& so very true about talking about these issues they are the hardest to talk about but for me … the most hip opening 
So this is nice eh?
was in bed last night talking to hubby
& i thought about these posts made & looked at him
& said ya know i really like you
smiling
aumm
EMC,
I did not mean to say that bliss is not part of the journey. It is! It is a part of the journey too, just like everything else. But the moment we set up goals, goals like bliss, love, light, unity, harmony or whatever it may be we are limiting ourselves making sure that we end up in what our mind has created, nothing else.
In imagining a goal like bliss for ourselves we will miss that which is not possible to imagine. Then we will not be able to make the leap into the unknown. Bliss will be there anyway, but only as a bonus.
It is the same thing with sex. If we quantify sex into levels where each step represents a level of development where higher chakra sex is better than lower chakra sex, then we have done the same thing. We have created goals that we want to achieve.
I believe that the gap you are experiencing right now is a sign that you are about to see sex for what it is, energy. Just another manifestation of energy. But the old concepts of what sex should be (including the “Osho model” with levels) are stopping you from taking the step into seeing this. Maybe you do not want to reduce making love down to just another blend of energy in this earth dimension. If you do not you are left hanging in between where the old way of having sex has lost it’s magic but still, you cannot rest in the knowing that it is just energy. It may be beautiful, an expression of love, but still, just energy. (I believe Katrine described sex becoming awareness in some post,which was a more beautiful way of expressing something similar to what I want to say)
If I offend you with this text I am sorry, I understand from your post that you have a hard time right now. But I write this hoping that some of these words may help you in the long run even thought you may not like them in this moment.
EMC, you also asked me of my experience. I had no sex for like six months now, I do not miss it which may be because I am getting old. Or it may be because nowadays I am in fact more able to choose in which form my energy is manifested, which is not often in a sexual form. Yes, “sexual uninterest” would be an appropriate description of my state.
Thanks Emc for reactivating this thread with your openess and honesty, it has lead to some really useful information being shared, for me and I sure for many.
Christi, I like the way you describe the heart centred lovemaking, which can be experienced by simply holding or being close. I find I have more of an urge to do this now than having physical sex.
It leads me to a question, which maybe is for another thread, about making love with someone like this, who is not your partner.
Maybe I’m a prude 
but I find it difficult to get over the idea that sex with someone outside of marriage has negitive karmic consequences and is damaging on a soul level.
Lovemaking at a heart level seems different. The question is of course, why does it seem different to me. If one is ok, then why not the other.?
Is there more to this gap than meets the eye.
Meena said: [quote]
HOly thank you guys for these posts!! this is helpful to me
been with my husband for 12 years now and although very high energy just not interested in sex much and am also unfomfortable right now with the thought of getting pregnant
its not easy for him to deal with or me … act so different now & feel so different
he says i took the purple pill and WOKE up some days thats really hard its like why?
[/quote]
Some years ago my partner and I had not had sex for some time. One evening I got into bed and suddenly a red/pink coloured light filled the room. Not making love was not an option, it just had to happen. During the lovemaking I vividly felt a third beautiful energy presence between us. I knew at that moment there would be conception. Out of this we had our beautiful daughter.
So being engaged in this kind of work can have benefits like this.
As Christi says, we are multi-dimensional beings, and anything can happen.
Katrine, when I first read your post I felt it was a too strong word to use: grief. But it is because I did not connect my sexual numbness state to my emotional process right now. You made me see the link. I process a lot of grief right now. Perhaps it is life’s way to say “There’s a time for everything - now is time for emotional purification, not sex.” That fits very well into the fact that I have a huge heart opening going on. Sorrow lives in the heart and it is pouring out and simultaneously the sexual energy is transformed to love. I want to be on that more attractive higher frequency, as Christi said! Wow. This became very clear suddenly. Of course! I am opening the lid and it’s not dangerous at all! Feelings are rather cool when you let yourself drown in them and get to know them.
Christi
Hm. I reflect a lot about how I functioned sexually before my spiritual awakening in feb -06. I can see now that I actually experienced heart openings with my first real partner. I was often in tears when we made love and we could also just float for hours without orgasms. I most often went into trance during sex and I have experimented quite a lot with sex during my single periods. I have no hesitations to any kind of sex, really, and have mostly had good sex on my own conditions. I don’t think I have so many blockages around sex in general. So it might very well be the case that I made so much work on the second and third chakra level before I woke up spiritually and that is why I could enter heart merging states quite quickly with the man who openened my energy body.
