Is it possible for the reverse thing to happen also, or could that just a misinterpretation of mine?
I feel more distracted when internally starting and repeating the mantra (I Am), than when just sitting down and paying attention to what’s happening (noticing physical sensations and thoughts). In my recent practice, when meditation has had a touch of unpleasantness, this was during DM. While just paying attention meditation has usually been very calming.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
Ruben
Hi Adamant (and Ruben).
I just received my copy of “The Discourse Summaries” in the mail today! Yes, Adamant, you did a good job of selling it… 
:0
TI
[quote]Originally posted by Ruben
Hi markern,
Thanks for your suggestions. I have tried embracing the tree; it makes me feel quiet but I also get some sensations between the ears, as with meditation.
This is the first time I hear about KAP. Are you combining AYP and KAP?
Ruben
[quote]Originally posted by markern
No I am doing neither at the moment but I plan on doing KAP and combining it with Vipassana in the future. I have just done some secret smile and a few other things Santiago (one of the teachers) told me to try. KAPs founder Dr. Glenn Morris did Zazen alongside of it. The way I see it KAP raises your kundalini fast and in a balanced way and thus gets you alot closer to enlightenment but you will then progress a lot faster to actual enlightnment if you add an insight meditation to KAP like Zen, Vipassana, Dzogchen, Advaita, Self Inquiry etc. KAP does not take that much time so I can do both. My motivation is partly to spead things up and partly to use it for balancing things out and partly to have a way of working directly with energy because I think it is fun and because there are health benefits to gain from more active energetic meditations not found in pure stilness meditation like VIpassana. If I have a chakra imbalance or if my spleen is messed up or a channel is closed KAP gives me means to work directly on it. At the same time the essential enlightenment work and the most of my practice time eventually will be just sitting and observing VIpassana style. So in a way this combo is not unlike AYP in that it combines a just let it happen part in meditation but also more active and specific work like the AYP pranayama but the energywork is more specific and concerned with energetic anatomy. This combo suits my temperament well as I would always choose something like Vipassana or Zen over a pure energy manipulation ystem like Chias but I am also realy drawn to such systems.
KAP is basicly some yogic techniques like chakra meditations etc. combined with some shamanic stuff and a little sufi stuff with safetys added from Taoism. The focus a lot on orbiting and running cool energy and on grounding and on doing the secret smile to keep things smooth. They also work with the three dan tiens. The also teach Tummo and something called five point breathing. The whole sylabus is based arround the five elements of yoga starting with earth and moving up. So Tummo is part of the fire element, there are chi kung walks for each element etc. There are A LOT of practices in it but those who do it say that the practices fit really well togheter and that after a while you learn to combine them so that 2 or 3 practices either become one new practice or that they can be done simultaniously. A ot of the practices are also just there as options you can choose from acording to your taste but are not necesarry. So there are stuff that helps with healing or martial arts or siddhis but that you don`t need and in some instances you can choose between to practices but you have to do one of them to make it work. For example you can either do Tummo or you can do a Kan and Li version to fulfill the same basic function.
The KAP people also has Umaa Tantra which is a much more yogic version of KAP. The still incorporate some Taoist stuff for safety with grounding and orbiting etc. but it is very yogic with use of Yantras and mantras and asanas etc. So the know very well how to add a few safeties from taoism to make yogic practices more safe and balanced.
Very interesting! Thanks for your extensive reply, markern.
Ruben
Dear friends,
I’d just like to point out that there are other teachings on body awareness apart from Goenka’s vipassana. Eckhart Tolle teaches this, and calls it inner body awareness; there is good information on this in the book “The Power of Now.” Another great book is “The Method of No-Method: The Chan Practice of Silent Illumination,” by Sheng Yen.
Both of these teachers talk about a total body awareness, rather than body scanning as in Goenka’s teachings. So the issue of too much attention put on the crown chakra doesn’t really apply when one is keeping awareness on the body as a whole.
