Carson also mentioned a more genuine concern - breaking vow. That is messier than a little problem arising from mere fabrication of mind. I wish people lived common-law relationships instead of making unnecessary vows created by some old men for the benefit of the society.
Good day Sister Katrine… 
What hasn’t already happened? What isn’t happening right now? All has already happened, all is already happening. All is now. I am prepared for anything and everything.
Yes of course. The confusion I have felt over this is quickly dissipating.
I think the fear stems from not wanting to hurt anyone by putting myself before them. I fear being spiritually selfish I think.
Words from the wise…You are where you need to be in order to learn what you need to learn. Of course.
It’s funny how we do this to ourselves knowingly eh? And then how Life uses this so-called “mistake”, or maybe a better phrase would be “lack of foresight”, to our extreme benefit. Take nothing for granted.
We are One after all…everything we see is just a projection of ourselves.
Thank you for sharing and being so open my sister (you started this emc…you are gonna get fed up quickly with all the “sista’s” I’m gonna throw around now http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic.asp?whichpage=1&TOPIC_ID=5843#52862), you are a wise friend indeed.
Love,
Carson
Hi emc…
There is a big difference I think between causing someone pain and causing someone to suffer. I know I can’t cause anyone to suffer; “Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional”…but I CAN still cause someone the initial pain that they can then choose to identify with which causes them suffering. I wasn’t meaning that I could cause suffering, just that I could cause the circumstance in which another could choose to suffer due to the pain I have caused them. There are many things we can do that may cause another hurt/pain. It is their choice to indentify with that pain or not, but it is not necessarily their choice to feel that initial pain. The causing of pain is what I would like to try to avoid. Make sense? Is this unreasonable?
Love,
Carson
Namaste all, I want to bow deeply to all posting, you’ve all made me feel like I am Home (on all (one 
)level(s). Om, Shanti
Welcome to the AYP forums dberetta…
You are home.
Love,
Carson
It doesn’t make sense at all, sorry, Carson. From my perspective you confuse pain with suffering and hurt in this matter - if we still are talking about breaking a marital vow and breaking up a marriage and leave a relationship. How can you be so sure that will induce emotional or psychic pain or suffering or hurt at all (I assume we are not talking physical pain here)? It might instead be a huge relief, lifting a great burden of stuckness and no pain at all but inducing a great sense of freedom. That’s my point - emotional or psychic pain comes from our thoughts, nowhere else, no matter what others do to us. It’s rather independent of identification. Even if I identify with my thoughts, I won’t suffer if I have a positive thought, no? That’s what Byron Katie makes a thing of - only do The Work to investigate your negative thoughts. The positive ones doesn’t harm, do they? Eventually detachment will occur also with positive thoughts, but in the beginning, why not start with those that cause confusion, emotional stress and mental pain?
If you have your mind set that leaving a marriage always contains pain on some level for any of the partners… I think you might have to ask:
- Is that true?
- Can I really know that’s true?
PS. And even with physical pain, you can never be sure that you succeed with your aim of inducing it on another! What if you happen to grab a person really hard when you’re angry… and that person smiles and says “Aaahhh, one more time, please, nobody have touched me like that in a long time. You see, I’m having ADHD and enjoy hard touch. Soft touching hurts me!”
Or it’s a masochist who thinks you’re doing him/her a service… There are so many options, and so many mistakes we can make when we assume we know what inflicts pain on others!
Hi Sister emc… 
Don’t be sorry. Nothing to be sorry for.
We are still talking about breaking up a marriage yes…but I don’t think I have pain and suffering mixed up. Pain is something that is not a choice (IME). Noone chooses to feel pain…it just happens. Identifying with that pain is when suffering enters the game. I don’t really see any difference between physical/emotional/spiritual pain…it is all pain. How we react to that pain is what matters. I cannot choose anothers reaction for them. BUT, I can choose to stay away from inflicting pain on others as much as possible from my current level of awareness. I choose not to inflict physical pain on another just as I choose not to inflict emotional pain on another as much as I can with my level of awareness.
All I can know is how I would feel in this situation myself. And I know that it would be emotionally painful for me because I HAVE been in this situation before from the opposite side. Do unto others… right?
It might be, but you can’t know that either. It might be the most painful experience of one’s life. I personally would rather stay away from situations that MAY cause someone pain, rather then choosing not to worry about hurting others by taking the perspective that only they themselves can actually hurt themselves.
Depending on your level of awareness I would agree. For those who are “sleeping” still, I would say that this is not true from their “reality”. At least this was how it was for me before I started to wake up. I think it is inappropriate to assume that everyone will react the way we would in any given circumstance, or that the way we would react is the “right” or “appropriate” way and theirs is “wrong” or “inappropriate”.
I know it was true for me. It really WAS true for me. The ending of my 8 year relationship was THE most painful experience of my life. I grew from this yes, but I would not wish that pain on anyone ever. I would prefer NOT to be a source for pain like this for another if at all possible.
Love,
Carson
I think it’s also easy to misuse the idea that nothing causes pain and that it’s all open to interpretation. I had probably the most wounding emotional experience of my life at the hands of someone who subscribes, in a very half-cocked and solipsistic way, to that kind of approach. And from where I sat it seemed like pure sadism, nothing more, nothing less.
