I’m currently reading the Yogananda’s “The yoga of the Bhagavad Gita” and there are a couple of verses that I’d like some help with.
In Chapter 8 “The Imperishable Absolute: Beyond the Cycles of Creation and Dissolution”, Verses 16 and 17 read:
“Yogis not yet free from the world revolve back again (to the world) even from the high sphere of Brahma (union with God in samadhi). But on entering into Me (the transcendental Spirit) there is no rebirth, O son of Kunti (Arjuna)!”
“They are true knowers of “day” and “night” who understand the Day of Brahma, which endures for a thousand cycles (yugas), and the Night of Brahma, which also endures for a thousand cycles.”
This feels counterintuitive to me - since, as far as I understand, the Brahman is this pure conciousness beyond (or inner silence) that we’re actually seeking. But these verses put this into question. Perhaps, ultimately, these states of expanded consciouness are not actually the target (even if abiding)?
Yet, the Gita promises that we can be saved through entering Krishna. Subsequent verses also talk about an “Immutable Absolute” that is not affected by these mentioned cycles. Verse 21:
“The aforesaid Unmanifested, the Immutable Absolute, is thus called the Supreme Goal. Those who attain it, My highest state, undergo no more rebirth.”
Honestly, I have a hard time following these verses. What is going on here? What could possibly be beyond pure consciousness (the Brahman)?
I think the merging of pure consciousness and ecstatic energy (prana) is beyond the pure consciousness. In AYP this is called stillness in action, or outpouring of divine love.
Books are fantastic in inspiring us to practise - but they fail to give us concrete answers. The answer we only get through experiences which are a result of practises.
So, I would not give to much attention such things. I like to read the version of yogananda with the bible…I get great energy from it, and it is bringing me to new levels of experiences. But taking the words for pure gold I think is not in the best interest of the reader.
I can´t answer your question from the highest point (I doubt that there is sth like this), because I am not there. What I can say you from experiences is that there is no end in sight. We are the combination of pure onciousness and prana, and prana always and forever evolves. So, there is no end imo.
You have received good advice from th1996 already.
In chapter 8 verse 16 of the Gita it is Brahmā that is being referred to, not Brahman. Brahmā is one of the trimurti, the three cosmic deities that together make up the cosmic functions of the divine.
Brahmā is not eternal, but is born and dies. His lifespan is long, spanning hundreds of thousands of the lifespans of individual universes. His abode is the Brahmā loka which is one of the high heavens. So this is why Krishna says that “Yogis not yet free from the world revolve back again (to the world) even from the high sphere of Brahmā”. [8:16]
A “day of Brahmā” is the duration of the existence of a single universe. Then, that universe ceases to exist during a “night of Brahmā”, with a new universe being born the following morning. Brahmā exists for 100 “Brahmā years” with each year having 360 days.
During a “night of Brahmā”, everything exists temporarily in an unmanifested state. Then that temporarily existing unmanifest becomes manifest with the creation of the next universe.
However, even though this unmanifest state existing during each cosmic night of Brahmā is temporary, there is an eternal unmanifest state that transcends all other temporary unmanifest states and temporary manifest states. This unmanifest state is eternal and unchanging and transcends even the life of Brahmā. This is the supreme abode of Krishna and the goal of spiritual life. That is why in verse 21 Krishna says: “The aforesaid Unmanifested, the Immutable Absolute, is thus called the Supreme Goal. Those who attain it, My highest state, undergo no more rebirth.”
Do check out Jack Hawleys version ‘Walkthrough for westerners’ . It’s written in a way that is much easier to understand than the traditional versions. It’s very clear and direct (for the subject ).
I really rate this version, as I don’t think of myself as a ‘scholar’, I don’t need big, super thorough texts.
As the others said, it’s the direct experience of these things that count, not our ideas on concepts that we have formed through scholarship. More often than not the ideas we create turn out to be inaccurate in the end.
@th1996 I had a hunch that stillness in action (or karma yoga) is the variable that is still missing. But somehow it felt like the puzzle pieces are not fitting together perfectly in my head.