I’m more drawn to keeping awareness on the body as a whole, and that’s why I like the two books I mentioned. Of course this is essentially the same method. Eckhart doesn’t attach a lot of teachings to the method, which is nice, but on the other hand, some of the Buddhist teachings can help deepen the practice. It’s nice to read and integrate different viewpoints. Neither Tolle nor Yen incorporate breath awareness much in their method, but both say that it can be used when needed to enter into the practice, such as when one is feeling agitated.
I don’t think it’s necessary to go off to retreat in order to learn body awareness; it’s a beautifully simple method (Goenka’s method involves more elements). In the case of the Goenka Vipassana course, not every one can, or would want to, sit for 10-12 hours a day. Of course, attending retreat can deepen ones practice, but don’t feel that you have to attend retreat.
Eckhart Tolle teaches keeping attention at the abdomen.
Adamant
You know who teaches total body awareness? The Buddha.
Adamant
Hi Adamant,
I have over 10 of Eckhart’s CD’s and DVD’s, several of his books and have studied his lessons intensely. In no place did I ever see that he recommends ‘keeping attention at the abdomen’.
The goal of ‘sensing the inner body’ is to feel the life force/prescence within the whole body as one cohesive unit. In “Practicing the Power of Now” he starts his instruction out by focusing on the feeling of one hand, then the other hand and then both at the same time. Gradually you expand this ‘sense of aliveness within the body part’ to encompass the entire body, which is the main goal. He also says that by placing consciousness in the body, it helps to slow down the mind and reduce the frequency of thoughts.
Where exactly did you find that he teaches to keep the attention at the abdomen?
TI
[quote=“Tibetan_Ice”]
quote: [/quote]Where exactly did you find that he teaches to keep the attention at the abdomen? :) TIWhen Eckhart is talking about breath awareness, he says to be aware of the rising and falling of the abdomen, and I think this must be what adamant is referring to. Attention on the abdomen has no special place in inner body awareness, it's a total body awareness. I created the post on other teachers of body awareness, not to say one is better than another, but just to point out there are different sources that may suit different people better.
Hi Adamant,
I have over 10 of Eckhart’s CD’s and DVD’s, several of his books and have studied his lessons intensely. In no place did I ever see that he recommends ‘keeping attention at the abdomen’.
The goal of ‘sensing the inner body’ is to feel the life force/prescence within the whole body as one cohesive unit. In “Practicing the Power of Now” he starts his instruction out by focusing on the feeling of one hand, then the other hand and then both at the same time. Gradually you expand this ‘sense of aliveness within the body part’ to encompass the entire body, which is the main goal. He also says that by placing consciousness in the body, it helps to slow down the mind and reduce the frequency of thoughts.
Where exactly did you find that he teaches to keep the attention at the abdomen?
TI
Hi TI, In "Practicing the Power of Now." Blatant Zen influence. Nothing original in Tolle. Adamant
Remember, that body awareness is a step. It’s an attention diversion away from thoughts. When the mind is sufficiently settled, one must not rest the attention anywhere and just observe the mind (choiceless awareness).
Adamant
Hi Adamant,
[quote=“adamantclearlight”]
Placing attention on the abdomen while breathing is just one short step in a series of steps which leads to dwelling in the realm of pure being, as described in the aforementioned quote.
The reason I point this out is because technically, Tolle is not saying to keep attention on the abdomen as a persistent practice, which is how one might interpret your statement.
Anyway, no big deal. I thought I’d just point that out. I’m a stickler for detail…
And it is also somewhat amusing that Tolle’s meditation and your post both denote body awareness as a step:
Hi Nathan,
Yes, there are many different sources and techniques. It is so nice to see someone else recognize that Tolle does mention a viable practice.
All the best to both of you.
TI
Let`s not forget Mahasi Sayadaw.
Dear friends,
Two months ago, I finally participated at a 10-day Vipassana course, in the U Ba Khin tradition (Goenka teaching).
