Transitioning from Tao to Tantra

[asarghmatey (Carlos Ramos)]

I have a long history practicing the techniques taught by Mantak Chia in his book ‘the multi orgasmic man’. I’ve recently started following the AYP lessons. I’ve gotten as far as the ten minutes of pranayama before deep mediation. I don’t want to skip ahead, as I understand the AYP lessons are meant to be followed in order. Here is my concern/ question.
When having sex (or even sexual thoughts) I’m in the habit of practicing ‘the big draw’. This is very similar to pranayama, except you move the energy down the front of you after it gets to your head, rather than moving it back down your spine. I’m tempted to switch to just doing pranayama during sex instead. Would this be advisable, or should I continue with the big draw until I get to the Tantra lessons on this site?
Thanks in advance

[BlueRaincoat]

Hi asarghmatey
In AYP, we do not practice any breathing technique during sex. That is not to say it’s wrong to do it, it’s just that the practitioners here are unlikely to have the answer to your question. From an AYP point of view, the advice would be to just enjoy the intimacy during sex and leave yoga for your allotted sitting sessions, except when you are advanced enough to start practicing blocking, which is a tantric practice (described in the tantra lessons).
One thing I can say is that you should be careful about doubling up pranayama practices. I read in another post that you have recently taken up spinal breathing. Depending on how often and for how long you practice ‘the big draw’, you may be risking overdoing pranayama and possibly getting into an energy overload as a result.
Yogani generally advises against mixing and matching from different practice systems, unless you are advanced and are filling in known gaps in your practice/development. Your call of course - this website provides a wealth of techniques and a lot of self-pacing advice. The onus is on each of us to manage our practice and progress safely.
All the best

[Dogboy (Michael)]

Hello asarghmatey,
Wise words from my friend Blue Raincoat regarding too much energy directing practice. It sounds as if you already feel prana flow within, but you may be in need of more Inner Silence to balance the equation, obtained via dedicated DM. When I first experienced ecstatic conductivity, I too revved it up and tested the limits. Thanks to AYP for instilling in me the importance of self pacing, I never pushed it so far Should I fall off the cliff. AYP’s tantra lessons taught me the endgame is not orgasm but arousal in and of itself, and how that plays out in an ocean of inner silence. At this stage, in arousal or sexual congress, you will not need to push-pull prana this way and that; in fact surrendering into whatever is generated is the ‘embodiment’ of ecstasy.
Edit:wording

[Charliedog]

Hello asarghmatey,
Wise words from both Dogboy and Blueraincoat. It could be a relief to develop inner silence, nothing will be lost, what we will receive is balance. This is not an answer to your question but I felt a pull to reply this.

[asarghmatey (Carlos Ramos)]

I should mention that I’ve also practiced vipassana for about 15 years, so I’m familiar with inner silence, just with a different tradition.
To get some clarification, you guys don’t move energy around, or direct your energy during sex?

[sunyata]

Hi asarghmatey,
Here is a lesson that may help.
Tantric practices, spinal breathing and DM are very powerful practices compared to Vipasana. I would err on the side of caution.