By the way Christi, your way of explaining how the energies work is excellent! 
I say AMEN to all of that! It is exactly the same “model” of how it works that I have! I love your way of writing so clear and straight, so it becomes easy to understand! And your description of solo tantra practices makes me inspired to try some more of that. But I believe I still have to self-pace a lot if I try that too much right now.
Very interesting to get feed-back on the inner lover. So THAT is ecstatic bliss??? Is there a general agreement to that among forumists? Hm… scratching my beard… Cool. I think. I thought that might be scenery to just not care about…
But according to lorf, if I get it right - that is exactly what I should do: regard it as scenery. It is sort of just a bonus that might not stay? Is that so? And by the way, I have never had bliss as a goal, though, the way you describe it, lorf. As I tried to say in my former post, I have only understood that bliss and ecstacy is a “standard ingredient” on the spiritual journey and that it will come when it’s time.
The way I see it it’s not “good or bad”. It is just a natural process that happens. It is a transformation to higher frequencies. I don’t think second chakra sex is bad in any way. It is just so utterly uninteresting to be an animal right now. As Osho said, sex is only the potential, raw somehow. So with all respect for your interpretation, I do believe I see sex for what it is - energy. And I move toward higher frequencies of that energy. And that is not what I would characterize as “JUST energy”. That is sort of IT! It’s life itself.
I am not at all offended! And I do not have such a hard time, really. Basically, everyting is very okey with me. I just wondered what this gap was, and now I think I have gotten some pieces of the puzzle. And lorf, since you also describe a state of “sexual uninterest” - is it possible that your “sexual uninterest” also is an expression of “a lid covering great grief”? Does that ring a bell in you, as it did with me?
Sparkle,
When you get about here in the discussion the question of monogamy-polygamy naturally arises. We are all one -> the higher frequencies you hold, the greater the insights and states of unity. That’s why heart merging begins to feel much more okey to do with anyone. You have left the animal-sex state of separateness (duality) and the boundaries are loosening up toward unity (non-duality). I’d say that on an energy level, there is absolutely nothing wrong in blending love energies with several. The enlightened one’s talk about everyone being their lovers. Some have lived polygamic lives. But… and that’s the big but… The way I have understood it: as long as you have any mud left to purify, conflicts will arise on a relational level if you get intimate with more than one partner. It will create emotions one way or the other. There’s that karmic wheel still working! It is a much “safer” road to stay with one the whole journey. You will continue to be confronted with your mud (the partner being the best guru) and you will be more and more greatful toward your partner whom you have done this fantastic teamwork with - creating this “sacred relationship”! Bernie Prior points to the fact that if you get these strong energies to flow with ONE person you are strong! Managing the energies from two will often be more than you can handle and you will get blasted!
The Osho-guy I talked to had been living polygamic since the seventies and he was pretty high frequent in his energies, but he was STILL working on his jealousy! I guess it can become very easy to flip to another as soon as feelings/mud start to show if you have not committed yourself to one. That way you never need to live through a confrontation properly and purify the blockages. That is the beauty of committment in my opinion. To find a partner who is willing to walk the path by your side and receive the greatest gift of them all: a teamwork with your best guru - what a blessing!
Hi EMC,
This is a off topic… Sorry…
Couple of things that help me during heart openings… (and maybe you know them already…)
First whenever you are hit by a human moment… (I prefer calling them human moments than ego moments… … and in my case, during heart openings, the human moments are blown waaayyy out of proportion… 
) bring that feeling down to your heart… move it away from your head… surprising how easily the heart dissolves it.
Second… and I did learn this the hard way… but most people here already know it… when you have purifications happening… and there is a lot of discomfort in your heart… sit down for a few mins and be with it in silence… dont analyze it or try to manipulate it… soon you will see it rise like a wave and subside. So every time you feel this feeling arising in your heart… stop what you are doing… and just be with it.