It’s probably true that the exact words of the verses don’t matter, but I still do feel like texts like the Bhagavad Gita contain some important ideas that might be hard to grasp at first sight.
@Drystone If I can get my hands on ‘Walkthrough for Westerners’ (maybe as an ebook?) I will definitely take a look at how at the commentary for this chapter!
@Christi Wow, these lives and deaths of Brahma are a super interesting topic! Thank you for your thorough explanation!
How is “entering Krishna” (this ultimate unmanifest state) any different than reaching samadhi in the “high sphere of Brahma” (whether as stillness in action or stillness not in action)? Practically speaking, I’m just wondering whether spiritual practice (as in AYP) will lead us to Krishna or whether it will keep us stuck in a loop where we enter and eventually exit samadhi states (which seem to also be related to heaven).
Also, I’m having a bit of trouble with the term “unmanifest state*”* in general. Is it a possibility or situation that has not realized, as when I have a thought, a wish or a fear that ends up not realizing because I end up choosing something else? Can we perceive or experience an unmanifest state?
I am not sure if what I am writing here is what you are looking for and I don’t want to bring the “advaita stuff” in where noone asked for it, but as I am not sure I’ll give it a shot.
“Understanding” the ‘unmanifest absolute’ is not possible, as words are always referring to something that the mind is not capable of containing, or describing, or deriving from.
That which is underlying everything is beyond the event horizon of comprehension. It’s like a black hole in which there is no subject left to which the comprehending could occur to. Yet there is a seemless transition into it and from it, reaching into everything that we can talk about - be it on the scale of universes stepping into existence and falling back into dissolution, or the lifespan of a human being, or of a quantum state. Be it temporal states of samadhi or mundane stuff. It doesn’t matter really.
I know this may sound unsatisfying and as I said I don’t want to sound condescending… so please don’t take it that way. Also there is nothing wrong with trying to wrap ones head around the scriptures - obviously it’s happening, right?.. but pointing to the inability and limitations of the mind once in a while may be helpful, too… that’s my intention.
We are not capable of understanding the absolute essence of our nature but our being reaches into the realms of the black hole… into our nonexistence, into our own dissolution where we still “are” - never born and without fear. Time itself sprung from that and is (“for- and sinceever”) contained in it. It is literally beyond the end of knowing. We are that. Being, not-being, whatever… We can’t tell. Not even the word “being” is sufficient, for there is no subject to be. It’s the heart… the core… the paradox… all containing, all-pervasive… nothing is different from it - however complex or simple, or big or small, or eternal or momentary.
So maybe it’s simpler to think in 2 boxes… that which is beyond the event horizon of comprehension and that which is within…
So, looking at verses 16 and 17 of chapter 8 (again) we have:
“Yogis not yet free from the world revolve back again (to the world) even from the high sphere of Brahma (union with God in samadhi). But on entering into Me (the transcendental Spirit) there is no rebirth, O son of Kunti (Arjuna)!”
So, there are two fundamentally different groups of people. There are the yogis who are not yet free from the world on the one hand, and then there are those who have “entered into Me (Krishna), (the transcendental Spirit)”
Those who are not yet free are bound. In the text, Krishna says that people remain bound because of craving, desire and anger. These in turn are born of rajas (the fundamental quality of over-activity and agitation). He says they are also bound because of attachment to the fruits of action. They are also bound through ignorance, laziness and delusion. These three are born of the fundamental quality of tamas which is inertia and slothfulness. Krishna also says that beings can be bound through attachment to happiness and knowledge. He goes on to say that ignorance, not knowing one’s true nature, is the underlying cause of all the others. This fundamental ignorance causes beings to believe they are the “doer” of their actions, rather than seeing that the cause of everything is simply the Divine (Krishna).
Beings living in this condition are fundamentally not free, and they are fundamentally not free regardless of their experiences. Even if they are in the highest states of samadhi, perceiving only the highest heavenly realms, they will still be fundamentally not free.
And the road to liberation that Krishna prescribes is to relinquish all the fruits of one’s actions, let go of desire, clinging and craving, meditate on the Divine (Krishna), surrender oneself fully to the Divine (Krishna) and understand one’s true nature as Divine (Krishna) through self-inquiry practice. So, these are the paths of Karma Marga, Dhyana Marga, Bhakti Marga, and Jnana Marga.
