Delicate Subject; require advice

05. Satsang Cafe - General Discussions on AYP
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I have been reading posts on the forum for awhile now, have purchased several of Yogani’s books and read them and am now serious about dedicating myself to following a long-term practice routine. On the one hand, I am excited to venture into this new-to-me territory; however, I must admit, I am also somewhat frightened for the following reason:

Circumstances in my youth were not the greatest. The dynamics that existed in my family were such that a lot of anger was present. I was angry all the time. I was stressed out all the time. I thought to myself all the time. This lead me to find escape through working multiple jobs concurrently while also going to school which as you can imagine, only led to more stress. This in turn, compelled me, to try some certain “natural” substances albeit with a somewhat guilty conscience, but also under the guise of a clever rationale: to find out more about the nature of reality. This justification I wittily conjured up for myself was party truth, but the fact remained, it was mainly an escape.
Now, I did indeed become somewhat obsessed with yearning to discover more about reality. The problem was, however, I did it in an obsessive-thought based way (clearly the opposite of cultivating inner silence). My practice of thinking about reality I partook in while under the influence of natural substances and also not under the influence eventually had the effect of making my thoughts speed up DRAMATICALLY. I had never-before experienced anything like this…I could think at light speed (really fast) and it was rather fun. I used this alteration of consciousness to look at the world, my life, etc, in a different light. However, much to my horror, I eventually couldn’t stop thinking, which led me to become paranoid, have an ego-inflation, believe unbelievable things, and so forth.
To make a long story short, I eventually came to realize the fallacy in my thinking and actions, suffered somewhat of a break-down and had to resort to mainstream medicine to aid my recuperation for a few months. It has been a little more than a year than all of this occurred but the effects are still noticeable, especially physically. For example, I have skin crawling sensations and other bizarre internal movements and muscle twitches accompanied by extreme muscle tension - especially at the base of my skull. As well as a general lack of fatigue. Also my mind is somewhat chaotic; in a non-delusional sort of way (just cluttered).
A few things to note:
There was a brief period during the beginnings of my experience where when I began to start thinking I received somewhat of a jolt in my head. At that point I felt awake, more awake than I ever had before.
I could breathe more deeply and enjoy the air more than I ever had before. I felt infused with energy. I mention this because I believe it could be the result of me accidentally stirring up and/or unbalancing energies of the body

Now, I am rather worried that during the process of meditation my racing-mind might reemerge. At which point, I don’t know what I would do. My tendency, based on my past experience, would likely be to be consumed by my chaotic mind. Would anyone care to present their views on this scenario? Perhaps, in this situation I could just do extra meditation to get past this potential barrier.
Reflectively, I am rather appreciative for this daunting experience because it made me realize the effects of my issues and what can happen if they are not resolved. I tend to think that the natural substances amplified that chaos that was brewing in me. Yet, I wasn’t able to come to terms with it, until it was blown out of proportion.
So, I realize this is a rather extreme post here but I would sincerely appreciate any insight / recommendations that anyone here could offer.
Thanks

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Hi and welcome.
What you’re describing (and the way you’re describing it) is pure anxiety. Regardless of the facts of what happened before, that’s where you’re at now. And if you’re super anxious, meditation might not be for you…right now. Meditation is a very fine-tuning practice. If you enter it with tons of anxiety and a very fast-racing mind, it can increase one’s anxiety level.
Meditation actually does help (a lot!) with anxiety, but if you have a LARGE amount of anxiety, you may need coarser methods to fix the larger problems before you can use meditation to fine tune.
So…I’d suggest a serious course of asana study with a good teacher (I like the Iyengar method, which is very precise and safe, and the teachers are well-trained). It will make the “big” adjustments, calm you down, relax you, and tone down some of that chaotic mind.
That’s what I did…for two or three years…before I started my present meditation habit. And the meditation has been extremely productive, with extremely fast-paced results, because (in part) the asana work prepared me for it.
That’s my suggestion. Do that, get your energy more together, and then, when you’re feeling relatively calm (you’ll know, don’t worry!), try meditation for just a couple minutes per day (start slow). Nice and slow and easy. Follow Yoganji’s self-pacing directions to an extreme. And read his entire AYP book, so you have a feel for how to proceed.

