Hello everyone,
I’m very happy to have found this website. Reading it gives me peace of mind.
Apart from being new to this website, I’m also new to meditation, although I have been practicing asanas during the last year and did quite some research on yoga.
Before deciding to start actually practicing the key lessons on this website, it’d be truly interesting for me to hear your opinion or any suggestion on
(1) how closely the meditation practice on AYP is related to Vipassana meditation (http://www.dhamma.org/)
(2) the efficacy of Vipassana versus AYP
(3) whether you’d see major disadvantages in replacing “I am” meditation by Vipassana meditation; and why?
The reason I’m asking this question is that I’ve recently got to know about Vipassana meditation and am very much attracted to its total introspective focus (i.e. not focusing on any picture or word or sentence, merely observing within). I am therefore also considering taking the 10 day course. For this reason, it seems wise to be clear about which meditation to choose, as implementing both may well interfere with either’s practice.
Thanks for reading this, I’m grateful for any suggestion you’d be willing to share.
The guru is in you,
Ruben
I’m not very familiar with the AYP course but I don’t image that they have too much in common.
I would recommend the 10 day, it is quite an experience. It’s essentially self-observation and non-attachment.
You are taught to embody and employ non-attachment to the various experiences within one’s body…positive and negative.
This course if very helpful to have a direct experience of the more subtle energeries within our body. Day by day you get into more and more subtle dimensions.
The only issue I have with Vipassana is that you are constantly witnesses…thus you crystalize and solidify the witnessing entity, ie… the “me” and never really embody the “I AM”
However, the environment that is set up is very conducive to work, the environment is regimented and disciplined… you will get something out of it.
Love,
J
Hi Ruben,
Welcome to the forum.
Yes, as Wakeupneo says, the two approaches are quite different. Substituting vipassana meditation for deep meditation in the AYP system is not recommended. The two methods produce different results and work in different ways. Vipassana meditation of the type you are talking about is really a body sweeping technique which could almost be called pratyahara (internalization of the senses) rather than meditation.
Personally I would not combine vipassana with AYP as vipassana involves bringing the attention repeatedly to the crown chakra at a very early stage. Combining this with AYP practice, which works directly on the spine to awaken kundalini, creates the danger of prematurely activating the crown chakra. In fact, this danger is there with vipassana even without combining it with AYP.
I would try out both systems, and decide for yourself which feels right for you, and then stick with one or the other.
Christi
Hi Ruben and welcome.
I am also reletively recent to meditation (almost 2 years of twice daily sitting) and started with AYP but later evolved into something more akin to vipassna or even zazen (well, what I “practice” now has many names for what can be called “just sitting and being quiet”). This turned out to be the most fitting practice for me and I am sure you will find your own most fitting practice. For that you have only to be willing to experiment a little (very little is needed) and to follow your inner guidance or guru.
I did AYP meditation for 8 months and it was great. I was in quite a confused state of mind/body/soul and this type of meditation (I learned it from AYP because it looked to me to be a trustworthy site - see, the guru inside functioning saying “go this way” 
) worked wonders. Truly a miracle was what it felt to me. It is thanks to AYP that I discovered the wonders of meditation and that I still practice daily.
In my case that “voice” did not stop there though. At a certain point the mantra started to feel artificial. It felt like there was “something more”, or rather “something less” to get deeper and deeper. And so slowly but steady I came to realise that what works best for me is simply to sit and be quiet. All then happens spontaneously. In a way it is vipassana if you define it as observing whatever arises. But even that can be too labourously explained - for such a simple spontaneous thing. Basically you are doing nothing, and yet all is being done. You simply are.
Of course, to get to this state you may need a concentrative mind, and that is why mantra meditation (AYP style for example) or breath mindfullness can come up handy in the beggining, otherwise you will just be sitting there restless and not much gain can be made. Buddhists for example advice this 2 steps to meditation.
Now you have to find out for yourself what works out for your! Isn’t it exciting?! You are discovering your self!
All the best!
Hi Ruben,
Vipassana is a powerful meditation. You do not create any conflict by taking doing the 10-day retreat. Mantra is also powerful, and you do not create conflicts by practicing mantra.
Here’s what you need to know. Meditation is a union of shamatha and vipassana. The deeper the shamatha, the deeper the vipassana and vice versa. Shamatha means concentration and vipassana means seeing.