However, once someone is no longer ignorant of their true nature, has abandoned desire, craving, attachment, and aversion, then they are no longer “bound” and are free, and “enter into Me (Krishna), the transcendental spirit”. So, “entering Krishna”, the ultimate unmanifest state is a special kind of samadhi. It is samadhi with no ignorance, no seed (bija) that can take root later on, no samskaras (deep-rooted mental tendencies), no desire, attachment, or aversion, and in full knowledge of our true nature as that which is transcendental to all the realms of being (prakriti).
So, the question you are asking is, is AYP some lesser school of yoga, that gives people temporary high samadhi experiences, even, possibly, as high as the highest heavens, but does not actually release them from all ignorance allowing them to attain full liberation from which there is no longer any return to the realms of suffering?
The good news is, that it is the latter.
In fact, Yogani talks about all these higher aspects of the path in the lessons. It would take far too long to go into it all here in the forum, but if you have not done so already, I would suggest reading the lessons from around Lesson 235 through until the end. It is around 200 lessons, so it is a lot. But it is also a big topic! Yogani talks about devotion to our highest ideal (Bhakti Marga), about the surrendering of desire (Karma Marga), about disidentification with the objects of the mind and senses (Jnana Marga) and about the realisation of the true Self through meditation (Dhyana Marga). So, it is all there, only in slightly different language than that used in the Gita.
When Krishna says “entering Me”, he means “entering Krishna Consciousness”. This is the same as Christ Consciousness and is the same as advaita, nirvana, moksha, kaivalya, unity, and unmanī avasthā. It is a state of being beyond dualistic perception. Yogani describes this in lesson 350:
As this shift occurs over time, it can be said that we are moving beyond the witness, because we are no longer observing objects as being outside ourselves. Even as everything is still moving, we do not see it moving, and this is the condition of no objects subject only. What we see is stillness moving, only One, a paradox for sure, a different experience than the two of observer and observed, though the mechanics of perception are still operating as before within this rising unified non-dual experience. [Yogani]
Yogani does not mention Krishna Consciousness in the lessons, but he does mention Christ Consciousness, which is the same thing:
As for what is next once inner silence and ecstatic conductivity are coming up, it is a long drawn-out joining of these two, played out as much in our daily activity as in our practices. This gives rise to the “child” of the union, as it were, called “jivan mukti,” or “christ consciousness.” This is the end game of yoga, and corresponds to what I call “outpouring divine love.” It means we increasingly see the world as our own self and act accordingly – “doing unto others” in service. That, in turn, accelerates our advancement into unity, which is another word for jivan mukti or christ consciousness. [Yogani]
This state of being, that of unity that is beyond the mind, that is Krishna Consciousness, is beyond manifest creation, beyond form and beyond thought. This is the eternal unmanifest. So, it is not thoughts that have not yet been acted on. Thoughts are also manifest. They are also an aspect of prakriti. So, we cannot perceive, or experience an unmanifest state as it is beyond perception and beyond experience. We can only know it through being it. And we can be it through transcending all the things that keep us bound, which is what all the practices in AYP are for.
This is why Michael (above) wrote that:
“Understanding” the ‘unmanifest absolute’ is not possible…
We cannot understand it, as the mind is not an adequate instrument. But we can know it, because our true Self that is beyond the mind, is it.
Thank you for making an attempt of explaining to me something that might be unexplainable by nature
I think that it is really helpful to point to the limitations of our understanding sometimes - especially in spiritual matters!
Hi Tristan,
I couldn’t have imagined a more thorough answer! So thanks a lot for putting your time into this.
One thing that your answer really cleared up for me is the samadhi question. To see it spelled out clearly that a deep samadhi does not imply true liberation.
I think I kind of knew the answer to question about whether AYP leads to liberation I have seen you talk about it before.
I have read only the first of the AYP karma yoga lessons, around lesson 340. Reading those was having a really big effect on me energetically, and I eventually paused it for the time being.
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