This is a continuation of a post from Omstat and myself about the role of an Ishta and when it is time to let them go.
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=15791
A couple of topics come to mind from the discussion.
First, Does everyone believe that you will get to a point that you will have to let go of an Ishta to realize oneness?
Second, Do you believe that their is a Path of Light and a Path of Darkness?
Tom,
Both of your questions are interesting. My answer (for what it is worth) says that on both questions the believes will change during progress to realization of oneness.
My answer on this moment would be not the same as it would be some years ago, so it all depends on the perspective. We are the changing parts, in eternity. 
[OM]
Not many beliefs going on here 
Openness to and amazement at the richness of possibilities.
There are countless paths, all of them will reveal both Light and Darkness within and without (for as long as within and without are being perceived to be real).
Those favouring all that is light, tend to gently suppress the darkness that they face to transform it into light.
Those favouring a path that could be considered dark, i.e. self-centered, would diminish emotions as love, compassion in favour of enlarging their self-importance at the expense of others (until awareness has grown enough to perceive oneself as all encompassing, hence caring naturally for all life and transcending the path).
In the end, it boils down to the same as clearer awareness can emerge in both approaches. The awareness reveals that Self is all-encompassing.
Peope have both light and dark tendencies within, often unconscious. Most may witness what occurs, rather than favouring either. So, they would not fall into following either path. This is why it may seem hard to believe there exists such a thing as a path of light or darkness to the majority of people.
Some do polarize, especially those religiously inspired. They may strive a whole life to be good (or in the other extreme to indulge) and learning lessons on the way. Few would stick to polarization and rather approach life in what could be called The Middle Way.
The reason why few will remain in the extreme polarities is that very soon the other side of the polarity will reveal itself externally. It has to if one keeps growing. The more one strenghtens oneself in being Light, the darker the challenges. The case of the Tibetan sufferings illustrates this wonderfully, but anyone who has been highly committed to light (or darkness) could witness as the growth keeps happening. Another way to say it simply: One who sees angels, is more likely to perceive demons and vice versa. One who remains closer to the middle is less likely to witness either extremes.
Hi Jonesboy I meditate on that which underlies all Ishta’s in fact that which underlies you, me and everything.
So that is abstract as can be until you get the experience then it is very concrete and real. After this becomes concrete Lightness and Dark and Ishta’s all become just something extra on top of this even as our earthly lives are.
Not to go too far off topic but consider this entire life is very short and temporary that which underlies it is eternal and developing into more awareness of it’s own nature as it stands now anyone Human reading this is in the Human phase of development, there are many stages in the human phase, sadhana helps finish the human phase.
What I describe is not some lofty realization or state everyone can get it in a flash in a moment and from then on it will be permanent and known.
In my opinion having a proper Ishta is probably helpful to people with very devotional, emotional personalities but once a person encounters that which I just explained the need for a manifestation no longer exists.
In the other thread I brought up the purpose of the Ishta in short it is for liberation. Liberation equals finishing up the Human stage and becoming the next stage. Yogani calls this Human Spiritual evolution.
To get to that though via an Ishta to me is doing things the hard way, the practices one does if they be effective will in time actually bring everything to fruition.
I believe the practices of AYP can do this because in my experience while not the same as other older traditions there is enough similarity in the results to feel the similarities.
Beautiful post, So-Hi!
Hi Tom,
Good Questions. Excellent answer from So-Hi as always.
I’m sure everyone has had oneness experiences including the ones who are not pursuing spiritual practices. They may not be familiar with the spiritual lingo and may not be able to label it. Having gone through the experience of oneness for months 24/7. In that state not only there is no Istha, even the carpet in your living room is made from the silence. It’s hard to function in that state. However,I think AYP practices is focused more on the grounded oneness and this is where Yogani’s teachings have helped tremendously.
I agree with So-Hi, the path one take depends totally on the temperament of the individual. However, having a higher ideal/Istha is always good. I think Self Realization does not guarantee Human maturity. No wonder we hear about all the scandals with the spiritual teachers. I think having a higher ideal keeps one humble. Even having the Sun as an Ishta helps because Human existence would not be the same without it.
We discussed light and dark in another thread. I think a person who is focused on Self Realization always picks the Path of Light. The person who chooses the path of darkness will sooner or later come back to the light path.
Please feel free to disagree. I’m coming from a certain stage in the path. I am still in the shackles of Maya 
. The liberated souls may be able to give a different perspective.
Sunyata
Nice reply Charliedog !