AYP, in terms of pranayama and mantra, effects a very very powerful shamatha: what Yogani describes as “stillness.” The AYP approach (and the tantra approach in general) is that once you have purified your central channel of all it’s obstructions you will automatically “see” deeply into the nature of “stillness.” The real plus here is that you gain a very solid and lasting sense of well-being, while you explore areas of the psyche that will otherwise be very disconcerting.
The vipassana approach (which is similar to advaita) takes a hard-core approach of “show it to me now.” The plus of this approach is that you will gain deep insight very quickly. The downside is that you will suffer for it, because your channels will not be ready and there will be great energetic discomfort (which in time your mind will interpret in dark ways). Now if you can manage the time (about eight months of total retreat time) you will make it past the “dark night of the soul” to accomplish the goal of bliss. However, if you are working a normal householder routine, and you are doing vipassana only, then you might go months between retreats, you will feel negative side of this path and it will spill over into your relationships and career. If you are only doing vipassana twice daily for thirty minutes, you won’t get anywhere. Vipassana requires retreats.
So you see how this is a circle? You can do just shamatha and eventually naturally stumble upon vipassana, or just do vipassana and eventually stumble upon shamatha. Or you can do both with balance, burn the candle’s at both ends. It will seem like you are taking it slow and careful. But actually you will be zooming.
It is better to combine. A twice daily routine of shamatha practice, with pranayama and mantra, plus a small 5-10 min dose of vipassana (called self-inquiry around here) at the end of the session will win you the best experience. You will set a foundation of inner well-being with shamatha, while slowly tip-toeing into the deep end. A lot of us, including me, have spent time banging the old head against the wall trying to maximize one side or the other. But the best way is the sane and balanced approach.
The result is so amazingly mind-blowing (literally blowing out the mind) that you DEFINITELY want to be prepared. And if you hang around this forum for a while you will come to recognize that despite the name, jargon or tradition, the result is the same. So without worrying about terminology or mechanics, just start doing pranayam and mantra. Slowly incorporate vipassana, just as you are taught at the seminar or retreat, in 5-10 min sessions after coming out of mantra. There are also self-inquiry instructions here which are a little different than vipassana, but very powerful as well. You will recognize the Infinite in no time.
All your old patterns of behavior are slowly going to dissolve, including your favorite mantras “I, me and my.” At the outset, drop all your opinions and views. It will save you tremendous time.
May all beings be happy; the only purpose to all of this.
Adamant
P.S. I AM is not about “I” or being. It is an ancient Sanskrit seed syllable “AYAM.” It has a nice energetic function within the central channel. Other than it’s function, it has no meaning. Self-inquiry method of looking into “I am” is something else altogether. Also, the best part of vipassana is direct realization of impermanence, karma and dependent arising (aka impermanence, unsatisfactoriness and no-self), and this is what the Arahants know.
Thank you adamantclearlight, Christi, wakeupneo and YogaIsLife for kindly sharing your insights and experience! Truly appreciated!
I will follow your common advice (to first try out both types of meditation: AYP on my own and vipassana in the 10 day course essentially).
Christi, would you mind elaborating on why eventually you’d recommend to make a choice and not combine? There may be a possibility that both meditation forms give positive effects, making it difficult to choose? I’m a bit surprised and puzzled by this recommendation as I read some enthousiastic posts of yours in which you explained how you (used to?) combine AYP and vipassana meditation.
Ruben
For more insight on shamatha and vipashyana please see this excellent article:
link: http://here-and-now.org/VSI/Articles/TheoryMed/theoryHow.htm
Moderator note: Topic moved for better placement
Hi Ruben,
There are two different kinds of vipassana meditation and they are very different. The kind that you are referring to (www.dharma.org) is a style made popular by S.N. Goenka and comes from the Burmese Buddhist tradition. As I mentioned above it is really a very slow body sweeping practice, involving the crown chakra at an early stage. If you go on the retreat you will learn all about it.
The other style of vipassana meditation is a form of self-inquiry practice. This is the one that I have combined with AYP practice without any problems.
The Goenka style vipassana technique is very much an energetic practice, and activates kundalini in a powerful way. If you were to replace AYP deep meditation with this practice, then you are effectively replacing a pure meditation practice with an energy practice. What is more, you would be combining an energy practice which directly activates the crown chakra, with some very powerful AYP kundalini stimulation practices such as spinal breathing, mudras, bandhas, bastrika etc.