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Hi Mattimo,
Your neck tension, find a good chiropractor.
If you feel inclined to meditation, to me, it is OK to start now. If not wait until you are ready. After all, the purpose of meditation is to calm you down, way down. :slight_smile: But just simple. Easy does it, steady as she goes. Self pace. No expectations. No pressure on your self. Meditation seems to always cool me out, really nicely, especially if I take time for relaxation afterwards. That is really important.
One time a bolt of energy released from the base of my spine, catapulted up my spine and jolted the top of my head (pow) :astonished: :grin: . Possibly this is what happened to you and you just did not perceive the release from down below. Just a thought.
Also, spinal breathing is supposed to be really good for balancing out the energy flow and purify the sushumna.
You have read the books, just apply the fundamentals according to your comfortable capacity.
The tortoise wins the race.
Asanas are also awesome. I am a big asana fan like Jim.
Wish you well, yb.

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Thank you taking the time to read my post and reply,
Jim and His Karma:
There is no doubt about it, I am well aware that I do have anxiety issues. However, during this year I have reflected greatly on this and myself in general. I have done much to try and remain healthy (mentally and physically - although somewhat to no avail) but feel as if I have calmed down considerably since my experience. What happened to me, I believe, was nervous tensions compounding for years which had never been released up until that point. My body and mind do still seem to remain at a point / points of tension, but I am confident I can overcome this since I am young and have the rest of my life to try and achieve it.
I have adhered to the meditation practice, for 10 days or so now, and for the last 2 days extended my practice time considerably. I am aware this isn’t necessarily advised but I cannot even begin to describe the relief I felt from meditating longer and more frequently. I could immediately feel bodily tension just sinking away (as best I can explain it). This was also accompanied by greater clarity of mind, which led me to ask the question I did in the previous post. My fear, I imagine, of something similar to my previous experience happening again, rationally emerged from my mind under the light of this newly-experienced clarity. Albeit, a very tiny ounce of quasi-clarity that pails in comparison to the true clarity all of you long-term practitioners out there have achieved. I suppose my fear is still a manifestation of anxiety - no matter how one looks at it. Perhaps it would be best all-together to not give any credence to such thoughts and to accept the fact that nearly everything is an “unknown” for me at this point. Perhaps I should be okay with that and flow with that. Then again, maybe I should just not think all-together; that would be best - no? :slight_smile:
I appreciate your advice with regards to the asana study, I may undertake that. I have been running regularly and stretching for 45 minutes after but have lapsed because of lack of energy. Perhaps I will tone down the running and do more stretching / formal asanas.
yogibear:
I have been to chiropractors before and it does temporarily feel good. Nonetheless, in my case, bone adjustments don’t do much to remedy the underlying muscle tensions in my body. Massage is pleasant also, but again, it only produces a temporary feel-good experience for me since my muscles are not just tight - they are REALLY TIGHT. Getting to the point that I really can’t bare to feel so horrible any longer.
As for the spinal breathing, of course I will venture there soon. But not yet, since I don’t feel quite ready. Perhaps in a month or two.
Thanks again

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In your case I’d lay off the running and opt for walking. Running can increase the stress and energy issues.
Asanas aren’t really about stretching. They just look like that to the observer.

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I agree with Jim’s advice. If you can get into a good asana routine it will completely prepare you for meditation. Your muscle tension problem will likely be taken care of without the need for a chiropractor. It is much more than stretching. It can work wonders. Good luck with your spiritual progress.

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What are they really about Jim? I mean what do they do that a good exercise and stretching prgramme wouldn’t do?

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Hi Mattimo,
Sorry to hear that chiropractic hasn’t helped. When you only get temporary relief, it can be because a few things:
The chiropractor is not on the right bone.
If they are on the right bone, they are not adjusting it in the right direction.
And it can be that there were not enough adjustments given.
Or that there was too much time in between the adjustments for the effect to accumulate.
So you see, it can be a number of factors, including the individual chirpractor’s skill level. It varies from person to person, just like any thing else.
I don’t have enough info to understand your situation fully. I don’t know if you have gone repetitively to the chiropractor over a period of time. If you go only one time, you can say, “oh, it didn’t help.” But that could be wrong. And that would be unfortunate if it was in fact the solution.
Often, you need a treatment program because the effect of chiropractic is cummulative and the nervous system needs to be retrained over a period of time so that the muscles receive the proper messages and contract and relax as they should.
So all these factors need to be in play for the outcome to be successful. If one of them is missing, it can prevent the desired result.
And of course, it can be that chiropractic is not the answer for your neck tension and that the cause is elsewhere.
You know best.
Chiropractic is more about optimizing nerve function than anything else. In fact, chiropractic and yoga asanas are the perfect compliment.
Asanas can be aggravating to the spine as well. When there is a problem in the spine, you can hurt it more with asanas. So, in your case, if you decide to take up asanas, to be safe, be extra careful if you are doing the headstand, shoulderstand, plow or fish or any other asana that focuses alot of stress on the neck region. But like I said before, I am a big fan.
Good luck, yb.