I made the mistake of thinking purifications were energy overload symptoms… and tried to ignore them… till I came to a point where I could not focus on my work anymore. So I gave up… kinda surrendered to the feeling… I moved my awareness to this feeling in my heart… and just stayed with it… watched it while it peaked and then it subsided and was gone… this feeling of pain and longing in the heart came back many times over the next couple of days… and every time another wave came up I stayed with it, till it faded away …
By the end of it… I had a (comparatively) easy and most beautiful heart opening.
Katrine’s post Silence is a language kinda talks about the same thing… inner silence and surrender to a natural process…
Wish you a beautiful and easy heart opening.
I agree Katrine… thank you for sharing this
OK,
Reading your posts now I finally pinpointed a gap of another kind that I have felt between myself and this list. Most of you regard “high frequency” as the primary thing to strive for.
I do not.
I honor you for helping me get this clear.
Thank you,
lorf
Hi Lorf,
Thanks for your honesty. I was just wondering… are you saying that in your spiritual practice you do not “strive” for anything, but simply remain equanamous (and desireless?), or, do you have a sense that there are things that you strive for, but higher vibrational states is not one of them. If it is the latter, then what are the things that you strive for?
Christi
Emc said: [quote]
When you get about here in the discussion the question of monogamy-polygamy naturally arises. We are all one -> the higher frequencies you hold, the greater the insights and states of unity. That’s why heart merging begins to feel much more okey to do with anyone. You have left the animal-sex state of separateness (duality) and the boundaries are loosening up toward unity (non-duality). I’d say that on an energy level, there is absolutely nothing wrong in blending love energies with several. The enlightened one’s talk about everyone being their lovers. Some have lived polygamic lives. But… and that’s the big but… The way I have understood it: as long as you have any mud left to purify, conflicts will arise on a relational level if you get intimate with more than one partner. It will create emotions one way or the other. There’s that karmic wheel still working! It is a much “safer” road to stay with one the whole journey. You will continue to be confronted with your mud (the partner being the best guru) and you will be more and more greatful toward your partner whom you have done this fantastic teamwork with - creating this “sacred relationship”! Bernie Prior points to the fact that if you get these strong energies to flow with ONE person you are strong! Managing the energies from two will often be more than you can handle and you will get blasted!
The Osho-guy I talked to had been living polygamic since the seventies and he was pretty high frequent in his energies, but he was STILL working on his jealousy! I guess it can become very easy to flip to another as soon as feelings/mud start to show if you have not committed yourself to one. That way you never need to live through a confrontation properly and purify the blockages. That is the beauty of committment in my opinion. To find a partner who is willing to walk the path by your side and receive the greatest gift of them all: a teamwork with your best guru - what a blessing!
[/quote]
I get the message, but I find this message hard to take from people who either have a relationship where things are working out, or from people who have never been in such a relationship.
And “hard to take” doesn’t mean it won’t be taken 
Nevermind it is off topic anyway.
lorf said: [quote]
OK,
Reading your posts now I finally pinpointed a gap of another kind that I have felt between myself and this list. Most of you regard “high frequency” as the primary thing to strive for.
I do not.
I honor you for helping me get this clear.
Thank you,
[/quote]I agree with you entirely lorf. To me the ultimate relationship must be for two people to be connecting on all levels (call them chakras if you wish) similtaneously, lower and higher. This ultimately will result in heart centred love.
Having said that lorf, my current experiencing of where this love can be centred is above the navel. This came about recently for me when my experiences with darkness and light sort of merged into a pink core centred above the navel. It doesn’t seem to have the same potency as heart centred love, but has it’s own peace.
I wonder if this is what Nandhi refers to in his post in this thread
[quote]
this is a yogic secret of the guru chakra- located above the navel that is not found in books. experience it.
[/quote]I wonder also if this is the Core Star Barbara Brennan refers to.
Hi EMC,
Sorry if I confused you with my language. When I wrote “this is it…” I really meant, this is the door, the opening. Love is not bliss or ecstasy. When bliss comes it is obvious and clear because it feels like… bliss, our whole consciousness is expanding into it and it is unmistakeable. When ecstasy comes it is also obvious because it feels like… ecstasy, it can come at first in small rushes and can gradually expand until it feels like every cell in our body is vibrating with ecstasy. What I find less clear is when we can say that these two aspects of our being culminate in love as they merge together. But at some point the merging is unmistakeable, and there is definately an over-powering new feeling, which is love.
