, but that is not the situation we are in yet. So if there is lots of prana, flowing through us, producing ecstasy, it will also be helping to open us up and purify us. This is IMO how tantric sex benefits us as a spiritual practice… lots of energy flowing everywhere, purifying and opening nadis.
I think the sleep problems could come from 2 things. The first is physical. As lots of prana flows through our subtle body it will activate the 6th chakra (amongst others). This chakra is located in the centre of the head, projecting forward to the forehead, and backward to the occipital centre on the back of the head. The glands and nerve plexuses connected with this chakra are the pineal gland (centre of head), pituitary gland (eyebrow centre), and occipital nerve complex (back of head). Now I am not a biologist (of any description), but if my memory serves me right, the hormones that regulate sleep patterns are produced by the pineal gland. The pituitary gland also regulates hormone production. So I put two and two together and recon this could be what is going on: prana flows in abundance, producing ecstasy as a by-product, opening nadis as a purification process helping our spiritual growth, activating all the chakras as it goes including the ajna, stimulating the pineal and pituitary glands as a side effect, altering hormone secretion which alters sleep patterns. The second cause could be that ecstasy seems to make our consciousness more one-pointed. When my consciousness becomes one-pointed I sleep less, and find it harder to sleep even if I am tired.
I don’t self pace because of this change in sleep patterns. I could (as you say you can) simply say “no” to the very ecstatic reverie sessions, and I could cut back on practices, and go to bed at 10pm and sleep 8 hours solid. But hey, it doesn’t really bother me, (I’m not really loosing any sleep over it , sorry I couldn’t resist that one ). I’m sure it won’t last forever. I also feel like I am doing a lot of good house-cleaning, and I don’t want to cut back on that. So, I just carry on. I get a lot of useful things done at 4 in the morning .
Love and Light
Christi

[Kirtanman (Doug Sandlin)]

@Christi

Hi Kirtanman,
This stuff seems to be my normal experience at the moment. I also push the envelope in terms of practices, and get many similar symptoms. I have daily ecstatic episodes, and experience similar sleep problems. I usually cannot sleep at all until about 4 in the morning.

You’re a maniac!
4 AM?!
… I’m always in bed by 3 AM at the latest. Pretty much.

Then I sleep for two or three hours, wake up due to energy problems, go back to bed for a few hours, and then wake up feeling pretty lousy.

“Ditto”.
Wow. Of anyone who has posted specifics, your experiences seem to match my own most closely — almost exactly!
Cool.
Most people don’t even get what it’s like (the good-feeling stuff, and the bad-feeling stuff – and the overall kundalinic trippiness of it all … )

In response to your question about whether the ecstatic episodes are a purifying process or a natural by-product of practices that doesn’t mean much in terms of going forwards, well…
As I see it the ecstasy is produced by lots of prana flowing through fairly open Nadis. Eventually ecstasy will be produced by huge amounts of prana flowing through very open nadis, but that is not the situation we are in yet. So if there is lots of prana, flowing through us, producing ecstasy, it will also be helping to open us up and purify us. This is IMO how tantric sex benefits us as a spiritual practice… lots of energy flowing everywhere, purifying and opening nadis.[quote]
I’m aware of all that (though the review was / is genuinely helpful - thanks! )
And I agree with you in part (or rather, part of me agrees with you completely — the other part of me has the question I posed – whether or not every instance of ecstasy helps to further open our channels.)

[quote]I think the sleep problems could come from 2 things. The first is physical. As lots of prana flows through our subtle body it will activate the 6th chakra (amongst others). This chakra is located in the centre of the head, projecting forward to the forehead, and backward to the occipital centre on the back of the head. The glands and nerve plexuses connected with this chakra are the pineal gland (centre of head), pituitary gland (eyebrow centre), and occipital nerve complex (back of head). Now I am not a biologist (of any description), but if my memory serves me right, the hormones that regulate sleep patterns are produced by the pineal gland. The pituitary gland also regulates hormone production. So I put two and two together and recon this could be what is going on: prana flows in abundance, producing ecstasy as a by-product, opening nadis as a purification process helping our spiritual growth, activating all the chakras as it goes including the ajna, stimulating the pineal and pituitary glands as a side effect, altering hormone secretion which alters sleep patterns.

