What constitutes a helpful approach to faith?

17. Yoga, Science and Philosophy
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Hello,
I’ve been thinking a bit about the topic of faith lately.
In previous posts, others have noted:

  • Faith encompasses at least two aspects, namely: 1. Faith in the occurrence of something (expectation) – for example: “If I meditate, my life will improve in the long term,” and 2. Faith in the existence of something or the truth of a teaching (belief in facts). For example: “There exists an attainable goal of enlightenment.”

  • Faith is closely related to the topic of Bhakti.

I would like to learn more about your views on what constitutes a healthy and spiritually beneficial approach to faith. Here are some thoughts:

  • Some faith in the form of expectation is necessary for me to engage in practices (I believe that believing it will bring benefits; otherwise, I won’t take action).

  • However, too much expectation can lead to disappointment and perhaps even to theodicy (variations of the question: “Why does this happen to me when I am a good person / on the spiritual path / faithful, etc.?” – this question already appears in the Bible with Hiob. After 1945, theology in Germany faced a crisis based on this – it’s therefore a recurring issue that can cause significant suffering).

  • Faith can bring advantages such as trust in something higher during crises, connection with like-minded individuals, etc.

  • Faith can also bring disadvantages, such as inflexibility regarding practices, feelings of superiority, and division from others (“Only this is the true path”); strictness towards oneself and others (“I have to do it this way because the master taught it this way or it is written, and I feel bad if I can’t do it”), etc.

  • Faith in the form of trust leads to more letting go; belief in the form of content often leads to clinging.

  • Belief can be the result of experiences and thus may not be freely chosen (example: belief in high self-efficacy vs. learned helplessness).

  • Faith appears to represent a spiritual force that can be positive or negative, for example: the placebo and nocebo effect (I believe this will help me vs. I believe this will not help me or damage me).

My personal background is that while I was not raised religiously, I have had both positive and negative experiences with this topic on my journey so far. Positive in the sense of Bhakti. Negative in terms of not being able to let go of obviously false statements (simply because a master close to my heart made them) in a timely manner. For example, the idea that practice regulations on this specific path would not be necessary and other such thoughts.

I would be interested in your opinion on what makes constructive faith and how one arrives at it?

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Hi Annademiel,

Sorry for the delay coming back on this. Faith is very much a personal thing, depending on our inherent desire for truth and also our upbringing in religion or non-religion.

In AYP, it is about our Bhakti (spiritual desire/devotion), as you have aptly pointed out. It is also about repeatable causes and effects in practices. We know that if we meditate with an effective technique, there will be more abiding inner silence in our life over time. Even if our experience with that is limited, we see much evidence of it from the extensive recorded experiences of others. That can give us “faith” in the process of human spiritual transformation, which can keep us coming back to the meditation seat. And so on, as you have explored already.

My own experience with faith started in childhood Christian Sunday school, where it became apparent to me that a higher state of consciousness is possible for all human beings. I was not particularly religious in the traditional sense, but could not help but notice something important there at an early age. It took many years for me to come to practices that could make that come true, not only for me, but for anyone with “faith” in the possibility, which is why the AYP writings eventually happened. It takes a kind of stubbornness too for staying on the path, whatever it may be for us. So faith involves a resolve also, a stick-to-it-ness.

Below, I have put the question to the AYP AI for a more complete answer:

All the best in your faith and on your path!

The guru is in you.

Q: What role does faith play on the spiritual path?

AYP AI Answer: The role of faith on the spiritual path is fundamental, primarily serving as the essential motivational engine for undertaking and sustaining spiritual practices, and as a necessary trust in the process of inner transformation.

Key aspects concerning the role of faith, belief, and trust on the spiritual path include:

1. Faith as the Essential Ingredient and Driving Force (Bhakti)

In the context of the spiritual path, faith is closely linked to bhakti, which is defined as spiritual desire, devotion, or the love of Truth or God.