The problem being, that if we aren’t as advanced as we think we are on the Path, the kind of spontaneity we’re talking about here is probably just self-justification (I’m debating here, btw, not finger-pointing - at least not to anyone here… 
)
I think it’s better to assume that if something seems to be hurting someone it probably is, no matter what the possible long-term ramifications might be. The future doesn’t exist, does it?
Namaste!
g
I think this is a good question–what is the point of monogamy if it is not conscious? If it is done because it is the norm, without thinking about it?
I have read a lot on polyamory. It’s much richer than it sounds. I can see why it would work for some. However, I’m not very impressed overall. It seems too easy to get bored, and look for someone outside the relationship to provide satisfaction, or even spiritual growth. Too easy to get scared to look so deeply into one other person (which monogamy facilitates). Too easy to say the other person just isn’t providing what I need, and that being with them but not others is too constraining. And that would all be projection.
Monogamy doesn’t preclude someone from being close with someone else and developing a deep connection. It does mean you have to be more careful with your sexual energy, and that you have to take a closer look in the mirror than you would otherwise. I think it’s a great opportunity, but you’ll get out of it what you put into it.
I totally agree, Lacinato.
Cheers,
gri
Hi,
I’ve read this thread with great interest as I have strong beliefs in monogamy but thats my choice.I have read the for and against with interest and noted what I believe are the dangers with both.
Monogamy (certainly in my case until my recent breakup of my marriage, 18 months ago) certainly restricted my spiritual growth simply because my wife was not the least bit interested in spirituality and felt I had a holier than thou attitude if I spoke of spiritual matters.So in my case I don’t suppose either way would have made a difference as it was more about us as people rather than remaining faithful to each other.
I think there’s a danger with condoning polygamy that the ego can somehow justify it in the interest of spiritual progress.Lets be fair the ego is responsible for most wrongs and rights we do.
After remaining celibate and not involved in any social life until recently I have formed a new relationship with a lady who is spiritually minded and we have laid down ground rules from the beginning which of course is not possible if one enters spiritual practices during a present relationship.We are open for the other to join in any pastimes etc but if we dont want to we wont expect the other to stop doing them simply because the other doesn’t want to do them.The only rule we have set each other is that we remain exclusive to the other.So I’m hopeful that this time things will be different as we are fortunate to have agreed these ground rules from the beginning.
Monogamy? There’s nothing greater than a love for another human being but when that love becomes a burden then I’m not for polygamy, I’m all for a complete severance for the sake of all involved and a fresh start.
L&L
Dave
I attended an Insight Dialogue retreat recently given by Gregory Kramer.
What’s that got to do with monogamy and polygamy, one might ask?
I’m not sure really, but my perspective on deep relationships changed during the retreat.
It was a 7 day silent retreat, except for the dialoguing which was done out of a meditative state.
We would meditate as a group of about 20 and then pair up and face each other. We would connect deeply (most of the time), often through the third eye and heart.
Gregory would give us contemplations to dialogue with and we would roughly follow a procedure of Pause(into silence), relax, open (expand), trust emergence(trusting what emerges out of the silence) and then speak the truth.
The experience of this for most people was a profound experience of deep intimacy with each other. This intimacy was the deepest I have ever experienced with anyone to date and it was done with total strangers, some male, some female, old, younger and one Buddhist monk and a Buddhist nun.
It has left me with a new perspective on the potential in relationships. Which potentially from the above experience could be monogamous or polygamous and still have the same core intimacy.
The essential nature of the intimacy was that there was nothing sought by either party.
We later did the dialogues in fours and I experienced an even more profound dept in this.
The work that this brings to oneself afterwards can be attachment to this core intimacy, deep loneliness through not having it. And all this is “grist for the mill” for self inquiry.
Having been shown this level of intimacy, which can be experienced with strangers, expereiced in meditation and with a good level of inner silence. It has changed my view on relationships and would recommend one of these retreats with Gregory to people interested in non-attached intimacy.
For me it does raise the question that it would probably not be possible without a regular meditation practice and the development of inner silence for both or all people.
That’s a wonderful post, Sparkle! Thank you!
That type of intimacy is so True, Deep and brings a lovely expansion of What we Are.
Not as a counterargument, only as an add on…
What comes to me was suddenly…
Before enlightenment, chop wood and carry water.
After enlightenment, chop wood and carry water.
Before enlightenment - get sexually (physically) intimate with someone and you’ll create a different kind of relationship with that person than with a friend.
After enlightenment - get sexually (physically) intimate with someone and you’ll create a different kind of relationship with that person than with a friend.
There is something about physical intimacy, even after all boundaries have been dissolved and Oneness and Love is all there is!
For example, we are suddenly not attracted to get physically intimate with someone of the same sex if we are heterosexual (or vice versa) just because we get realized as Oneness consciousness and everything is ecstacy and intimacy with “Myself”, with every being.
We would probably not be attracted to get physically intimate with just anyone of the preferred sex either just because we could feel that intimacy with everyone. Life would probably still guide us to the partner(s?) that would serve Evolution of consciousness the best, that we match with best! Some might be an expression of polygamy, some of monogamy…But I doubt there would be a natural polygamic development for all realized beings just because Love is One…