Interesting – and again, I tend to agree.
My sixth chakra has been highly activated lately - much more third eye clarity, deeper and more colorful visions (not “Archangel Gabriel” visions - more “colored triangle” visions … ).
Also more Amrita (“nectar” dripping into the mouth - though in my case, it feels like it’s secreting from my tongue - though I’ve never heard of this – I think it’s probably running onto my tongue from my soft palate - origination of the nectar is apparently somewhere in the actual brain, if I recall – which is pretty wild in and of itself, from my biomedical worldview, anyway!)
I have also been experiencing a huge difference in subjective sense of energy flow from chiropratic adjustments - and it’s important to note: I see an upper cervical (yes, I’m male - hang on … ) specialist, “upper cervical” being C1 and C2 - the first two vertebrae in the neck, which house the brain stem - which also controls the function of many of the body’s core processes. Related chiropractic adjustments free impeded energy flow – and since my overall flow has increased so dramatically - this likely increases it, even further.
The net result is: emotions and mind have been much more even-keel – body, “not so much”.
It’s like the body-pendulum is swinging in broader arcs …
*I’m not hungry - until I’m starving.
*I’m not tired, until I’m exhausted.
*I’m speeded out, until I’m “blehh”.
*I’m draggy until I’m euphoric (the distance between those two states being measured via a few minutes of ecstasy and/or kirtan, and/or spinal breathing or tantric practice - anything which actively moves subtle energy.
*Sexuality is not an important part of my life. Sometimes for hours at a time. Then — watch out! (I think I’ve had more erections in the last two months than in the whole rest of the year – and more in 2006 than at any time since I was a teenager). Please note that this is not experienced as any kind of a problem. Whatsoever.

Seriously, though – it’s not just about the enjoyment of said erections - but – there’s a sense of kundalini flow that is greatly heightened, compared to a similar sense of arousal, that doesn’t produce an erection — it’s like the biological sexual energy augments the related subtle / kundalini energy (which stands to reason - it’s part of the same energy spectrum.)
also - regarding sleep - interestingly, I know through people associated with two of the “Guru 2.0” gurus — the new, young gurus who do things a bit differently / less traditionally – specifically Swami Vishwananda (Age 28) and Swami Kaleshwar (Age 33 or so) – that they also have this “sleep late, stay up really late” thing going on.
Finally - I’ve been drawn to both grounding in baths, and clearing energy (subtle) by showering.
This is apparently practiced in certain panchabhuta (five elements) traditions - but I’ve never been drawn to it, as I have in the last few weeks (and have found it quite helpful.)
And - “finally, finally” - I’m leaning back more toward not self-pacing.
It’s not because I truly can’t, or that I’m unhealthily drawn to the ecstatic experiences – it’s more that there’s an inner sense of it being right - allowing this type of flow to proceed.
And I’m trusting my guru.
(This one here — the one that’s in me. )
It’s a wild ride, but certainly not a bad one — the gains and enjoyable parts far outweigh anything negative (so far).
Please correct me if I’m wrong (Christi), in terms of how this all feels to you - but my perception is that this level of imbalance is not all that extreme (which seems to be what you’re saying, as well), though I understand it could be downright alarming to some.
And I’ve been operating at this general pace for at least this year - probably close to a full year, total (i.e. it started to get to this level maybe fall of last year) – and I haven’t ended up in the hospital.
(That was August of last year — and yes, I do think it was kundalini-related ---- very alarming chest pains, which did not show up on an EKG ---- and which was before I had ever heard the term “self pace” - it had been mentioned in AYP - but barely, compared to now.)
Being really honest with myself, I think about the only thing that might / would get me to really self-pace would be something like Yogani’s experience, as described in Secrets of Wilder (hives-ish stuff, in bed for days / weeks, etc.)
In fact, I actually am self-pacing, now — if I was really in “maniac mode” - I could manage to do a lot more of the stuff I’m doing, energy-wise … I’m just going with the amounts that feel right.
The sleep thing was a bit of a curiosity / concern - and I still do wonder a bit about it, in the sense that I know that “good sleep” is needed, just as “good nutrition” is – but I also think that my be a bio-individual / karmic-individual thing – per the gurus I mentioned, who sleep fairly little, without harm - and do so intentionally.
It may seem like my attitude is shifting back and forth a bit, but as Gandhi famously said, “I am interest in Truth, not consistency”.
Plus, I’m not in charge here – that would be Ma Shakti – and she’s a lady who seems quite sure she knows where she’s going!
Durga Devi Prasaanam!
Aum Namo Shaktiayna Namaha!
Peace & Namaste,
Kirtanman
PS - Literally, just now - the song that came on my stereo just now is “Adi Shakti” - primordial life energy aka kundalini – by Mantra Girl - awesome song - check it out, at:
http://www.mantragirl.com/mp3_samples/03_Adi_Shakti-GAIN_01-04.mp3
(By the way, the language she’s singing in is Gurmukh - the spiritual language of the Sikh tradition - rather than Sanskrit (sounds similar, if you’re not familiar with both). Erin Kamler - Mantra Girl - is a Kundalini Yoga instructor - and most Western yoga traditions called “Kundalini Yoga” originated directly or indirectly with Sikh Gurus.