It was a wonderful experience; so much peace, understanding and love have come from practicing vipassana and metta. I feel a remarkable difference in daily life since the retreat and my continuing practicing Vipassana as instructed in the course.
Before the Vipassana retreat, I was practicing hatha yoga and ayp (mainly spinal breathing and deep meditation; usually once a day; sometimes twice or not when doing other practices; eg at ashrams in India).
I plan to take more Vipassana retreats in the coming months and focusing on this technique. I find the technique extremely useful in daily life as it is easy to practice at any moment and come out of practice safely. The environment (whether in a quiet secluded place or in a noisy bus or train) can easily be made part of the practice. Practicing yoga can be a bit harder in busses or trains
I very much value ayp and would love to combine it with vipassana (body sweeping). Since the retreat I have managed to focus on body sweeping alone (with some hatha yoga, but no ayp). Once in a while I find myself naturally going to spinal breathing and/or DM (IAM) though. Short spinal breathing and DM feels like an excellent preparation for body sweeping when mind is a bit restless. For this reason, and as it seems appealing intellectually to combine a shamatha practice with vipassana, I consider combining ayp (spinal breathing and DM mainly) with vipassana (but not during the retreats of course).
I’d love to hear your thoughts on the following. As Christi has already pointed out, combining practices is recommended against by Goenka. In the book “The clock of vipassana has struck” Goenka is cited explaining how mantra meditation aims at bringing one in tune with a certain vibration (that of the specific mantra) while in Vipassana as taught by Goenka one observes any vibration as it occurs. At the beginning of the Vipassana retreat, it is explained more than once that by mixing practices one may do more harm than good: with one leg on one horse and another leg on another horse accidents are likely to happen
Now, specifically thinking of combining IAM DM and body sweeping: Do you feel the ayp horse and the Vipassana horse can galop together harmoniously or are they likely to galop in a different direction along the path so that it’d be wiser to choose one horse only?
Christi mentioned premature crown chakra opening with the body sweeping technique, describing it as a powerful energetic practice. My personal limited experience agrees with the power of the energy practice:
During the Vipassana retreat, as soon as the body sweeping practice was started (on the fourth day, after 3 days of observing breath and sensations around the nose area), I had kundalini experiences, loosing equanimity (eg. body shaking strongly, burning heat, strong headache, and a feeling that body was about to levitate if I’d not interrupt meditating). With further practice and after talking to the teacher of the retreat, I became more at ease with the body sweeping to the level that I’m now very comfortable sweeping up from the crown chakra to the toes and back.
Thanks for reading and sharing your thoughts,
Ruben
Vipassana or versions of it is widely used together with mantra, pranyama and other energy techniques and meditation techniques in Tibet, Thailand, Vietnam, China etc. I think it is rather the norm than the other way around. Basically it is the safest practice to combine with other practices as it just observes reality and does not do specific energywork. Mixing mantra with mantra or pranayamas etc. is much more tricky.
Hi Ruben,
Thank you for the oportunity to review Buddha’s teachings. You see, I bought “The Discourse Summaries of S.N. Goenka” a while ago because it seemed so similar to Tolle’s “sensing the inner body” that it intrigued me. And, now, with the realization that Buddha’s breath meditation is not about the breath at all, but about relaxing deeply and sensing the body, I am gaining a much better understanding of perhaps the ultimate path to enlightenment ala Buddha.
That said, the main difference between Tolle’s “sensing the inner body” and the “sweeping the body” technique is that with Tolle, you eventually sense the life force in the whole body as one cohesive unit, and eventually “listen using the whole body sensation”.
So, if I may be so bold I would like to comment.
From reading The Discourse Summaries (again for the third time), it seems evident to me that Goenka is saying that Buddha is the only person in history to discover that bodily sensations are the key to purifying the mind by eradicating craving and aversion. By becoming equanimous to bodily sensations, it eradicates the sankharas (mental formation, mental reactions). Once all sankharas are eradicated, the mind becomes the Buddha mind. It is quite the concept, to me. Like nipping pre-thoughts in the bud, before they have a chance to bloom and cause reactions and chains of other thoughts which lead to aversions or cravings…
Your statements are producing craving in my mind. How lucky you are to have attended such a retreat!