  • Engine of Practice: Bhakti is the primary engine of all spiritual practices. Without desire (bhakti), there can be no spiritual practice. It is the stirring seed of the awakening itself.
  • Source of Motivation: To be motivated to move toward enlightenment, it is necessary to believe in the possibility of the destination. This belief doesn’t necessarily have to be in “God” but can be a belief in ultimate truth, or in a personal process of transformation driven by practice.
  • The Chosen Ideal (Ishta): Faith involves devotion to a chosen ideal (ishta), which focuses desire and emotion toward the practitioner’s highest aspiration. This emotional connection is key.
  • Inner Guidance: The heart is considered a better doorway to the cosmos than the mind, and the spiritual path is about following the heart’s yearnings in bhakti. The longing for completeness (bhakti) is sacred and is considered the divine longing for expression—the inner guru.
  • Grace and Surrender: Bhakti and grace are seen as two sides of the same coin, where ongoing devotion (bhakti) and a willingness to act lead to living in a state of grace. Total surrender to God happens step-by-step with advancing experiences, fueled by the sincere desire to become more.

2. Trusting the Process and Outcomes

Trust, or shraddha, is vital, particularly when navigating the inevitable difficulties and uncertainties of spiritual development.

  • Trust in Practice: It is important to trust the process of meditation. When commencing practices like spinal breathing, it is suggested to “have a little faith and do the practice twice-daily”.
  • Overcoming Obstructions: When deep-rooted obstructions are encountered, or when dealing with phases of dullness and lack of focus, faith in the process is important to carry oneself through.
  • Assurance of Progress: If a practitioner can sustain regular practice over the long term, their awakening is assured. The challenge for many practitioners is trusting that the chosen path really leads to the desired outcome.
  • Focus on Consistency: What a practitioner thinks about their progress doesn’t matter as much as what they do consistently over the long term. The path requires persistent dedication to daily practice, which is earned through bhakti.

3. Faith in Relation to Experiences and Knowledge

Faith is involved both at the beginning of the journey and in moments of uncertainty regarding spiritual experiences.

  • Transforming Belief into Knowing: Mantras and spiritual teachings are often taken on faith initially. However, as ecstatic conductivity and inner stillness awaken through practices, the practitioner gains direct experience and is able to verify the truths for themselves, eliminating the need to rely on the word of others.
  • Skepticism and Balance: While healthy skepticism is valued as it reduces blind faith and superstition, it should not become so extreme that it eliminates the desire to seek truth.
  • Measurable Results: If inner experiences are not as frequent as desired, faith (bhakti) alone must sustain the commitment to practice until the experiences arrive. The best measure of spiritual progress is typically found in the improving quality of daily life, such as increased peace, happiness, and an inclination to serve others.

Faith, or bhakti, is therefore the crucial ignition source that motivates the spiritual aspirant to adhere to the discipline of daily practices. Just as a runner must believe that the distant finish line is real to commit to the marathon, the spiritual seeker must hold faith in their chosen ideal—their highest truth—to continue putting forth the effort required for inner transformation.

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That’s a very interesting topic.

Personally, I have never started a practice (or anything) out of faith or belief but out of curiosity.

Sey :pray:

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I’m a bit skeptical about faith. Faith is an idea reinforced, reaffirmed again and again. We can believe or disbelieve in almost anything if we hypnotise ourselves in repeated immersions of a particular ritual, chant or prayer. Faith is fickle and when tested, is likely to crumble.

Still, I’d say, if we pray to a deity, with what intent and approach are we praying? Hardly anyone I’ve talked to attempts to merge their heart, the God-spark within with the heart of the god being worshipped. That is effective because let us say the god we are praying to is closer to God in terms of spiritual growth and so by merging, we kind of piggy back on the god being worshipped to raise our vibration.

Perhaps better is to address Ramana Maharishi’s inquiry, ‘Who am I?’ in as that that does not come and go, the unchanging screen of awareness, immediate and intimate. This can be discovered only in time dissolved silence.