[Christi (Tristan Dorling)]

Hi Kirtanman

I’m aware of all that (though the review was / is genuinely helpful - thanks! )
And I agree with you in part (or rather, part of me agrees with you completely — the other part of me has the question I posed – whether or not every instance of ecstasy helps to further open our channels.)

Sorry – I didn’t actually answer your question. This is my theory on it… If You have a dried up river delta with rocks in the channels, and then it rains, what will happen to the channels and the rocks? Well… it depends how much rain there is, how wide the channels are and how big the rocks are. You could get a bit of rain (ecstasy) flowing through fairly wide channels (nadis) and not moving many rocks (obstructions). So there could be ecstatic conductivity without any useful purification going on. Or there could be a lot more rain (ecstasy), cutting new channels and breaking rocks apart all over the place. So I would say that not all ecstasy is useful (in terms of purification), but most of it probably is.

Also more Amrita (“nectar” dripping into the mouth - though in my case, it feels like it’s secreting from my tongue - though I’ve never heard of this – I think it’s probably running onto my tongue from my soft palate - origination of the nectar is apparently somewhere in the actual brain, if I recall – which is pretty wild in and of itself, from my biomedical worldview, anyway!)

It doesn’t even phase my biomedical worldview! But I’ve already fought my corner in this forum over that one, so I won’t try it again!

also - regarding sleep - interestingly, I know through people associated with two of the “Guru 2.0” gurus — the new, young gurus who do things a bit differently / less traditionally – specifically Swami Vishwananda (Age 28) and Swami Kaleshwar (Age 33 or so) – that they also have this “sleep late, stay up really late” thing going on.

The sleep thing was a bit of a curiosity / concern - and I still do wonder a bit about it, in the sense that I know that “good sleep” is needed, just as “good nutrition” is – but I also think that my be a bio-individual / karmic-individual thing – per the gurus I mentioned, who sleep fairly little, without harm - and do so intentionally.

I think at some point we simply stop sleeping altogether. It may be fairly soon in your case. We still need to lie down to rest our (physical) bodies, but we simply stay conscious. So we lie down, look at the backs of our eyelids, or watch the triangles/ concentric expanding circles of light/ or whatever our thing of the moment is, and then a couple of hours later, get up again. I imagine most gurus are in this state (or way beyond it). Last time I did a 10 day meditation retreat (before I started AYP) I stopped sleeping completely after about day 6. It wasn’t a problem at all, just an interesting thing to notice.
Is good sleep needed? Well … maybe it depends who you are (or where you’re at).

It’s a wild ride, but certainly not a bad one — the gains and enjoyable parts far outweigh anything negative (so far).
Please correct me if I’m wrong (Christi), in terms of how this all feels to you - but my perception is that this level of imbalance is not all that extreme (which seems to be what you’re saying, as well), though I understand it could be downright alarming to some.
And I’ve been operating at this general pace for at least this year - probably close to a full year, total (i.e. it started to get to this level maybe fall of last year) – and I haven’t ended up in the hospital.

I would agree with you. If it’s been going on that long, then it’s not likely to suddenly get worse. As you say, you are self pacing, because you could do a whole lot more, and you’re not. I feel like I have a sense of the energy and how it works (as I’m sure you do) so I usually know when too much energy is building up and I am going to get problems further down the line. Sometimes it takes me by surprise and something unexpected happens. Last week I took on a new practice. I knew that I was pushing my luck taking it on. It wasn’t especially recommended by AYP and there are loads of warnings against trying it (even personal ones directed to me from Yogani). Anyway, I tried it and had energy problems as a result. I spent the next 8 hours on my back shaking. It was about 14 hours before I felt fairly normal again. But I wasn’t unduly phased. I just thought, “O.K. I’m not ready for that one just yet” and went back to my normal practices the next day.
It’s amazing stuff isn’t it? It’s very interesting for me to read about your experiences. I’ll check out mantra girl. I find singing and chanting in these ancient languages to be very inspiring. I went to a bajan concert in our local town a few weeks ago, put on by some people who had spent time in north India. All the songs were in Sanskrit. After a while everyone was dancing, and the energy started to fill the room. My arms went out, and my head went back. The energy was so strong that I could not move my body. I felt the energy coming down through me and flowing out of my heart. It reminded me of the Jesus prayer. There was definately something about the sound of the sanskrit singing that contributed to this. I am sure the same thing would not have happened in a rock concert…
Love and Light
Christi