Goenka specifically states that one should not use fabricated mental constructs to focus on, such as a mantra. In order to initiate the cleansing process or eradication of past sankharas (mental formations), one must focus on the body and the sensations that arise with equanimity. So, in my opinion, Adamant’s statements are much too general, resembling blanket statements which need to be further defined.
In plain English, if you don’t get right down into the details of what each practice consists of, to say “A twice daily routine of shamatha practice, with pranayama and mantra, plus a small 5-10 min dose of vipassana (called self-inquiry around here) at the end of the session will win you the best experience.” is meaningless. Sounds more like an unsolicited endorsement of some kind.
And, Goenka is saying that mantra repetition is not going to eradicate the sankharas. One must wait until they arise, observe them with equanimity until they release and continute until the next deeper batch is ready to be released…
I have found that “sensing the inner body” is one of the most powerful practices that I have found. I do both mantra repetition, pranayama, spinal breathing (my customized AYP practices) and every now and then, when I don’t want to sleep at night (ha ha) I will do 35 minutes or more of “sensing the inner body”. At the end of it, I no longer feel my physical body as I become a cloud of magnetic bliss, dissociated and floating around… However, I keep the practices separate by three or four hours and do it only on weekends or when I’m feeling sick or down because it is way too easy to overload.
There is no mention of chakras or focusing on astral/etheric parts of the body in Buddha’s teachings. However, I too have had all the experiences you’ve listed by just ‘sensing the inner body’ and basically doing nothing more. It seems to all happen on it’s own.
There is also a set pattern that I follow. What I do is to start my focus on the hands, on feeling of the life force that surrounds the hands. I keep my hands facing upwards on my legs. Then, once the sensation in hands becomes tingly, feeling like two comfortably numb balloons, I notice the same sensation in the brow and face. Then I add each foot, then up the legs, then the arms, shoulders and chest… I keep going until the whole body is so relaxed and still that I float around. By that time kundalini is permeating my whole being and I have ecstatic conductivity that permeates about 1 foot around the periphery of the body. Just love it!
And, thanks again. I now understand that I must relinquish my craving for these sensations and learn to view them with more equanimity.
Anyway, I hope this helped you in your contemplation of mixing practices. One word of advice, the guru is in you, and if you seek guidance and direction from members on a forum, you leave yourself open to influences (sometimes with alterior motives) that may or may not be to your best advantage.
TI
Dear Tibetan_Ice,
Thank you for sharing your thoughts and experiences. I found your comments and suggestions interesting and valuable.
I have not read Tolle’s teachings on “sensing the inner body”, so I canot properly compare this technique with the one taught in the Vipassana retreat. It sounds very similar though, perhaps to the extent it boils down to the same.
In the 10 day Goenka Vipassana retreat it is indeed first taught to do body sweeping, starting with sensing sensations on small areas of the body bit by bit. Later already, it is instructed to symmetrically focus on more parts: as many as possible if the sensations are subtle and equal on all these parts of the body. So, if the sensations are subtle and equal all over the body, I deduct the whole body is being focused on at once. This was confirmed in a previous post by adamantclearlight who practiced the method at his home retreat after reading the “Vipassana meditation” by Goenka.
See the PS in Adamant’s first post of the 15th of June 2010 and the second post quoted here:
If I remember rightly, Goenka says - paraphrasing the Buddha - that the technique as taught by the Buddha 2500 years ago has existed long before the Budhha. Only, the technique had been forgotten and the Buddha’s contribution was to rediscover it. Goenka says the Buddha did not claim the technique to be his.
I feel lucky indeed
Happy to hear you’d love to participate at a retreat. I strongly recommend it. No need for craving, the retreat is available all over the world and free of cost (www.dhamma.org). You only need 12 days of your life.