That is why I would say do one or the other, but don’t combine the two. Certainly don’t replace Deep meditation with Goenka style vipassana in an integrated AYP yoga practice.
Christi
Hi Christi,
Thanks a lot for this clarification! It makes a lot of sense. I mistakenly put the dharma link. Actually, the vipassana 10 day course which I have in mind is the self-inquiry practice (http://www.dhamma.org/en/schedules/noncenter/nl.shtml)
In this case, would you advise implementing both deep meditation (AYP) and self-inquiry meditation (vipassana)?
It’s good to know there’s such a big difference between both vipassana meditation practices. That also explains the Goenka cult criticism on some fora probably.
Thanks for your much appreciated help,
Ruben
Hi everyone,
Anyone who could share thoughts/experience with holding the sitting posture for such the 10 day Vipassana meditation course? (self-inquiry one)
At this moment it doesn’t take too long before I experience discomfort while sitting in any proper sitting meditation posture.
Would you recommend practicing sitting postures intensively before registering to the course? Or make the pain-experience part of the total vipassana experience? When pain becomes the primary focus, is it really possible to release thoughts and increase awareness?
Ruben
Hi Ruben,
The website that you mention here is the website of the organisation which teaches Burmese vipassana meditation. Click on the website that you posted a link for just above and you will see the name Goenka about 4 lines down. It is not a self-inquiry practice but is a body sweeping practice, moving your attention around your body slowly as you bring your awareness to the sensations of each part separately. This is the organisation and practice that I have been talking about in this thread (Goenka vipassana) and which I would not recommend integrating with AYP. On the retreat you will also be taught two other practices, anapanasati (breathing meditation) and metta bhavana (a heart opening practice), but most of the focus is on the body sweeping practice.
The only exception to the advice that I am giving to not integrate the two practices is that I would say that once the crown chakra is open and stable then there is no reason not to integrate this (Goenka) vipassana practice and AYP if someone wanted to do so. It is really a crown chakra issue, and nothing else.
The only problem then would come from the other end. Goenka vipassana is very retreat based, and many Goenka retreat centres do not let anyone practice if they are combining their style of vipassana meditation with any other kind of spiritual practices (including AYP). This condition applies whilst in a retreat situation, or off it (whilst living your daily life). So getting on-going support from the Goenka vipassana side could be difficult.
Getting support from the AYP side would be easy, as it is open source.
If you are actually wanting to learn the self-inquiry vipassana practice, then you would have to learn it through a different organisation and different teachers. This practice involves inquiring into the nature of phenomena as they arise during meditation, specifically with regard to three conditions which are: being devoid of lasting satisfaction, impermanence and being devoid of self-nature. This practice can much more easily be integrated with AYP. As you probably know, self-inquiry is an important part of AYP and comes more to the fore as the witness rises naturally due to meditation and other practices.
I would agree with Adamant, that if you are going to combine these two practices, then it is best to add (self-inquiry) vipassana on to AYP (5 or 10 minutes after DM), rather than replacing the Deep meditation practice.
Vipassana meditation (of the inquiry kind) is really a combination of meditation and inquiry, so you would need to watch out for the extra energetic releases that doubling up practices could bring about. With careful self-pacing you will be absolutely fine.
Christi
Hi Ruben, Don’t jump to the conclusion that the criticisms of Goenka are justified based on what Christi said. He’s merely warning against premature crown opening within the context of an AYP practice, not criticizing Goenka. I agree with that. Traditional vipassana requires strict retreats over the course of about 8 months of total retreat time. Otherwise you will get caught in an in-between or it won’t work at all. Goenka’s version of vipassana is very wonderful. It appears to be a very fast path of purification. If you are doing AYP, then 5-10 mins of dissolving inputs from the skandhas into awareness is very powerful for the two session per day crowd.
I highly recommend you read Daniel Ingram’s writings:
http://www.interactivebuddha.com/mctb.shtml
Of special interest is his word .doc on vipassana. It only two pages and is a very concise instruction for an add on post-AYP Deep Meditation.
Adamant
Hi Christi,
This is very useful information, thank you so much.