But love can come first also. Yogani mentions this in the main lessons somewhere (I can’t find it right now). He says that Bhakti can cause the heart chakra to open early on, producing love. This love is felt inside us and does not have any cause. We are simply madly in love, and as you so beautifully put it, it is like being in love with our secret lover inside.
When my heart first opened it also happened before I had experienced ecstasy or bliss. I found it incredibly intense and overpowering and had little idea what was going on. I was falling in love with people almost continuously . It happened long before I came to AYP, so I had no reference points to guide me as to what was happening.
So as I say… this is one of the doorways to ecstasy and bliss. It is not the only doorway, it is just one. If we let the love grow and expand, and we surrender into it more and more, it will bring the mind to bliss automatically. This love gradually purifies the subtle nervous system until the pranic flow becomes continuously ecstatic.
But this is another advanced practice, and it is easy to overdo, so prudent self pacing (as always) applies.
There are different schools in Yoga, and in mystical traditions in general, and different schools take a different position on this. Some schools regard everything with a kind of equanamous dispassion. Everything that arises on the path is seen as scenery, something not to get attached to and simply to remain aware of. Other schools teach the aspirant to deliberately cultivate divine desires, to yearn for the divine. So they would say “celebrate, become drunk on love, become intoxicated with bliss, merge with the ocean…”. We also see words like: “yerning… longing… dance… love…” coming up frequently from these traditions.
Osho’s works are full of descriptions of this form of Yoga. Rumi is one of it’s most famous advocates from the Sufi tradition. You can probably tell from the way I write, that I also take this approach in my practice. In Yoga, the two main schools which practice this are Bhakti Yoga and Tantra Yoga. Bhakti is the cultivation of desire towards that which is divine, and Tantra is the acceptance of, and transformation of all aspects of our being into divine qualities. So Osho did not teach about turning the whole of life into a celebration because he was a Buddhist, but rather because he was a Bhakta (practitioner of devotional yoga) and a Tantrica (practitioner of tantric yoga).
This is what Yogani says about Bhakti in the main lessons (lesson 67):
So in AYP desire does play a part, and a very important part. The question is desire for what? Desire to be overflowing with love? Desire to be in a permanent state of conscious bliss (Satchitananda)? I guess for me, that depends on what our highest ideal is (our Ishta Devata), and what the attributes (qualities) of that highest ideal are.
Is love scenery along the way, or something to celebrate, to become drunk with, to drown in? Only you can decide . And the issue of how to relate to these qualities, does not end with love… it goes on with ecsatcy, bliss, euphoria, and into the states of absorption beyond the mind…
Christi
Hi Louis,
I am glad you experience this too… it is very beautiful when it happens isn’t it.
Great question, and one that has popped up in my own mind often, over the past six years since I first started experiencing heart connections. Actually this is the part of this discussion which I am most interested in, because of it’s potential ramifications on human evolution. The reason that this issue is not a simple one, is because of the distance aspect. EMC mentions this in her first post in this thread, that heart openings can be felt at a distance, even between strangers standing on a bus. Personally I have experienced this happening often. If I am in a cafe, or with a group of friends, and someone else has an awkened kundalini and an open heart centre, I will feel it. I will feel their heart opening and my heart opening and the energy of love building up in both our energy systems. I also feel connections taking place between higher energy centres, if someone has an active ajna chakra for example, or an active crown chakra. These centres produce more sublime qualities when the energies in two open systems (people) begin to merge. I have experienced this effect happening over a distance of up to 6 feet quite often with friends, and over a distance of about 30 feet with an enlightened lady in south India.
The more I expand (due to my daily AYP practices), the more I feel these connections happening with other people around me naturally. And as EMC points out, the energetics can be very powerful, reducing us to tears of love, or causing us to expand into expanded blissful states. When this happens, I usually know which person, or people, are also experiencing the merging of the energies at the same time, and a beautiful connection happens.