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Hi Mattimo:
It is suggested to focus on developing a steady routine that you can stay with for the long term. The approach you are taking with deep meditation will not do that for you, because you are almost certain to run into large releases by greatly increasing meditation time and frequency. Keep in mind that there is often a time delay in the effects, so you are heading for an overdose, and I suggest scaling back immediately.
Much better to become stable with two times 15-20 minutes. If that proves to be good for you over a month or two, then consider light spinal breathing (a few minutes before meditation), which provides for balanced energy cultivation.
As for asanas, these are very good too, in moderation, and well integrated with other practices. As Jim says, asanas can be a good place to start in yoga, but not everyone is inclined to do that. Follow your inner inclination, but use good common sense also. The AYP writings attempt to provide reasonable guidance for a full range yoga practices.
People come to AYP from many different backgrounds (asanas, breathing, kundalini, tantra, self inquiry, drugs*, etc.), and it always boils down to each person finding their own balance while integrating new and powerful methods of yoga into a progressive, stable and safe daily routine. It takes time, with prudent self-pacing being necessary every step along the way.
Wishing you all the best on your path. Practice wisely, and enjoy!
The guru is in you.
*PS: On the drug angle, see my recent post here: http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2702#23513
The spiritual inspiration sometimes provided by drugs is often offset by the obstacles that are introduced, as you well know. Yoga practices will help you dissolve the obstructions, but be very careful not engage in yoga practices in excessive ways, for this can lead to additional difficulties. In yoga, as with many things, more can be less, and less can be more. Keep it in mind. :sunglasses:

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Thank you for the replies everyones. I think it would be prudent for me to finish reading the lessons, and the asana books. Yes, I rather figured that I may be overdoing my practice, but my ability to withstand this jarring tension, especially in my neck, is at it’s threshold; so much so that it is even challenging to meditate as well as do day to day activities. I have even attempted to manually release the tension from my neck via self-massage, for hours daily at a time - and the relief I felt was very, very minimal. As everyone can imagine, therefore, my desire to remedy this physical set-back is the main reason for my extending the duration and frequency of my meditations. However, I suppose I should be logical about it and I have thus decided to back off from over-practice.
yogibear: I have indeed tried multiple chiropractic sessions and it did not help in the slightest. I have to come to believe that for me, chiropractic isn’t an effective form of treatment.
Jim and His Karma: Yes, I am aware of the theory that asanas are different from stretching in that specific postures calm the nervous system considerably. This may well be the case, and I will likely give them a go.
At this point, I am also considering taking up a qi-gong / tai-chi practice as well. That is, for the relaxation benefits. Anyone care to recommend a good style and form?
*Yogani, a special thanks for replying so quickly both here and in the email. I greatly appreciate it.

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this is good without over stressing the neck and joints but very relaxing and mildy energisinf for me.

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mattimo wrote:

I don’t have much faith in pure chiropractic myself, but how well it works is highly dependent on the practitioner. The basic premise of chiropractry is flawed in my opinion because the reason bones stay mis-aligned is because muscles are holding them there. That’s one reason multiple sessions are needed.
So it is imperative to understand massage and how to cause the muscles to relax and accept the correct alignment of the bones. Some chiropractors can do this, and they are very good, but they are rare. The strange thing is, there is no special name for the science of the integration of muscles and bone re-alignment, and very often these people can be called masseuses rather than chiropractors.
In fact the bone re-alignment can often be done completely through massage without “cracking” the bones at all. I think this more whole-istic approach
is in its infancy and is ahead of its time.

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What are they really about Jim? I mean what do they do that a good exercise and stretching prgramme wouldn’t do?

Hi Christi, Exercises are usually only on a physical plane. Asanas are combined with breathing techniques (many schools of asans recommend ujjai breathing with the asanas- the kind of breathing we do in the ayp spinal pranayama) and awareness. Therefore, asanas augment the cleansing process (as Jim suggested, at a somewhat grosser level than deep meditation and pranayama), as opposed to plain stretching exercises that work on the grossest and most superficial physical layer of the body.
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The two aren’t always clearly separated though. Many people have had kundalini experiences while doing simple backbends.