Do you know of any reference where I could find more about the 2 different vipassana practices and where I could do the inquiry practice? Where did you do your vipassana course? (Do you know if there are any in the Netherlands? )
Ruben
The website that you mention here is the website of the organisation which teaches Burmese vipassana meditation. Click on the website that you posted a link for just above and you will see the name Goenka about 4 lines down. It is not a self-inquiry practice but is a body sweeping practice, moving your attention around your body slowly as you bring your awareness to the sensations of each part separately. This is the organisation and practice that I have been talking about in this thread (Goenka vipassana) and which I would not recommend integrating with AYP. On the retreat you will also be taught two other practices, anapanasati (breathing meditation) and metta bhavana (a heart opening practice), but most of the focus is on the body sweeping practice.
The only exception to the advice that I am giving to not integrate the two practices is that I would say that once the crown chakra is open and stable then there is no reason not to integrate this (Goenka) vipassana practice and AYP if someone wanted to do so. It is really a crown chakra issue, and nothing else.
The only problem then would come from the other end. Goenka vipassana is very retreat based, and many Goenka retreat centres do not let anyone practice if they are combining their style of vipassana meditation with any other kind of spiritual practices (including AYP). This condition applies whilst in a retreat situation, or off it (whilst living your daily life). So getting on-going support from the Goenka vipassana side could be difficult.
Getting support from the AYP side would be easy, as it is open source.
If you are actually wanting to learn the self-inquiry vipassana practice, then you would have to learn it through a different organisation and different teachers. This practice involves inquiring into the nature of phenomena as they arise during meditation, specifically with regard to three conditions which are: being devoid of lasting satisfaction, impermanence and being devoid of self-nature. This practice can much more easily be integrated with AYP. As you probably know, self-inquiry is an important part of AYP and comes more to the fore as the witness rises naturally due to meditation and other practices.
I would agree with Adamant, that if you are going to combine these two practices, then it is best to add (self-inquiry) vipassana on to AYP (5 or 10 minutes after DM), rather than replacing the Deep meditation practice.
Vipassana meditation (of the inquiry kind) is really a combination of meditation and inquiry, so you would need to watch out for the extra energetic releases that doubling up practices could bring about. With careful self-pacing you will be absolutely fine.
Christi
Hi Ruben,
I have done a few vipassana retreats over the years, but never in the Netherlands. I have done a few at Amaravati Monestary
in the United Kingom. These are anapanasati/ insight vipassana/ metta bhavana/ sound of silence based. What you actually get taught depends very much on the teacher who is leading the retreat as this changes.
I don’t know where you can find out about Goenka style vipassana, other than by going on a course, which is an interesting experience. As Adamant said, my comments on Goenka vipassana are concerning the integration of that with AYP and not a critisism of the technique, or the school.
There will be much on the internet about insight vipassana, and I am sure there will be books written about it. If there aren’t then there should be.
Christi
Hi Adamant,
I’m reading and re-reading your posts. Your words sound very profound.
Could you help me be clear about why repeated Vipassana retreats seem to be kept for those who choose to restrict themselves to Vipassana meditation only (not practicing AYP eg.)?
Thanks,
Ruben
Hi Ruben
Thanks for starting this thread,it’s been very interesting.
I would like to express thanks to adamantclearlight also for your contributions. I found myself nodding in agreement to everything you said.
I actively participate in mindfulness and have a particular interest in it’s development as a clinically proven system which is now available in some universities on their masters programmes.
Even so, I still find myself staying with AYP as my core meditation practice and then using mindfulness as my primary form of self-inquiry.
For me the two match perfectily and AYP, as has been pointed out, is very good at developing Shamatha or Inner Silence.
Personally I feel the general mindfulness movement falls short on this aspect and the gap is very adequately filled by AYP, for me at least, with a busy day and limited time for a lot of practice.
This is not a view held, however, by my mindfulness friends 
, but each to his/her own.
Hi Sparkle,
Your post is bhakti intensifying! Thanks!
Thanks again also to all of you who have made the effort to reply to my questions. Your effort has been a catalyst in many respects.
Ruben
The vipassana path requires retreats really, because the level of concentration required to attain realization into the three doors (suffering, impermanence and dependent origination) must be done over the course of 10-12 hours per day at a minimum of 7-10 days per retreat. Then, you have to add that up to about 8 months of total retreat time to achieve fruition. This is a tested course that has been repeated with precision for the past 2,500 years.