The only thing I have to say about your post is that their is more beyond oneness. Their is depth… Not everyone is a Ramana or a Baba with the ability to “know” or to “enter anothers body/mind”.
[quote=“Omsat”]
That is not true of course. Just because someone sees angels or demons has nothing to do with anything you have mentioned before.
It just means they have there 3rd eye open. If they are seeing a demon it usually means they are inviting the demon to them. That has been my experience with people who have negative entities… They feed off of their issues.
If you are seeing an angel, all seeing is just the local mind interrupting the light. A being is sending you light and your local mind/3rd eye is seeing an angel. It could be an angel today or some being the next.
Seeing or going even deeper to knowing is a natural spiritual progression. Trying to find a method that ignores it is going to create issues.
Yogani say’s that if Jesus comes up to you during meditation to ignore him and return to your practice. He is correct.
There is nothing wrong with hanging with Jesus after practice… nothing at all.
Hi So-Hi,
Thank you very much for posting. For being willing to have a nice discussion about things. I love your bhakti btw.
With that being said… I disagree with you too 
What?
Yes it’s true 
An Ishta is an advanced spiritual being. In some traditions they call them Bodhisattvas. Very advanced beings who are willing to help others.
Is Shakti or Yahweh or Jesus or Avalokiteœvara real beings? Are they someone who if you call will help you at all or is it just a mind thing for people who are devotional, emotional personalities?
Why do a mantra for Avalokiteœvara or Shakti?
Yes they are real. Each and everyone of them are real and here to help all of us.
The reason I disagreed with Omstat when he mentioned that Ramakrishna had Kali to firmly fixed in his mind is because that is a very common practice.
Yidam deity practice is very powerful and very well known.
I have seen this said over and over again. The path does not stop at oneness. There is more to the path… Stopping there is just half the battle.
Merging with divine beings has been a known practice for thousands of years. Merging with such beings expands one faster than any other practice I am aware of.
If one can merge up the chain, one can merge down the chain so to speak.
Yoga Sutras of Patanjali: http://www.swamij.com/yoga-sutras-33949.htm
3.39 By loosening or letting go of the causes of bondage and attachment, and by following the knowledge of how to go forth into the passages of the mind, there comes the ability to enter into another body.
(bandha karana shaithilyat prachara samvedanat cha chittasya para sharira aveshah)
[Note: In some renditions this is sutra 3.37 or 3.38]
•bandha = bondage, attachment
•karana = cause
•shaithilyat = relaxation, letting go, loosening
•prachara = passages, means of going forth, moving through
•samvedanat = by knowledge of
•cha = and
•chittasya = of the consciousness of the mind-field
•para = another, other
•sharira = body
•aveshah = entering into
Entering another body: By loosening or letting go of the causes of bondage and attachment, and by following the knowledge of how to go forth into the passages of the mind, there comes the ability to enter into another body. The advanced yogi may use this power to operate through another body in service of others, such as for guiding sincere students of meditation
As I have said, there is more depth to be had than just oneness. Working with Divine beings is a very real way of first getting to oneness and then increasing ones depth.
A further example would be to take a look at the etymology of most Deities. Notice how they have expanded or included one being and then they kind of took them over. Expanded within there space and then continued on.
That is an example of a spiritual being continue to progress along the path.
- Sorry I have a meeting and I haven’t had time to proof read this for errors before I post.
Much love,
Tom
Hi Jonesboy unity is not it, beings are not it, anything your mind can describe is not it, that which underlies all of that go there and know, or do not, there are many pleasant things in between but they are not the ‘description-less it’ being shared about, it has to be done by the individual.
That is not true of course. Just because someone sees angels or demons has nothing to do with anything you have mentioned before.
It just means they have there 3rd eye open. If they are seeing a demon it usually means they are inviting the demon to them. That has been my experience with people who have negative entities… They feed off of their issues.
If you are seeing an angel, all seeing is just the local mind interrupting the light. A being is sending you light and your local mind/3rd eye is seeing an angel. It could be an angel today or some being the next.
Seeing or going even deeper to knowing is a natural spiritual progression. Trying to find a method that ignores it is going to create issues.
Yogani say’s that if Jesus comes up to you during meditation to ignore him and return to your practice. He is correct.
There is nothing wrong with hanging with Jesus after practice… nothing at all.