In few days I will be following a retreat again.
Is this not a form of craving?
Perhaps. One has to make choices all the time, also in the spiritual practices one follows. Making a choice per se is probably not a craving. Having some desire (eg. for fast spiritual growth), that is a craving. If one makes a choice between practices equanimously, just for the sake of making the best choice, there need not be craving involved. The more there is selfish desire for fast spiritual growth, i.e. the less equanimous one is, the more craving and sankharas are involved. [quote="Tibetan_Ice"] Goenka specifically states that one should not use fabricated mental constructs to focus on, such as a mantra. In order to initiate the cleansing process or eradication of past sankharas (mental formations), one must focus on the body and the sensations that arise with equanimity. So, in my opinion, Adamant's statements are much too general, resembling blanket statements which need to be further defined. In plain English, if you don't get right down into the details of what each practice consists of, to say "A twice daily routine of shamatha practice, with pranayama and mantra, plus a small 5-10 min dose of vipassana (called self-inquiry around here) at the end of the session will win you the best experience." is meaningless. Sounds more like an unsolicited endorsement of some kind. And, Goenka is saying that mantra repetition is not going to eradicate the sankharas. One must wait until they arise, observe them with equanimity until they release and continute until the next deeper batch is ready to be released.. [/quote] I would love to read Adamant and other experienced meditators on this. In a previous post, ther has been some more explanation of the reason for possibly wanting to combine ayp (deep meditation) and Vipassana (body sweeping): [quote="adamantclearlight"] Essentially, when one is pursuing only insight practice, one's chakras and channels have not been softened by yoga. One is taking insight as the yoga. So one must patiently wait for the channels to open for the insight to happen. Then, even after the channels open, there is the flush of obstructions that causes really a lot of suffering. Because one is not practicing pranayama and shamatha, the suffering can only be overcome by more insight practice, so one must remain in retreat. If you leave retreat during this time, those half-open channels and half-flushed obstructions will remain like gunky crap in a sink drain, and make you feel crappy until you finally flush them out. In the AYP approach its a little opening on the chakra side and a little opening on the insight side (pranayama and mantra). The insight side comes after several months or years of channel softening. It's like cow skin. It has to be tanned and treated before it is supple and soft leather. You have to work it over and over. But if you get it soft, you can use it for whatever you want, make shoes, gloves, drums, etc. If you take that time to soften the channels, then the insight will naturally happen. So, unless you are going to follow the retreat route to completion, it's better not to start it. Because once you start it, you will have to finish the course. Insight glimpses just make you more hungry for more insight." [/quote] It seems there are many paths to Enlightenment, such as pure devotion, pure karma, deep meditation (with mantra), or a mixture of many paths as ayp. Perhaps, as we might understand Goenka, these paths do not directly eradicate sankharas. But it seems they do so indirectly anyway as they are paths to liberation (of sankharas) as well. [quote="Tibetan_Ice"] I have found that "sensing the inner body" is one of the most powerful practices that I have found. I do both mantra repetition, pranayama, spinal breathing (my customized AYP practices) and every now and then, when I don't want to sleep at night (ha ha) I will do 35 minutes or more of "sensing the inner body". At the end of it, I no longer feel my physical body as I become a cloud of magnetic bliss, dissociated and floating around.. However, I keep the practices separate by three or four hours and do it only on weekends or when I'm feeling sick or down because it is way too easy to overload. [/quote] Wonderful. [quote="Tibetan_Ice"] And, thanks again. I now understand that I must relinquish my craving for these sensations and learn to view them with more equanimity. [/quote] Beautiful insight. Thanks to the all who are teaching equanimity; the Buddha, Goenka and yogani being some of the teachers putting much emphasis on this. [quote="Tibetan_Ice"] Anyway, I hope this helped you in your contemplation of mixing practices. One word of advice, the guru is in you, and if you seek guidance and direction from members on a forum, you leave yourself open to influences (sometimes with alterior motives) that may or may not be to your best advantage. [/quote] Thank you for this. It's been a valuable contemplation indeed. Influences may come all the time and from all kinds of sources. My feeling is that on this forum people post mostly for the benefit of their own or of their fellow practioners' practice. That is why I hesitate very little to ask for opinions here.I'll stay alert though, thank you :). Best wishes, Ruben
.