Essentially, when one is pursuing only insight practice, one’s chakras and channels have not been softened by yoga. One is taking insight as the yoga. So one must patiently wait for the channels to open for the insight to happen. Then, even after the channels open, there is the flush of obstructions that causes really a lot of suffering. Because one is not practicing pranayama and shamatha, the suffering can only be overcome by more insight practice, so one must remain in retreat. If you leave retreat during this time, those half-open channels and half-flushed obstructions will remain like gunky crap in a sink drain, and make you feel crappy until you finally flush them out.
In the AYP approach its a little opening on the chakra side and a little opening on the insight side (pranayama and mantra). The insight side comes after several months or years of channel softening. It’s like cow skin. It has to be tanned and treated before it is supple and soft leather. You have to work it over and over. But if you get it soft, you can use it for whatever you want, make shoes, gloves, drums, etc.
If you take that time to soften the channels, then the insight will naturally happen. So, unless you are going to follow the retreat route to completion, it’s better not to start it. Because once you start it, you will have to finish the course. Insight glimpses just make you more hungry for more insight. Then, once you get the insight, you will be like, “a damn, this is it? I should have taken this more slowly.”
I’m one of those knowledge fetish freaks that was starved for knowledge. I pursued it with aggression, like you wouldn’t believe. I paid the price. The whole dark night phase is a mother-f*'er. Waiting between retreats is awful and the mind becomes a torture chamber. Dharma teachers, rightfully, are very careful not to become attached to shamatha states. However, this is what the sangha is for.
My personal practice is extensive and most people cannot do what I do, unless one can spend at least 30 hrs/week practicing. The best approach for the two hour per day crowd who is interested in yoga and dharma would be 40 mins AYP plus 20 mins of Vipassana as instructed in Daniel Ingram’s 2-page Vipassana instruction booklet. Reading his book on the map of the path is very instructive. I’ve never seen anyone attempt something so thorough. His free book is an enormous contribution to our way of life. And if you read his book, he admits that he wishes, in hindsight, that he would have spent more time allowing for bliss states. I echo that forcefully.
Adamant
P.S. For the dharma crowd, consider (meaning try and see if you like) replacing the AYAM mantra with AUM (inhale A, full pause U and exhale M), which is a deep meditation on impermanence. Or, better yet, OM AH HOONG. I inhale OM, AH at the full pause and exhale HOONG. Yogani will warn you not to try try these, because they are too much too soon. But dharma people are into that. Also, I will sometimes visualize a flame shooting up the central channel instead of a golden thread. (In other words, I also do the vase breathing kumbhaka).
Hi Adamant,
Thanks for your reply, it clarifies things again. Still, I’m missing some pieces to understand more.
I can see that only practicing vipassana, with interruptions, can be painful for the reasons you mention.
Then, combining the information you kindly share and some requisites for attendants of advanced courses on the dhamma.org website
Satipa#7789;#7789;h#257;na Sutta courses have the same timetable and discipline as 10-day course. The difference is that in the taped evening discourses the Satipa#7789;#7789;h#257;na Sutta is carefully examined. This is the principal text in which the technique of Vipassana is systematically explained. These courses are open to serious old students who have completed at least three 10-day courses, have not been practising any other meditation techniques since last 10-day course, have been practising this technique of Vipassana for at least one year, are trying to maintain the five precepts in their daily lives, and trying to maintain daily practice. (http://www.dhamma.org/en/schedules/schmahavana.shtml#Satipatthana or http://www.dhamma.org/en/schedules/schpajjota.htm#sati eg.)
confuses me:
For many practicians a full 8 month dedication to vipassana meditation seems unfeasible. But then, why is it not allowed for people having taken the 10 day course to not practice any other meditation technique?
You recommend doing AYP deep meditation precisely to soften the channels. Why is this not tolerable for people wanting to pursue several 10 day Vipassana courses (as I understand from the above participation requisite for the Satipa#7789;#7789;h#257;na Sutta courses)?
Yes, at this stage, such extensive practice would, unfortunately, be unfeasible for me as I have a job which I’m not yet to abandon :). However, since I’ve started practicing yoga, many a times, thoughts have come to my mind that this may well be a path I’d wish to pursue. When time is ripe…
Downloaded the book yesterday! Listened to some audio’s in which he talked, has appetized me to read the book. Thanks for referring to it, Adamant.
Ruben