Lesson T33 - Spinal Breathing During Tantric Sex? (Audio)
AYP Plus Additions:
T33.1 - Practicing Deep Meditation and Samyama During Tantric Sex? (Audio)
From: Yogani
Date: Thu Jun 10, 2004 2:48pm
New Visitors: It is recommended you read from the beginning of this tantra yoga archive, as previous lessons are prerequisite to this one. The first lesson is, “What is tantra yoga?”
Q: There is a vama (left-handed) form of kriya that is practiced during copulation, called Cobra breath, which has 4 stages of practice. This appears to be a fast-track method of the regular kriya, with rapid benefits. Yet in these lessons you have told us to practice the spinal breath in two sessions outside of tantra practice. But if spinal breath can be done during tantra practices with immense benefits, then why have you not recommended spinal breath with sexual practices?
A: Spinal breathing can be done during tantric sex. The reason it has not been covered in the lessons yet is because I was waiting for someone to ask, and you did! There are several reasons why we have not jumped into it already. The reasons have been touched on in the lessons.
First, sexual relations do not lend themselves to being done by the clock – not at a certain time twice each day, and not every day without fail.
Second, sexual relations do not lend themselves to being regulated in duration – so many minutes of this practice and so many minutes of that practice.
Third, combining sitting practices with tantric sex can lead to additional releases of obstructions that must be regulated in some way so as not to become excessive.
Fourth, the occurrence of sexual relations is most easily left to serendipity, which is how it naturally happens. This is not in synch with any of the above, but can be overridden by the discipline of mutually dedicated practitioners.
The time-related matters are of great importance in yoga. Without regularity and correct measurement of practices, yoga can quickly fly out of control, and quite a few people in the main lessons have commented in the Q&As on aspects of experience from sitting practices related to this. In fact, most of the Q&As are about pacing practices to accommodate experiences. It can be a tricky business to keep balance in advanced yoga practices. For this reason, using sexual relations as a primary means for yoga is like trying to row a small boat across the ocean in a hurricane.
Does this mean spinal breathing should not be done in sexual relations? No, it doesn’t mean that. It means that it should not be considered to be primary practice, which, in the main lessons, is measured by the clock twice daily before breakfast and dinner.
If we engage in sexual relations, whenever that happens to be, then we can consider using spinal breathing, or, for that matter, any other sitting practice. I’m sure many have thought about this already, as you have. There are a lot of practices to choose from. But there is a challenge, you know, and that is the matter of the possibility of stimulating excessive release of obstructions in the nervous system.
We will know it has happened by how we feel later on after sexual relations that have been blended with spinal breathing or other
practices.
Being in sexual union during spinal breathing is powerful indeed. But power does not translate immediately into progress. After all, we have huge power available already in our sitting practices, if we could only absorb and use it all. But we can only go as fast as our nervous system can accommodate the release of obstructions, and therein lies the limiting factor. There is no limit on power in these practices, with or without sexual union. So, again, it gets back to regulation of practices through self-pacing.
The same thing applies in tantric sex, though not so much in using the holdback method to facilitate long preorgasmic unions. This does not usually lead to excessive releases – just more and more ecstatic bliss, which stays with us even as we enter our sitting practices later on. This is why the focus here has been on holdback and long preorgasmic unions. It does not usually cause imbalances in our internal energies, and sets up our nervous system for wonderful sitting practices later on, the next day, or whenever our sitting practice time arrives. This is the real payoff that comes from tantric sexual union, and only long preorgasmic unions are necessary to produce it. There is a lot to be said for doing tantric sex and sitting practices in series (separately), rather than in parallel.
With spinal breathing added to sexual relations, there will be additional release of inner obstructions in the nervous system, and you will find a need to regulate the practice to avoid the excesses that can happen. This is a bit tricky when in the throes of lovemaking, unless two people are so in tune that they can sit in union face to face, propped up with pillows in a “V” formation (or other semi-vertical position), doing spinal breathing for 5, 10, 15, or however many minutes are suitable for both partners. It doesn’t sound very romantic, does it? Well, to let it go on and on could lead to too much release for one or both partners, and much crabbiness later on after the lovemaking is over. Try it and see. Powerful spiritual practices are powerful spiritual practices no matter when they are done.
So, do you see why we have not gotten into this before? It leaves the door open for complications and potential difficulties. In the lessons we want to stick with approaches that are simple with minimal difficulties, while at the same time very effective for purifying and opening the nervous system to divine experience.
So, instead, what we do is bring sexual stimulation gradually into our sitting practices in a measured way using siddhasana, mulabandha and sambhavi (very sexy with ecstatic conductivity). Practices such as nauli/uddiyana, chin pump and spinal bastrika become quite sexual in the middle to later stages also. All of this we can regulate within our sitting practices. There can also be good regulation when combining practices with masturbation. But even that can get out of hand, leaving us crabby and with a headache. It is all in the measuring. If we do too much we can be stymied and uncomfortable for a while as the energy excess and imbalance corrects itself. Yoga practice is about releasing obstructions in a way that we can continue day-by-day over the long run, with ecstatic bliss gradually building up and overflowing into our daily activity.
If you have a partner you can work with in a measured way during sexual intercourse, you may be able to self-pace practices in lovemaking with smooth results. If so, then by all means go for it. But be mindful that lovemaking is a serendipity event, potentially an extra boost on the path of yoga, and it is wise to always regard daily sitting practices as the primary yoga.
If we can handle the huge extra energy generated by combining spinal breathing, chin pump, spinal bastrika or yoni mudra kumbhaka with preorgasmic sexual relations, it can be a big boost. On the other hand, it can end up fizzling for the reasons mentioned above. Experiment and see what happens. And then – apply self-pacing.
Or, just enjoy long preorgasmic sex with your lover whenever it happens, and be assured that the ocean of ecstatic bliss you both have gained will still be available when you sit on your respective meditation cushions for twice daily practices.
The guru is in you.

[asarghmatey (Carlos Ramos)]

Thank you. That was really helpful. It encouraged me to read ahead. The stopping method is much simpler than the big draw. And since it doesn’t necessarily involve manipulating energy, I’m comfortable using that even while still learning the other AYP practices.

[asarghmatey (Carlos Ramos)]

Another time I find myself habitually using the Taoist drawing technique, is when I happen upon sexual thoughts at inopportune times. I don’t want to walk around at work with an erection pitching a tent in my pants (for example). I can use the Taoist drawing technique to quickly pill the energy away from my groin, so the erection goes away. Is there anything similar in AYP? So far I haven’t found anything.
Thanks again to everyone for all your help.

[BlueRaincoat]

@asarghmatey

I can use the Taoist drawing technique to quickly pill the energy away from my groin, so the erection goes away. Is there anything similar in AYP?

Hi asarghmatey
There isn’t an exact replacement for this in AYP. Grounding and keeping fit go a long way towards keeping sexual energy in check (and they are useful things to do anyway).
I would say you can continue to use the drawing technique in ‘emergency’ situations. Using it on regular basis would raise the issue of integrating it with your AYP practice, but if it’s only infrequently, I should use it if it solves the problem. That is of course just my opinion.
Perhaps other AYPers, especially guys, could chip in?

[asarghmatey (Carlos Ramos)]

Thanks for all the replies.
Another thing, is that when I’m sexually active, I often feel a pleasing sensation moving from muy perineum to my sacrum. Very similar to the ‘falling back into nom-ejaculatory orgasms’ that taoists speak of. Except it stops at the sacrum and doesn’t move up the spine. Is this normal with tantra, or is it a relic from my old taoist practice. And is it safe?