We keep the love flowing :) I think you misunderstand some of what I say, but enjoyed your replies. Notice I didn't use the words good and bad. The words light and dark are not used in a judgmental way, rather to denote certain qualities. One of the allusions is that all is energy whether it manifests on one polar side or the other. Hanging out with Jesus or anyone is definately not something I would disadvise :slight_smile: On the Jedi's existence: Would you give omstat's and jonestoy's existence more chance? :stuck_out_tongue: :grin:
Hi So-Hi,
I would say yes and no.
Yes, absolutely it is the individual that has to let go. There should be no doubt what so ever that a guru can help speed that along. Is that not what Krishna, Jesus and Lahri were? Guru’s helping others… They help to provide the energy and the space/silence for the person to let things go.
I would also say that it is not description-less. It has been described many times.
Here is one that really helped me.
Self Liberation through Seeing with Naked Awareness
By Padmasambhava
[quote=“Omsat”]
That is not true of course. Just because someone sees angels or demons has nothing to do with anything you have mentioned before.
It just means they have there 3rd eye open. If they are seeing a demon it usually means they are inviting the demon to them. That has been my experience with people who have negative entities… They feed off of their issues.
If you are seeing an angel, all seeing is just the local mind interrupting the light. A being is sending you light and your local mind/3rd eye is seeing an angel. It could be an angel today or some being the next.
Seeing or going even deeper to knowing is a natural spiritual progression. Trying to find a method that ignores it is going to create issues.
Yogani say’s that if Jesus comes up to you during meditation to ignore him and return to your practice. He is correct.
There is nothing wrong with hanging with Jesus after practice… nothing at all.
We keep the love flowing :) I think you misunderstand some of what I say, but enjoyed your replies. Notice I didn't use the words good and bad. The words light and dark are not used in a judgmental way, rather to denote certain qualities. One of the allusions is that all is energy whether it manifests on one polar side or the other. Hanging out with Jesus or anyone is definately not something I would disadvise :slight_smile: On the Jedi's existence: Would you give omstat's and jonestoy's existence more chance? :stuck_out_tongue: :grin:
Hi Omstat, You are correct and please forgive me for not saying clearer that you did say that light and dark had to do with thoughts. You are correct and forgive me if I gave the wrong impression. All the best!
Beautiful Sunyata
Aum Surya Namah 
Tom,
Entering another body/mind ? If that is happening, it happens, but not because we are doing it. If one is speaking and acting Truth the “receptive” one will hear, and if one is “receptive” the Guru could be his neighbor. Also one could be “receptive” for power, lust, darkness etc… but you already know this.
Patanjali
Love to you and all.
Hi jonesboy,
No worries at all.
What you said is correct also and probably helped taking some confusion away about what I meant by using the dual terms.
Words can be tricky to describe what we mean when talking about these subjects.
Omsat
Hi Charliedog,
I would say that if a person has the ability to enter another’s body.
They are doing it with intent. Intent I hope to help ease pain, to help quite a mind, to introduce others to deeper levels of silence.
You are right that one has to be receptive. One has to be open at the heart level and to the person to feel such a thing.
Let’s get past the rock can be a guru. We are talking a total different level here.
I know it is not for everyone. Not saying go out and find one. Everyone’s path will lead them where they need to be.
Since the topic is about Ishta’s. I would encourage you to reach out and pull the ishta into your heart. See if you notice a change. If you don’t now. Keep trying. As you progress I am sure you will
Hi So-Hi,
I would say yes and no.
Yes, absolutely it is the individual that has to let go. There should be no doubt what so ever that a guru can help speed that along. Is that not what Krishna, Jesus and Lahri were? Guru’s helping others… They help to provide the energy and the space/silence for the person to let things go.
I would also say that it is not description-less. It has been described many times.
Here is one that really helped me.
Self Liberation through Seeing with Naked Awareness
By Padmasambhava
It helps to distinguish between what we call Liberation itself on the one hand, and the pathways towards liberation on the other. So-Hi was only talking about Liberation in the quote, hence there were no claims being made on the relevance/effectiveness of gurus/Ishtas. The description-less point means that the description is not the experience itself. Just as a description of milk, could give a glimpse of a taste for it, but not give the taste itself as drinking the milk would. Jonesboy, I think the point you are trying to get across on this thread is that certain Beings/gurus have learnt ways to contribute to the spiritual growth of life in wonderful ways. And that given this, it could be interesting to interact with such Beings. That's an interesting point, and I would say not surprising. It is normal that the higher consciousness entity can affect life in more ways. Just as in the event a human being would witness how an insect is drowning; the person could "play God" in this instance by saving the insect if it wanted to. Is this the message you wanted to convey here? Would you like to share your experience with this?
Charliedog
Om Surya Namah