So, (back to your question) what do we do if we are married or in a long term sexual relationship with someone? If we hug someone who isn’t our partner, knowing that it will create strong energies of love in both of us, (because we can feel that the chakras are open), are we betraying the trust of our partner/ spouse? If it happens anyway just by standing next to someone on the tube, then is there really a great deal of difference? Many of my friends now have an awakened kundalini and an open heart chakra (and opened ajna and crown chakras in some cases). So these energies (of love and bliss) flow often between us, whether I am embracing another person or not. If I thought I was betraying my partner everytime it happened I would just develop a massive guilt complex.
But I also agree with EMC. If we start developing very intimate and loving relationships with several people at once, then it creates all sort of problems, especially (or mainly) jelousy. I think this will continue to be the case until we have raised our consciousness to the level where we no longer experience these more base emotions (jelousy, suffering, remorse, separation, guilt). Then we, as a race, will be free to be completely intimate and loving with anyone at any time. But that future state of human consciousness is still a little way off, so in the meantime I feel we have to recognise each others’ limitations and be careful about being too intimate with people outside of our marriage/ partnership.
I don’t think that this aspect of expanded heart connections is off topic at all… it must be very relevant for a lot of people who are experiencing it.
Christi
Ah, yes! It is those small rushes of having every cell stand up and scream I have experienced! Why is that not talked more about? It was absolutely fantastic to feel not only MY cells, but also HIS cells screaming and meeting, merging in ecstacy! Jeeez… I cry only by the memory! I have only read about it on Marnia Robinsons site www.reuniting.info and noone else here filled in with experiences in the “goddess” thread where I wrote about that…
Report: I got help to balance my chakras yesterday, and I think that a great deal of the energies that have been purifying my heart just sank down to the lower chakras! They suddenly woke up again! This weekend I emptied myself of excess energy by excersise and this morning I did some forced self-stimulation of that neutral kind just to prevent energy overload. After three not-so-very-interesting mechanical orgasms I tried to do tantra exercises (first only with energy, then also with physical stimulation) and guess what: It worked, but only after a while! First one ended up as usual - I flipped into a meditative state totally sexually uninterested, as if my energies flee the lower chakras and are comfy higher up. I just decided not to stay there. I took another round and then it worked better - I had a strong body orgasm with lots of crown activity and right after my sweet, sweet lover came to visit. Now, that is still my view most often: IT comes and visits. But then after kissing me so soft it said:
“Get to know thyself”.
And instantly I knew that I am it and it is me! And I cried floods.
I just want to crawl in humbleness. (Googled for the right spelling and found: “Humbleness is to know the value of oneself, to avoid pride, or disregarding the truth.” [:O])
Christi
YES! I was guided to pick out a book of Ram Dass in my bookshelf and opened a page about Karma yoga, that I think fits here. He talks about the process of detaching from the karmic wheel, seeing that there’s nothing to expect from the outcome of actions, and seeing that you are actually not the “doer”. A quality that comes into our actions when we’re not attached to the outcome and not busy being the actors is a sense of equanitmity, for example. And he talks about what to do while we are still switching from higher insights like that and ego desires:
I also connect this issue with the parallell “merging”-thread here in forum. Yogani says our ability to find sound boundaries for our energies increase with the transformation process. I guess we all will have phases where we slide around like Bambi on ice, merging hither and thither in pure astonishment until we get that ability to keep our energetic boundaries. I believe meanwhile it is good to keep in mind that we are still impure, no matter how “pure” those heart openings seem at the moment! If we notice we start to feel attracted to someone else than our partner whom we often have intense spontaneous heart openings with, honesty about it must be the best. Take it for what it is, be open about it with all parties involved and not go further with the desires that might awake. If someone is NOT honest about it, it will directly show. Impure actions (even thoughts) will raise emotionality in the others. There’s no escape from that. Barry Long is talking about this:
A little story from years ago.
Over a number of years I was disgusted with my father because I discovered he had been having affairs. It just seems to hit home more deeply because it was my own father betraying my mother.
Shortly after my father died, I was in a sailing club, which was his main haunt, and could feel his presence around me.
Anyway, I found myself very attracted to a woman and it was a very base chakra connection. I could actually feel that my father was directing things.
When I went home I couldn’t stop thinking about this woman in a sexual way. I tried everything I knew to transform it but was been driven crazy by it, could not get her out of my head.
So one day I made the decision to surrender to it and betray my marriage partner. 
