What about hugging, Carzon? Can you introduce her to just standing and holding eachother in a hug, breathing together? Three hugs/day, a few minutes each time with synchronized breaths? That is very soothing and is a way to be physically intimate without even mentioning the label “sex”. It’s from such closeness relaxation can grow and sensuality awaken.
I’m glad you feel my posts helpful. I’m only drawing from my archives of knowledge, and all persons are different so I’m just giving general suggestions here. I hope it can get something rolling anyway…
Hi Albert,
I will look into this tomorrow at work. Have never heard of this type of puja so I am intrigued. Thank you.
When we have sex (in missionary or otherwise) my wife seems to always want to have her legs as open as possible. Often times with her knees bent and pulled up to the sides of her torso. Make sense? Why do you ask this? Is it significant?
My wife and I purchased a vibrator a long time ago, but she still only likes it used for penetration. I asked her today (it is very hard for us to talk about this so I can only get little bits of information at a time) why she doesn’t like her clitoris stimulated. She says she doesn’t like how it makes her feel and much prefers straight penetration even though she knows she won’t have an orgasm. I also asked her if she thinks that we may have some “Subconscious” issues in our sex life and she said yes. I then asked her if she thinks these issues might have something to do with her potentially being abused as a child. She says she thinks about this lots, but doesn’t know for sure. I didn’t press any further and this is where the conversation ended. I need to take this slow I can tell. She needs time to figure this out for herself I think. I will be here to help when she needs it, and I will prod kindly on occassion as well. I suggested that we take a month to live in celebecy and she said she might be ok with that.
I am not very adept at tantra Albert, so would you mind explaining the above stated method in a little greater detail for me please? Thank you!
Love,
Carson 
Hi emc and thanks again for all your thoughtful advice.
I really like this idea and if we do decide to be celibate for a while I will use this for sure. Even if we don’t I am going to try and make a conserted effort to do this. A very loving suggestion thank you.
Love,
Carson
2 sense, Carson, 1) Spiritual liberation is possible even if you ejaculate. There were many married mahasiddhas. Remember, it’s not the sex that the problem it’s the attachment. 2) Bliss consciousness, the afterglow, is just a feeling, it’s temporary, unreal, and it is causing you to acquire a new attachment.
Pre-orgasmic tantra is not required. Don’t hanker after it or resent anyone who prevents you from experiencing it. This is illusion; this is samsara. You are judging your wife’s past and judging yourself along with it. These are wrong attitudes, wrong views. Everything is existence is an opportunity to observe the truth.
Trust your heart if there is an underlying divide between you and your wife. That is a matter of general relationship problems.
However, don’t allow sexual tantra and your desire to become a barrier between you and others. If you can’t, consider carefully what life as a monk or a sadhu would be like, alone in your bliss consciousness. You might enjoy it. But it’s not required.
Sexual bliss consciousness can become a barrier and not a doorway to great bliss of awakening, because it is impermanent, illusory. It can be a doorway if you and your partner are prepared to use it in a meditation path to explore non-conceptual states. Very few masters used sex as a regular path to perfect vision.
Use this relationship issue as a window into ultimate reality. Try to see how your attachment to a sexual experience is like a drug, temporary, fleeting. Try to see how your longing for it frustrates you and your wife. Inspect the longing in detail. What good is it? It may prove more helpful for your liberation to reject this attitude about bliss consciousness as you now see it. There is greater bliss in frictionless natural peace.
The insight into yourself may help you gain compassion for her. You should then explore skillful means to entice her into practices. Help her see that her longing for your ejaculation is the source of her worries about her sexual value. Perhaps she can then relate longing with fear and worry as one continuum.
I went through this with my fiance. Now we are doing tai chi together; we also discuss illusory nature of worry a lot; she also has many worries and this is helping her calm down.
The sexual incongruity is the quickest path to dissolution. If you want a divorce, keep up the pre-orgasmic tantra. If your partner is not into it, leave the partner or leave the practice. You can always go back to it later.
I hope this helps,
Love,
TMS
Hi Carson,
Per Dinu Roman sexual puja cosmology, this confirms her root chakra (muladhara) is more open than any other major chakra but also root chakra wants to open more which might lead to a kundalini rise. As you can imagine, this specific situation is a friend and foe so really, try to explore other pujas or sexual positions where she could orgasm so this wil slightly open other chakras balancing her energy vessel. Since she accepts some oral sex on her clitoris, just do it with your wife using other sexual puja.
Well, if you’re naturally not open on tantra, better not go this road which requires lots of shakti so this could be dangerous for you right now.
This also means to forget everything I told you about sacred BDSM cleaning rituals.
Amicalement, Albert
Hi TMS,
Not trying to be rude here, but have you read anything of what I have written here in this thread? You have a lot of misconceptions about my situiation. Please don’t take offence.