Questions cease when we become the answer ~

Aflame, aglow, like a cosmic dancer

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Hello and thank you for your responses,
I had understood it to mean that this is more about depth than speed.

At this point: I’m a bit sorry for flooding the forum with questions, but I’ve realized that while I have many opinions, very little of it is well-informed enough for me to say something in reply to questions. I used to often speak off the cuff in conversations, but today I notice that many topics go much deeper…

To Sey Sorciere: I would say that you believe there is something worth exploring, or at least you initially thought there could be—many people can’t even get that far when it comes to spirituality. But I can understand the curiosity: It’s strange. People read fantasy and dream about what it would be like to be an apprentice wizard, and when someone comes along and says, “It’s all real and much more than that, and the key is within you,” they say, “I’m not interested, I don’t believe it, it’s too exhausting.” I always wanted to explore that as well and cannot understand the disinterest and lack of enthusiasm.

To EntseekingSeeker:
As has already become clear, I am also skeptical about belief—that’s the whole theme. But when you look closely, you have to say: belief is indispensable; something is needed to get us started and then something to keep us going. Otherwise, yes: belief can lead to clinging and to (unnecessary) trials at all costs, and sometimes it means breaking when handled inflexibly. In a certain way, one can then lose faith in faith itself…

Here’s something else:

Son of Man

Phil Collins [Tarzan]

[Verse 1]
Oh, the power to be strong;

And the wisdom to be wise;

All these things will come to you in time
On this journey that you’re making
There’ll be answers that you’ll seek
And it’s you who’ll climb the mountain
It’s you who’ll reach the peak
[Chorus]
Son of man, look to the sky
Lift your spirit, set it free
Some day, you’ll walk tall with pride
Son of man, a man, in time you’ll be
[Bridge]
Though there’s no one there to guide you
No one to take your hand
But with faith and understanding
You will journey from boy to man
[Chorus]
Son of man, look to the sky
Lift your spirit, set it free
Some day, you’ll walk tall with pride
Son of man, a man, in time you’ll be

[Verse 2]
In learning, you will teach
And in teaching, you will learn

You’ll find your place beside the ones you love

Oh, and all the things you dreamed of
The visions that you saw
Well, the time is drawing near now
It’s yours to claim it all
[Chorus]
Son of man, look to the sky
Lift your spirit, set it free
Some day, you’ll walk tall with pride
Son of man, a man, in time you’ll be
[Outro]
Son of man

Son of man’s a man for all to see

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It is easy to believe when experiences back up your belief, and its connection to trust is real. I’ve learned from body conductivity how grounding it is to have energy radiating (especially in asana class) from fingertips and palms, the toes and foot pads, the heart and mouth and all three eyes. This has proven incredibly grounding, and confirms to this yogi the faith in this belief. Is it placebo? does not matter, believe until experience tells you not to anymore.

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Placebo was just an example of a form that belief can take and its effect. It has never been denied that the effect is real—instead, it seems that the placebo effect is misinterpreted (as without a real causing force, there can be no effect).

Placebo was meant to demonstrate that belief can take the form of a force capable of producing something concrete, whether positively or negatively. Regarding the experience with prana that flows through the body, I agree with you—I see no reason to believe it does not exist as a real form of energy.
However, if you ask psychologists what causes these experiences, ecstasy, etc., they provide a plethora of very material, physiology-based hypotheses. Currently, psychology, the science of the soul, neither believes in the real existence of the mind (energy body) nor in the real existence of the soul (consciousness); it denies the actual existence of the witness and posits theories suggesting that the “feeling” of experiencing this instance is merely caused by a neurological illusion. Consciousness is said to be created by the brain—or rather, the illusion of consciousness. In contrast, I believe that the body is only temporarily inhabited by consciousness. When you look at statements from psychologists, you quickly find things like “Any striving for an illusory state like ‘enlightenment’ is fundamentally pathologizing”—no joke. What we believe can thus make a difference regarding what is then done…

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Hi Sey

Totally like you….i never started anything out of faith…curiosity was the reason….

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