When I made this decision I sat down and meditated. Immediately on the inbreath the energy forged up into my heart and it was the most beautiful heart opening ever.
This immediately dispelled all notions of having an affair, it simply expanded love into everything my mind thought of. It also obviously hugely strengthen the love connection with my wife.
I was very grateful to my father, I felt he had thought me this lesson. It also removed the disgust I felt for his affairs because I had experienced and surrendered to the hugh sexual impulse, presumably in the same way he had. Understanding brings compassion.
I have gotten into a few sticky situations with heart centred love.
I think the boundry issues around it are about becoming attached or not. If one can stay detached by observing and not getting overwhelmed by it - staying in the witness - then for me there is nothing wrong and everything right about it.
It’s when we go too far into it and become immersed or start merging with the other that things can get difficult, in my opinion.
Emc said [quote]
Ah, yes! It is those small rushes of having every cell stand up and scream I have experienced! Why is that not talked more about?
[/quote]I have experienced this a few times. It was when I started meditation first, after meditation I would get into bed and be onset by incredible fears of being possessed. I would start praying to Our Lady and Jesus and it would transform into this fullbody every cell, from tip of toe to top of head orgasm.
After a while it went away and I tried to reproduce it and it worked a few times, but never since. That’s my experience of it - maybe it will happen again sometime, here’s hoping 
Hi Louis,
Thanks for that great post.
What a beautiful experience. This must happen for everyone… maybe not the powerful heart opening part, but certainly the experience of being powerfully sexually attracted at times to someone who is not our wife/ husband. And it raises the issue of to what extend making a commitment to be sexually faithful to one person, actually causes repression, because we are not acting out powerful feelings that we have for other people. In terms of chakras, I feel that emotional repression and holding happens in the manipura (solar plexus) chakra. I even feel it as a kind of tightening up in that area, even on a physical level. So when you made the decision to betray your wife, that could have released the blockage in your 3rd chakra, allowing the intense sexual energy to rise to the heart level and be transformed into a feeling of intense love. We can’t deny that long term monogamous relationships can lead to repression on many levels… after all, look at how many people have affairs.
Controversial stuff 
.
Thanks for sharing that. I wanted to ask you about your experiences with heart centered love, and if it has created any problems for you. I agree with you entirely. If attachment does not arise, then the energies remain beautiful and clear. Difficulties arise when attachment is there, in either partner. For most of us, I feel that it is difficult to experience and remain in unconditional love. If we feel love, then we immediately look for the cause of that love, and believe that that is what is making us feel such strong emotions. So we could believe that the cause is a beautiful flower, or a sunset, or a starlit sky, but most often we think it is another human being. And this is where the attachment comes in… If we experience very powerful waves of love and feel ourselves opening and expanding into that love whilst we are embracing another human, then the natural tendency is to believe that the love we feel is being caused by that person. And then we might feel that our love is dependent on them, (caused by them) and so we must keep them all for ourselves… to secure the continual flow of love.
This is why I feel it is dangerous territory, because love can so easily lead to attachment… at least at the present time. But I have also experienced some very open people who are able to feel, and share very strong and powerful connections of pure love with others without any feelings of attachment arising. They seem to know that the source of their love is somewhere deep within themselves, and flows out to everyone around them. So they have no concepts like attachment, jealousy, betrayal, loss. It is almost like those feelings would seem absurd, or meaningless. So maybe times are changing, and we are entering a new, and more enlightened age, where people are free to openly express and share love with each other on a pure heart level.
You say that if we can stay in the witness and not become attached, then there is nothing wrong about it and everything right. I think you are right… this is the key. But in reference to heart centered love making it has to be the case for both partners. When you say you have had some problems, was it when you experienced attachment arising in yourself or in the other person? Or was it just with fear that arose through experiences of merging? I hope you don’t mind me asking such personal questions.
Christi
Hi EMC
Fantastic! What a beautiful description of how solo tantric practice can work to activate the energy body to divine levels. You women and your multiple orgasms… you are lucky creatures! Us men only get one stab at the cookie, and if we mess up… no second chances (until the next day anyway).
Whilst we are on the subject… multiple orgasms is apparently not the only big advantage that women have over men when it comes to the spiritual path. I have been reading Tolles’ new book recently, and in it he says that women naturally have a less dense ego than men. So it is easier for them to get enlightened ! 