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Mattimo, I find that qigong is an excellent practice for grounding my energy and supporting my AYP practice. Wuji qigong is the form I use, as taught by Francesco and Daisy Garripoli; I participated in a wonderful two-day workshop they offered here last summer and have been working with their Qigong for Beginners DVD ever since (here’s a link: http://www.wujiproductions.com/products/qigong-for-beginners-dvd.htm). Typically, I do about ten minutes of qigong before and after my I AM meditation.
Sadhak, you make an excellent point about how asanas without breathwork are just stretching exercises. I’ve never practiced yoga asanas consistently, but it seems to me that qigong moves integrated with breathwork may accomplish the same purpose as asanas. Yogani, what do you think about this? You write in AYP that you’ve practiced tai chi (a form of qigong) for decades. Do the benefits of qigong/tai chi differ from those of asanas? If so, how?
What a wonderful forum this is! Be well, everyone.

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FWIW, the system I do - iyengar yoga - doesn’t do ujaya breathing in asanas. No special breathwork at all, though one does of course breathe during the poses :slight_smile:
christi, first, on the physical level, there are just as many poses that work on strength and balance as work on stretching. On an energetic level, these poses do the same sort of energetic work and purification that meditation does, only at a grosser, coarser level. Just doing generic “stretches” will not have this effect. The poses were conceived by spiritual giants, and they have remarkable effect on body/mind/spirit. If you’re full of anxiety, energy or emotional problems, or disease, asanas will quickly (i.e. in a year or two or three, if practiced daily) work through that stuff and clear you out to the point where you can sit and meditate without much mental/emotional/physical distraction.
And this has historically been the purpose of asanas. Traditionally, this is where you start an adept, and once s/he starts meditation, asana practice is de-emphasized and used strictly as a health thing, as the meditation starts doing the fine tuning work, after the coarser work of asanas has been done.
AYP believes that meditation is appropriate even for beginners. But anyone with a LOT of anxiety, emotional, physical, and/or mental problems is going to stress out trying to sit still and repeat a mantra for 20 minutes…it will be counterproductive. Asana is the answer. Not that it’s just some remedial course to get “prepared”…it’s not…it does the work, just with coarser sandpaper, which is useful for just about anyone starting out. I wouldn’t trade my three years of super intense asana work for anything, it REALLY launched me properly in the meditation that came after…not to mention transformed me from a physical/emotional wreck into someone more or less functional…who was then able to use meditation to find peace and happiness.
I’ve posted a lot more about asana, don’t have time to find it, but here’s something to take a look at: http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2173

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Hi Karmamechanic:
There is overlap in effects between asanas and tai chi, but there is a distinction. Tai chi is mostly grounding with some inner opening, while asanas are mostly inner opening with some grounding. This is why tai chi is good for helping to stabilize energy difficulties, and asanas are a good preparation for sitting practices, including spinal breathing pranayama and deep meditation.
As for breathwork during asanas, it is not specifically recommended in AYP, due to the possible “doubling up” effect with spinal breathing and other pranayamas used in sitting practices. Too much pranayama (with possible delayed effect) can lead to excessive purification and its associated physical and emotional discomforts. In AYP we suggest gentle awareness of natural breathing and body positions during asanas. We also have a samyama method that can be used as an alternative during asanas with good results – it is provided in the AYP Samyama book.
All the best! :slight_smile:
The guru is in you.

Tai Chi Starter Kit for Grounding?
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PS: It can also be said that tai chi (and Taoist methods in general) finds its origin in martial arts, while yoga postures have their origin in being aimed at relaxing and opening the sushumna (spinal nerve). The difference in origin may account for the variations in both practice and effects between these two systems. The overlaps are apparent, as are the differences.

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[quote=“yogani”]

Oh no! Yogani, I just realized…I’m following an exercise protocal from the book Mind, Body, Sport (I posted about it a few weeks ago). It recommends doing all exercise (aerobic, weight lifting, etc) with slow, calm, very deep inhale and ujiya exhale, and with mouth closed. It’s real smart and very helpful (I can get up lots of stairs without getting winded, weight training’s more intense, I don’t get as “anguished” while running). But I’m doing this 45 mins day or more every single day…so, yes, “doubling up” has to be an issue!
And now…I’m not sure what to do! Any suggestions?

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Hi Jim
Thanks for clarifying about the asana practice thing. I can see that adding pranayama to asana practice makes it into a powerful yogic practice. But I guess most people who do asanas don’t do this. If you are doing it, and it is causing doubling up problems, why not go back to gental asana practice with no combined breathwork?
You could be on a winner. :slight_smile: