Okay, so, we all know that snipping the frenum underneath the tongue is no big deal, right?
(This statement may well be amusing to those who slogged through the great Kirtanman Whine-a-thon which effectively marked my entrance in to the Forum, a few months back ā¦)
Okay, so - I started snipping this past week.
Hurts just a little ā but not enough to be any kind of detraction.
My two questions are:
Location
The point with the greatest stress has seemed to range from immediately under the tongue, to down near the base of the frenum - so Iāve done little (VERY little) snips in several places (not trying to accelerate the process ā I know it doesnāt work like that, anyway - but mostly trying to be sure I have a real start).
Iām getting that down by the base is more likely the better spot - does this sound right?
(And no, I havenāt re-reviewed all the lessons and Forum threads - probably should ā in the meantime ā¦ ājust askināā!)
Depth of Cut
Per my paranoia surrounding lopping off my tongue ā¦ my snips have been pretty small.
I usually get a decent ābiteā kind of feel (a sorta sharp pain - but not even close to intolerable - and only for a second or two) - which results in a very tiny visible snip (almost non-visible) - and usually a really small amount of blood ā a tiny dot, that usually stops almost immediately.
My concern is:
Does it sound like the snips are too small?
They seem to fall on one side or the other ā making me wonder whether thereās enough of a physical cut all the way through / across, to create the lengthening dynamic.
Right now, I have an almost invisible little dot-cut right on the center of the frenum, near the base ā but even this seems almost too small to do any good.
And I think I may be getting a (tiny) bit more length, but hard to tell.
I want to go for something bigger / deeper (can you believe Iām writing this! ) - but the pain (mostly) holds me back ā kind of like Alvin wrote in another thread, very recently.
Obviously, thatās a kind of self-regulating gauge ā my question is: how do we know when to snip on through ā and/or if the snips are big / deep enough?
Thanks & Namaste,
Kirtanman
PS - It seems like I have plenty of length to get behind the soft palate ā and Iāve been trying to go all the way back to either side, as the Lesson suggestions advise - and I can even get my finger up into the right area without gagging (not far, or really āintoā - but I can pinpoint the exact location) ā any thoughts as to what I need to do to make it happen?
Maybe it is just a bit more length ā but it doesnāt seem that way - itās almost like: I can basically double my tongue back on itself, but I canāt get enough āpushā to lift up the flap, or if I do - the tongue slides forward.
Any and all comments welcome!
PPS - āCaptain, the Bhaktimeter - sheās gonna blow!ā - Scottianadna to Sri Captainkirkananda, from the famous Vedic TV series Duryatra ā¦
Finger help.
You can do it with finger help, period. Of course, there is always the possibility that physically you lack the capacity to do so, but that would be the most odd occurance. Iām just covering my basis here, so my opinion is that you can do it if you use the finger to extend the tongue back and extra inche or so.
I would bet that if you use finger help from now on, and play around with finger help, allowing the tongue to explore those regions of the mouth (on and immediately behind the uvula), you will enter into the nasal passage within a week.
The tongue needs to āsurveyā the uvula. Just like it does when there is a cut in the mouth. The tongue goes to it, feels it, obssesses over it, trying to feed the brain information on what to do.
If you can use finger help to get the tip of the tongue āpastā the uvula, then you can enter the nasal passage, because the uvula is the door to the passage. Think of the uvula like a string that you pull down to get into the attack. The uvual IS the door flap. And the entrance is gained by going behind the uvula, as there is no slit to enter in the front.
If you could grab onto the uvula and pull on it really hard, immediately under/behind, a hole would open up. That is the passage. But you donāt need to pull on the uvula, just get the tip of your tongue behind it, and then wiggle the tip into the little slip. Just let the tongue discover this, as it is very natural. Use finger help.
Keep us informed.
Hi Kirtanman:
See lesson 108 for the original snipping procedure. What you are doing now is consistent with that, more or less. Check ākechariā in the topic index for clarifying lessons, and here in the forums for many additional perspectives ā search on ākechari,ā ākhechari,ā āsnip,ā ātalavya,ā ātalabya,ā etc. Hint: It takes less stretch to be in kechari stage 2 than to get into it. Meaning, once you can get the tip of the tongue past the edge of the soft palate, it is a forward movment of the tongue (to less stretch) to bring the soft palate down like a trap door.
See sketches here for the trap door mechanics. See how the soft palate swings down and forward? That is toward less stretch for the tongue.
Perhaps we focus too much on the snipping, and not enough on the actual getting into stage 2, which is not nearly the stretch that most believe, once the edge of the soft palate has been passed. From there it is a move forward to less stretch. I dare say that most could be in kechari stage 2 now with the stretch they have. Getting behind the edge of the soft palate is greatly aided with finger help. From there it is a cake walk forward (with less stretch) to the septum. The soft palate is a paper tiger, folks. Look at the picture.
Beam us up to inner space, Scottyananda!
The guru is in you.
Wellā¦ I think staying the the middle is safer than close to the baseā¦ we try and snip at the same place every timeā¦ and if you are close to the baseā¦ you may run out of place to snipā¦ and may have to change your spot. When you stay at one spotā¦ you will see when the wound heals you will get an area of dead skin like a callusā¦ and when you snip there againā¦ I findā¦ the pain is less and I can cut a bit deeper without trouble. Soā¦ snipping a bunch of places at the same time may not really help. Andā¦ yesā¦ re reading the threads and lessons will helpā¦
I think you are doing fine. You dont have to make huge snipsā¦ little ones do the job tooā¦ or see if this helpsā¦ tooled talavya kriya
Like Kymn said, use your fingers to push. In this thread couple of Yoganiās posts helped a lot of us get into kechariā¦
Kirtanamanā¦ just keep at itā¦ and one day you will slip right into itā¦
Yogani, I think you are rightā¦ Perhaps we do focus too much on the snipping, and not enough on the actual getting into stage 2ā¦
Yogani wrote: [quote]
Hint: It takes less stretch to be in kechari stage 2 than to get into it. Meaning, once you can get the tip of the tongue past the edge of the soft palate, it is a forward movment of the tongue (to less stretch) to bring the soft palate down like a trap door.
ā¦
Perhaps we focus too much on the snipping, and not enough on the actual getting into stage 2, which is not nearly the stretch that most believe, once the edge of the soft palate has been passed. From there it is a move forward to less stretch. I dare say that most could be in kechari stage 2 now with the stretch they have.
[/quote]
This is my experience exactly. I have never snipped (although I am going to start soon) and I can get into stage 2 with ease. Give me one second and bam, itās there. I donāt have a long tongue either. Itās all about pushing forward once the tongue is in the passage.
A lot of it has to do with your level of relaxation in the tissues of your face. For a while, before I hit stage 2, I was pushing forward in the passageway and wasnāt making much progress. It was probably due to my soft palate being too tense. That lasted a couple of weeks. Then I reached the bridge tissue when I was least expecting it. I think your body just has to get used to doing this twice a day, and then it opens up to itā¦kind of like how you eventually get limber if you do asanas everyday. Being so desirous of attaining stage 2 can make you tense, which will actually keep your from reaching itā¦at least for a little while. So relax. But also keep reaching forward with the tip of the tongue.
Hopefully this helps, in addition to the help already given.
Major Thanks to all of you!
Very helpful!!
: )
Quick Follow-On Question - mostly to Kyman (per your post), and somewhat to Yogani (pwe your post) ā can you please specifically describe what to do with the finger(s), and how to do it, to make best use of āfinger helpā?
My experience is:
*Running a finger back to the spot (right-rear or left-rear of upper mouth cavity area - far back, and then far ācornerā to either the left or right) - helps me to understand and feel exactly what itās like - which is helpful to understand (I think) what I need to do with my tongue.
When I try to help my tongue with my finger, the following happens:
*The tongue kind of folds over on itself, in a very tight curl (from any angle - including the turned to the side dynamic that the lessons describe).
*Unfolding it doesnāt allow for enough force to push up the ātrap doorā.
*If it does unfold enough, itās too far forward once again.
*Same deal if I try to get under / behind the uvula.
*Same deal if I work in a second finger to try to push the base of the tongue back (to get height from a ladder against a wall, itās inherently helpful to move the base of the ladder close to the wall ā though I donāt know how much movement actually occurs, here).
: )
My guess, as much as Iām not thrilled about admitting it is:
It seems to be a ātetheringā issue - it seems like I have a very well-stretched tongue, that is rather tightly tethered by the frenum (are there any ways you know of to further gauge this?).
Thanks again - more on this soon, Iām sure!
: )
Peace & Namaste,
Kirtanman
Hi Kirtanman:
By āfinger help,ā I mean pushing the tongue back in the mouth from underneath (your ladder analogy), from whatever point under the tongue that is most effective to reach past the edge of the soft palate with the tip of the tongue. Once that happens, it is a forward movement into stage 2.
The edge of the soft palate may feel stretchy (like a rubber band) as it comes down the first time. That also takes some getting used to ā it stretches out and becomes natural in good time.
Yes, it will sometimes boil down to the limiting tether underneath the tongue, and that is why we focus on the frenum with multiple strategies. But, as Scott and others have pointed out, it is not only about that.
Of course, some are born with less frenum/tether than others. Whatever the anatomy is, there will be several factors involved. It is not only about snipping. It is about all of the factors combined. So we donāt want to get too carried away with any one aspect. The two most important factors are bhakti and patience over time (not forcing anything to the point of injury).
With bhakti and patience we will surely move from stage 1 to stage 2 sooner or later. Of course, these two qualities are naturally cultivated in daily deep meditation and spinal breathing pranayama, so there is a logical order in all of this. Kechari is an inner development much more than an outer one.
The guru is in you.