Love,
Carson
I read every post on here. What do I not understand? You are more concerned about your self and “your” liberation. And you think that remaining pre-orgasmic is necessary for it. I’m telling you that you are wrong. My humble opinion is that this condition is an attachment for you, and as such it is a hindrance to what you seek. Sorry if I’m missing a key point.
TMS
Hi TMS,
What you are assuming incorrectly is that I think that remaining pre-orgasmic is necessary for moksha. I don’t think this at all, nor have I said that. All I have said is that the energy drain I have from orgasm or even blocked orgasm is too much for me to handle at this stage of my journey and I will not have orgasms just to please my wife for the short term. That’s all. Hope this explains a little bit more for you.
Love,
Carson
P.S. We have sex maybe twice a month at most now so obviously I am not obsessed with sex, tantra, or orgasm.
HI Albert,
Any suggestions on specific pujas or positions that may help with this? I really know nothing of sexual pujas so…
It’s not that I’m not open to tantra, it’s more that my wife is not open to it, so I don’t make a lot of time to learn about it and hence I may be a little “slow” on the tantra front. I’m trying to catch up though!!
Love,
Carson
Carson–
We all empathize with your dilemma, and many of us have gone through similar periods in our own journey, but there is a point here that I think you are missing, which is: What does marriage really mean, what does it require, what promises and commitments do your vows hold you to? What some of us are trying to say is simple and direct–your vows to your wife mean more than you are allowing for. Sacrifice is necessary, even sacrifice to your own spiritual progress (or what you see as such) because of the path you have chosen–our householder’s path binds us to our partner in such a way that, yes, we DO sometimes need to step off our path. In fact, one’s “couplehood” actually demands that we do, because when we make those vows, we cease to have any claim at all on “my path”, it becomes “our path”, and it is (or at least correctly SHOULD be) our joined karma, not yours alone any longer. You have yet to realize this and give yourself over fully to “us”, letting “me” go. Ultimately, this WILL become your path–not YOU alone, but you two, together as a couple. That is, unless you are karmically wrong for one another in a lifetime union, in which case you’ve made a big mistake and need to rethink your marriage. Otherwise, you are joined lock, stock and karma, your desires, paths and lives linked as one. There is no YOU without HER, and therefore no need or want of yours which takes precedent over hers. This I speak from deep experience–you know the story of my marriage, I need not repeat it–and so you seem to have some basic reevaluation of yourself and your life to do before continuing on. Good luck my friend.
Michael
PS–having sex only twice a month (especially at your age–we do it twice a day, and I’m double your age…!!) is a set-up for marital discord and disharmony. There are deep unbalances in your marriage. Have you considered marital counseling?
Hi Micheal and thank you for your kind post. Please don’t feel offended if I don’t agree with you 100% as my experience and opinions differ from yours in many ways. That doesn’t make either of us “wrong” in my perspective. Hope you understand this…
Up until semi-recently I would have agreed with what you are trying to get me to say. But I am at a different stage now, and do not feel intrinsically linked because of taking marriage vows. I think marriage to me and marriage to you mean different things and the vows were taken in different capacities perhaps. To me marriage is simply two people choosing monogamy over promiscuity. Marriage to me doesn’t mean that we lose our identity as individuals nor that we become “one” journey. My wife is not spiritual in ANY way. We are not compatible spiritually. She was brought up Mormon, and I Christian, and I have stuck with the spiritual path, (just not Christian persay) and she has abandoned all searching for answers to esoteric questions. She has no desire to know “who she is”, or for moksha, or to even be involved in anything spiritual. The reason we got married is VERY complicated and I don’t feel like explaining it here because I know I will be judged harshly by many for it. Suffice it to say I did not marry for “love”. That in itself may sound harsh, but I have my reasons and I DO love my wife, it is just a very complicated situation that took many many years to develop into what it is. My wedding vows to me mean that I will be there for my wife as support and loving companionship at any time for any reason. I am not here to make my wife “happy”. That is not possible. Nor should it be asked of me. My wife is the ONLY person who can make herself happy and happiness is a state of mind and I cannot impose a state of mind on anyone. Sacrifice can be asked for in some ways, but for my wife to ask me to put aside my spiritual journey in order to make her “happy” in the short term is both unreasonable and never going to happen. This was NOT part of my wedding vows.
I’m sorry but I couldn’t disagree with you more. Me taking wedding vows with my wife had NOTHING to do with us being joined in a spiritual journey together. Yes this may happen, but our journeys are very much seperate. I realize this is not the way it is for everyone, but it is for us. We did not marry because we share similar spiritual views. In fact we married DESPITE having almost opposite spiritual views. This did not bother me and does not bother me because I do not need my wife to be on the same path as me in order for me to progress. And likewise for her. And we planned our marriage long before I ever came to yoga in any respect, so I did not know where my journey was even headed at the time. We got married right at the time I was starting AYP. And I also disagree that at least our past karma is linked. Maybe our karma since being together has become linked but what I did in the past, and what she did in the past has no current reflection on our present state of karmic resolution. And how can I burn karma for her, and vice versa if only one of us is practicing any spiritual sadhana? And we do have “our” path as you say, but that has nothing to do with spirituality. Our spirituality is very much seperate and there is still “my path” and “her path” (or lack of a path).
I hope so, but I have nothing vested in this. She is the maker of her own destiny, and I will allow that. I am not going to try and steer her one way or the other. She knows what I am into, she knows what I value and where I am headed. She can choose to join me or not. But it is her choice, and the fact that we are married will not change anything in this respect. I hope you can understand this.
We may be “karmically” wrong for each other, and I half suspect this, BUT, that does not mean that marrying her was either a mistake nor do I need to rethink my marriage. If it is not meant to be, it will end one way or another. I will not push it. For now, we will live side by side, in loving companionship, just not sharing our spiritual journeys. I can’t push my views on her nor vice versa. I would not want it any other way.
I know that this is your personal experience, but do you really think that your personal experience is going to reflect the way it has to be for everyone else? I truly doubt it. Please don’t take offence.
The reason we are not having regular sex is because of the reasons I started this thread. It was not always like this. She would have sex with me every day a hundred times a day if I wanted it. She will do whatever I ask of her. And this is not healthy. Hence why I want to help her solve some of the internal sexual issues before I make a big deal out of the lack of sex we are having. Make sense? And I don’t think we need marital counselling, I think she needs regressed memory therapy and THEN maybe marital counselling.
Love,
Carson
Carson–
Thanks for the lengthy analysis of my suggestions. I get some of it, now–for whatever reasons, your’s is not a marriage in which all four of the psychic cornerstones of human relationships–Physical, Intellectual, Emotional and Spiritual–are present and balanced. In a true, 100% meant-to-be-together-forever union, body, mind, heart and soul are all joined as one. Obviously, that’s not how or why you and your wife linked up for your relationship. That’s a big compromise right there, inasmuch as TRUE LOVE is just that–a balance and blending of each of these four elements in perfect harmony. Without such balance, the relationship will always be uncentered, and issues such as the ones you are now confronting will frequently and increasingly bring discord into the marriage–how sad for both of you that you have needed or been forced into such a situation, because happiness will never flow freely from it. I agree that you cannot make anyone else happy just as no one else can make you happy, we are all responsible for our own happiness, BUT the kind of baseline disharmony present now makes even that difficult to impossible to achieve–again, how sad for you both. I suppose the best sort of situation under these difficult circumstances might be to try a loving, supportive maybe even affectionate but celibate relationship for a while and see how things work out, while trying all the while to open the lines of communication and keep hope alive. Again, good luck to you both, and ya know, Carson–we all go through rough to impossibly difficult patches in our marriages, I certainly did. Optimism and faith do help…
Michael
The situation reminds me of a DVD I saw with David Deida once. It’s the only thing I’ve seen of him, and there was one thing that stayed with me from that DVD that was good food for thought. He said something like this:
There’s three kinds of spiritual work: Flow, glow and therapy!
One can develop highly in any or several of those three, independent of eachother:
- Therapeutic - working with the ego structure and mind patterns, personal development etc. It will make you a nicer person and a more calm and well functioning ego when maneuvering through the world. It’s good to do that, and sometimes absolutely necessary to get passed huge blockages and fears in order to live a decent non- self-destructive life. If we have a lot of knots and blockages in our system, then a bit of therapy might be absolutely necessary in order to open up to further spiritual work. The system is in a chock mode, and needs to be handled with gentle care in order for the mind to relax a bit and get ready for deeper spiritual work.
- Flow - working with the energies, the whole healing side of spirituality, balancing, doing yoga asanas and go into a healthy, free flowing, energetically fantastic mode.
- Glow - working with meditation and cultivating inner silence, having the Truth shine in your eyes and become very, very wise!
It sounds like your wife might be in need for a little bit of that gentle therapeutic handling before she is even ready to open up to the type of spiritual work you are doing, Carson. I think you are very wise in your approach towards her, and I do understand your frustration of the situation! If I were you, I’d trust that stillness/intelligence has the power to perform miracles in relationships if we only let it, by staying True to ourselves which opens the heart. The heart will tell you what to do in any given situation. Just listen inwards and let her be with and within your stillness as much as possible! (If you do samyama - why not add her name at the end of the sutras?!