[Kirtanman (Doug Sandlin)]

Sorry – I didn’t actually answer your question. This is my theory on it… If You have a dried up river delta with rocks in the channels, and then it rains, what will happen to the channels and the rocks? Well… it depends how much rain there is, how wide the channels are and how big the rocks are. You could get a bit of rain (ecstasy) flowing through fairly wide channels (nadis) and not moving many rocks (obstructions). So there could be ecstatic conductivity without any useful purification going on. Or there could be a lot more rain (ecstasy), cutting new channels and breaking rocks apart all over the place. So I would say that not all ecstasy is useful (in terms of purification), but most of it probably is.

I’m with you on that - I’ve tried to pay much closer attention, and it just feels like there’s benefit (as opposed to just ultra-ultra-good feeling!) However, if there are points where it really is “only the ecstasy” - I don’t see that as so bad, and in general, it seems to be facility healthy results within the body-mind … so … Woo-Hoo!

Also more Amrita (“nectar” dripping into the mouth - though in my case, it feels like it’s secreting from my tongue - though I’ve never heard of this – I think it’s probably running onto my tongue from my soft palate - origination of the nectar is apparently somewhere in the actual brain, if I recall – which is pretty wild in and of itself, from my biomedical worldview, anyway!)
It doesn’t even phase my biomedical worldview! But I’ve already fought my corner in this forum over that one, so I won’t try it again!

Well, my “worldview” is probably better stated as "social conditioning that I’m not strongly tied to - it’s just the whole idea of any personal practices causing your brain to secrete a fluid - cause normal seeming people to go all trippy on you. I wanna get it tested - I’m curious to see if the biochemical make-up is different enough, that we can say, “Aha, take that, you myopic slaves of the rational!!”
(That would be my ego speaking – and he’s thanking not hanging around as much these days. The rest of me is more like, “Aum, whatever …”

also - regarding sleep - interestingly, I know through people associated with two of the “Guru 2.0” gurus — the new, young gurus who do things a bit differently / less traditionally – specifically Swami Vishwananda (Age 28) and Swami Kaleshwar (Age 33 or so) – that they also have this “sleep late, stay up really late” thing going on.

The sleep thing was a bit of a curiosity / concern - and I still do wonder a bit about it, in the sense that I know that “good sleep” is needed, just as “good nutrition” is – but I also think that my be a bio-individual / karmic-individual thing – per the gurus I mentioned, who sleep fairly little, without harm - and do so intentionally.

I think at some point we simply stop sleeping altogether. It may be fairly soon in your case. We still need to lie down to rest our (physical) bodies, but we simply stay conscious. So we lie down, look at the backs of our eyelids, or watch the triangles/ concentric expanding circles of light/ or whatever our thing of the moment is, and then a couple of hours later, get up again. I imagine most gurus are in this state (or way beyond it). Last time I did a 10 day meditation retreat (before I started AYP) I stopped sleeping completely after about day 6. It wasn’t a problem at all, just an interesting thing to notice.
Is good sleep needed? Well … maybe it depends who you are (or where you’re at).

Agreed. I don’t know that the gurus I mention sleep in the sense that we use the term – they may just be fully conscious in the deep meditative states that replaces sleep.
But yes, I’m aware that’s where we’re headed — but in the meantime, the body gets certain health benefits from sleep – though I’m just going with intuition regarding what I need — and then managing to somehow get 2-3 hours per night less than that!
I can function okay - but feel a bit off — but don’t want to sleep more, either.
Kind of like the whole rest of this thread … I’m just trying to find the best overall balance, and doing my best not to get caught up in other’s people’s thinking or concepts (the guru is in me ---- and he’s a kundalini-buzzin’ insomniac!