did vipassana few years ago…i remembered the same thing what u said above Ruben…Lord Buddha just re used this forgotten technique…
Hi Maheswari,
Perhaps it is true or not. I don’t know. But this is what Goenka said in "The Discourse Summaries:
link: http://www.gurusfeet.com/files/buddhism.-.s.n.goenka.-.vipassana.discourse.summaries.-.ocr_.version.1.pdf
Hi Ruben,
Thank you for the interchange.
Yes, the final point of sweeping the body is to feel the whole body as one cohesive unit. From “The Discourse Summaries” Buddha said: (link above)
Tolle’s inner body is this:
link: http://www.soundstrue.com/guide/meditation/#!state_lesson_more_14
Here is Tolle’s Inner Body Meditation (Kim Eng):
link: http://www.soundstrue.com/guide/meditation/#!state_lesson_more_14
TI
Hi Tibetan_Ice,
Thank you for sharing these wonderful links!
I recognize the passage from the Discourse Summaries that you quote. It is spoken out by Goenka in one of the videos during the 10 day retreat. From this passage, it may seem as though Goenka implies that the technique was the Buddha’s contribution only.
Goenka uses ‘discover’ in this passage while at times he also explicitly mentions that the technique is not to be attributed to anyone (not to the Buddha either) as the technique existed before. Goenka also says in one of the videos that this was explained by the Buddha himself as well.
It may be that Goenka speaks of the Buddha’s contribution when comparing the technique to what his contemporaries were practicing.
While when he speaks about the origins of the technique, he emphasizes that the technique has existed before the Buddha’s existence.
Anyway, what exactly he means with ‘discover’ in the passage is not so relevant. What is relevant is the impersonality of the technique and the gratefulness of practitioners for its existence:
- In the course it is emphasized that practice is important, much more than the person teaching it (be it Goenka or the Buddha in his time). One illustration of this is the quoting of the Buddha’s humility as a teacher (eg. by saying that the technique is not his as it existed before him).
- On the other hand, Goenka has tremendous gratefulness to his personal teacher (U Ba Khin), and the whole lineage of teachers of the technique going back to the Buddha. Goenka often expresses this gratefulness by mentioning what the Buddha discovered without anyone teaching it to him (as the Buddha’s contemporaries did not know the technique). This does not mean that the technique did not exist before the Buddha discovered it.
Now how to interpret this? It might be that there have been people who knew and practiced the technique long before the Buddha did. It may also be that he only means that the technique (or its effectiveness) is always there as a Law of Nature/Universal Truth, whether someone discovers it or not. [In fact, Goenka mentions that the working of the technique is a timeless, universal truth in one of the videos. He compares it with the law of gravity: whether people know about gravity, whether they believe the law of gravity works or not, makes no difference for its existence, its being true.]
The validity of the first interpretation is probably not very relevant given the Buddhist perspective on time and space (with infinite cycles of mahakalpas each having their Buddhas…)…
Best wishes,
Ruben
[quote=“Tibetan_Ice”]
Hi Maheswari,
Perhaps it is true or not. I don’t know. But this is what Goenka said in "The Discourse Summaries:
link: http://www.gurusfeet.com/files/buddhism.-.s.n.goenka.-.vipassana.discourse.summaries.-.ocr_.version.1.pdf
Tolle’s inner body is this:
link: http://www.soundstrue.com/guide/meditation/#!state_lesson_more_14
Here is Tolle’s Inner Body Meditation (Kim Eng):
link: http://www.soundstrue.com/guide/meditation/#!state_lesson_more_14
TI