)
Hi Micheal,
Well, as I was trying to indicate earlier, I know that my wife and I are not 100% meant for each other. And I knew this when I married her. I know this because I met my “soulmate” years ago and had a lengthy relationship with her (8 years, of which 7 we were engaged to be married) in which it did not work out. She is now married with 1 child and another one on the way. (she got engaged a month after I did and was married two months before me) We are still friends, but we will never be together again. I do not and did not expect that I will/would ever find someone else that could be as perfect for me as she was. I suspect she feels the same deep down, but I’m sure she would never admit it. She got married I believe for the same reasons I did. Insecurity apart from each other, need for a partner, and desire not to be seen by the other as still needing each other. Sad I know and I kinda wish I didn’t have to say this out loud. If my wife ever reads this I am in deep s#$t. Good thing she could care less about AYP and the forums! But regardless, you are right about there being “issues” with our relationship in that we are not connected on all four of the levels you said above. But I DO feel that these issues are overcomeable. That was why I wanted to open this thread and start figuring it all out. I DO love my wife and I DO want to be connected in all four areas, but I am satisfied even if we aren’t, and am happy to spend the rest of my life working to better our relationship. It is my fault we are together in this capacity and I’m not about to back out now!!
What I don’t think you understand Micheal is that neither of us is unhappy in our relationship. We are more then happy to have each other in ANY capacity and work to better it over the years, and do not have to have a perfect balance right away, or even ever! This is compromise for sure. But with this understanding in mind, I believe it IS possible to have balance. I understand exactly where we are from my perspective and I believe my wife is the same. And the issue we are having isn’t even that big of an issue. We are both pretty much happy for now in having a celibate but still loving relationship, at least until we can sort out her sexual issues. I am not unhappy and I know whe is not unhappy, at least not with me and our relationship. Happiness is not linked to anything. I do not need anything to be happy. I don’t need a wife, I don’t need sex, I don’t need anything. My pure awareness and connection to God is enough to keep me happy forever, so to say that happiness cannot flow freely in our relationship is not true.
How do you know that there is disharmony? I don’t feel disharmony in my relationship so how can you tell that there is? You think because we don’t have frequent sex that there has to be some sort of disharmony? What about Amma and her husband who NEVER had sex? You think there was disharmony there? They lacked the physical aspect of the four phsycic cornerstones of a relationship, yet I would gladly have their state of relationship! And please don’t say “how sad for you both”, cause neither of US are sad, so there is no need foryou to be sad either!
As of Saturday afternoon this is what we have decided to do. Stay away from sex until the two of us can sort out what is causing her to feel the way she does during it. This may take years, but I am in this for the long haul as I said, so that is ok with me. There is nothing lacking in our relationship other then sex by the way, and neither of us miss it that much, so it really isn’t that big of a deal. At least not right now. I can see it becoming a bigger deal in the future hence why I am trying to sort it out now. Make sense?
Thanks Micheal. Despite how it may sound, or how you may be interpretting what I am saying, I have both optimism and faith that all is happening as it should and the best for both of us will be what comes out of this. Thank you for all your advice and concern.
Love,
Carson
Hi emc,
Absolutely. But getting her to think about this problem let alone go to therapy with me is a real struggle. She seems more then content with the way things are now. Unfortunately as I said to Micheal this will likely only last so long before it starts to grow as an issue, and this is why I am sort of trying to nip this in the bud. Any suggestions on how to encourage her to want to seek help for this? Everything I have tried so far has not worked.
Yes this is sort of the approach I am taking. I am trying to take a little bit of a more proactive approach but I know I cannot force anything nor set the speed of recovery. Only she can do this. And I have had to cut samyama from my practices due to excessive crown energy as of late, but once I pick it up again I will obviously continue to let go of her in silence. If you want to include her in YOUR samyama her name is Deanna. Thank you for your advice and encouragement.
Love,
Carson
I’m thinking maybe you should be having more sex. 
Not trying to second guess you TMS, but can you explain to me WHY you think this? My WIFE definitely needs some time to sort out her sexuality, so me pushing for more sex right now seems like a REALLY bad idea to me. Mind explaining yourself a little more?
Love,
Carson
P.S. I feel lucky as I am able to write on the forum at work at the Drop In Centre tonight.
Okay I was being too flippant. Seriously, if your wife has sexuality issues, you might want to consider secular couples therapy; or she should see someone. Sexual issues should be sorted out, together if possible.
Yes sir… But how do you suggest I get her into treatment? (the treatment she really needs is regressed memory therapy) At this point she feels content to be celibate or to just please me in bed with no regards for herself. This is not healthy. And believe me and am involved in the sorting out of these issues. If it was left up to her it would be left alone forever I fear.
Love,
Carson
Hi Carson,
I feel the real issue here: does your heart ask you to be a spiritual sex worker for your wife ? If yes, do you have enough tools & knowledge to heal her this specific way ? If no, it might be best you stop looking for pre-orgasm activity through your’s wife vessel otherwise this will stir more individual & collective karma impossible to handle for the moment.
In Shakti, Albert