It’s a wild ride, but certainly not a bad one — the gains and enjoyable parts far outweigh anything negative (so far).
Please correct me if I’m wrong (Christi), in terms of how this all feels to you - but my perception is that this level of imbalance is not all that extreme (which seems to be what you’re saying, as well), though I understand it could be downright alarming to some.
And I’ve been operating at this general pace for at least this year - probably close to a full year, total (i.e. it started to get to this level maybe fall of last year) – and I haven’t ended up in the hospital.
I would agree with you. If it’s been going on that long, then it’s not likely to suddenly get worse. As you say, you are self pacing, because you could do a whole lot more, and you’re not. I feel like I have a sense of the energy and how it works (as I’m sure you do) so I usually know when too much energy is building up and I am going to get problems further down the line. Sometimes it takes me by surprise and something unexpected happens. Last week I took on a new practice. I knew that I was pushing my luck taking it on. It wasn’t especially recommended by AYP and there are loads of warnings against trying it (even personal ones directed to me from Yogani). Anyway, I tried it and had energy problems as a result. I spent the next 8 hours on my back shaking. It was about 14 hours before I felt fairly normal again. But I wasn’t unduly phased. I just thought, “O.K. I’m not ready for that one just yet” and went back to my normal practices the next day.
It’s amazing stuff isn’t it? It’s very interesting for me to read about your experiences.

Ditto - thanks again!

I’ll check out mantra girl. I find singing and chanting in these ancient languages to be very inspiring. I went to a bajan concert in our local town a few weeks ago, put on by some people who had spent time in north India. All the songs were in Sanskrit. After a while everyone was dancing, and the energy started to fill the room. My arms went out, and my head went back. The energy was so strong that I could not move my body. I felt the energy coming down through me and flowing out of my heart. It reminded me of the Jesus prayer. There was definately something about the sound of the sanskrit singing that contributed to this. I am sure the same thing would not have happened in a rock concert…

I could riff on this for a while, but am way tired.
Basically: Sanskrit has a specific, uplifting vibration to it - and when chanted with devotion, and according to Indian-style (long build, intense for a few minutes - fifteen minutes total, at least) - there is significant energetic benefit, resulting from an activity that most people have a lot of fun with!
And as far as the power of what you experienced - that happened to me, the last time Krishna Das came to California - I normally chant every line to every song — but I was lifted up into samadhi - and couldn’t do anything but sit there with a big ol’ bliss-eating grin on my face!
I just told my friends honestly, “I felt too good to sing* - but all that beautiful music was still passing right through …!”
(*This may sound like a strange comment, but in context - it was said based on the fact that everyone knows I am effectively Kirtanman, and not much, this side of unspeakable bliss will get me to not participate in a kirtan. Unspeakable bliss, will, however - because, well ---- can’t speak (per that well chosen word “unspeakable”).
If you like Mantra Girl and want any other recommendations, please let me know. She’s good — but she’s not even in my Top 5 – I just really like a couple of her songs (both on Truth - one is Adi Shakti, and the other is called Dhan Dhan).
Love and Light
Christi
[/quote]

[Christi (Tristan Dorling)]

Hi Kirtanman,

However, if there are points where it really is “only the ecstasy” - I don’t see that as so bad, and in general, it seems to be facility healthy results within the body-mind … so … Woo-Hoo!

I have been a bit puzzled as to why you think there could be something wrong with feeling ecstasy in the body, outside of practices, even if there is no direct spiritual benefit from the experience. I assume you are concerned that because you are actively creating many of these ecstatic states, you may be craving states of ecstasy, in an unwholesome way, or becoming attached to such states. There is the whole “desire, craving and attachment, being synonymous with ignorance (avidya)” thing, that forms a strong part of much eastern spiritual philosophy. On the other hand, bhakti, has been translated by Yogani, as desire, in several places in the lessons. And Yogani is clear that bhakti is the most important ingredient in spiritual practice.
So I guess there must be two kinds of desires, wholesome desires, and unwholesome desires. Bhakti would include desires for things that lead us forward in our spiritual path.
Personally I would place ecstasy, along with bliss, love and compassion, on the list of wholesome desires.
On another note, as I’m sure you have noticed, Yogani has often said that at some point, ecstasy becomes our normal condition, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week (another thing that points to the conscious sleep stuff). So you might as well get used to it, whether it is “useful” or not.
Christi

[Christi (Tristan Dorling)]

Hi Kirtanman,

If you like Mantra Girl and want any other recommendations, please let me know. She’s good — but she’s not even in my Top 5 – I just really like a couple of her songs (both on Truth - one is Adi Shakti, and the other is called Dhan Dhan).

I would love to hear your top ten kirtan chanters/ singers, as I am sure many other people would.