I have suspected this for a long time, but I would never dare to say it in case I was accused of sexism. So it was great to see that Tolle thinks it is the case too. Lots of reasons to celebrate… for the ladies anyway .
Thanks for that link… I found this page on it:
http://www.apa.org/monitor/feb07/lovesnot.html
Apparently what we are discussing here is at the cutting edge of psychological research. The research discussed on that page took a psychologist 10 years and was published in February this year. The “surprising discovery” that came out of ten years of research … Love is not sex! It makes you want to cry doesn’t it?
Can be fun… sliding around like Bambi on ice? As long as no-one gets hurt. But I definitely agree with you, honesty is the most important thing… it’s the crucial ingredient in all of this. When we get to levels of heart centered lovemaking then we can also feel what other people are feeling automatically. So if anyone is being dishonest, we will know it instantly, as we will feel it in our bodies. And as we become more open and loving, we also become more transparent… so other people can feel our energies more easily. So if we are dishonest (with anyone) they will also feel it spontaneously in their heart. That’s how I experience it anyway, in myself and in others. Any slight movement of dishonesty causes us to contract and come out of the love state, and any act of honesty and openness causes us to expand more fully into the love state.
Christi
Hm, hey now… Isn’t that where men land also with tantric practices? Multiple body orgasms are as possible for men as for women when they learn to separate ejaculation from orgasm… That is what I have encountered with some men and what Mantak Chia is teaching in his books about tao-sex.
I agree on Tolle’s claim that women are less prone to have stubborn egos. Barry Long expresses it as “woman knows love better than men”. We are, due to our manifested energy, closer to love, while men are closer to truth! Woman is therefore here to teach man about love. And man must stay in truth. Shiva-shakti.
I start to wonder if sexual arousal (2nd and 3rd chakra based) occurs due to blockages - emotional wounds - in those areas. Emotional wounds are results of karma. To me it is SOOO obvious that the strongest sexual attraction occurs with men who trigger my wounds. As long as I have my blockages I will be more interested in having sex with men who are “no-good-for-me” so that I will meet them and get a mirror to show me what I have to heal. Is this true? In that case, will I get less and less sexually attracted overall the less blockages I have (and be more interested in heart chakra encounters)? Or will I get more and more sexually attracted overall to all persons, wanting to make love to everyone (second chakra, normal sex sort of)? Or both or completely different? According to Osho it would be the first one.
I’m on a yahoo-list for kundalini-sex, and several persons report extreme constant sexual arousal when the kundalini gets going. They live it out and have lots and lots of sex. I interpret it like they have so many blockages higher up in the channel that the energy must pour out via the second chakra. If they don’t clean the channel with any other spiritual excercises so that the energy can start moving upwards they will have an overload flooding the second chakra. Is that a weird interpretation? Comments?
Sparkle, what a nice story! Very glad you shared it with us.
Shanti, thanks for you beautiful post! You also mentioned what Sparkle did, the importance of surrendering to the feeling:
Thank you for that both of you! I have already adopted the method and find it most interesting! When I felt a strong longing and remembered the gooshy pink cotton soft feeling of being in heart tantra with a man, I let myself go into that longing instead of banging my head for being so weak and dreaming about the past. Then the gooshy pink feeling came from inside and I could hug myself in that feeling!
Gosh, guys! I think I have passed a threshold! My inner lover is much more accessible now!
Thanks for the great posts.
Christi [quote]
What a beautiful experience. This must happen for everyone… maybe not the powerful heart opening part, but certainly the experience of being powerfully sexually attracted at times to someone who is not our wife/ husband. And it raises the issue of to what extend making a commitment to be sexually faithful to one person, actually causes repression, because we are not acting out powerful feelings that we have for other people. In terms of chakras, I feel that emotional repression and holding happens in the manipura (solar plexus) chakra. I even feel it as a kind of tightening up in that area, even on a physical level. So when you made the decision to betray your wife, that could have released the blockage in your 3rd chakra, allowing the intense sexual energy to rise to the heart level and be transformed into a feeling of intense love. We can’t deny that long term monogamous relationships can lead to repression on many levels… after all, look at how many people have affairs.
Controversial stuff .
[/quote]
I think we should be able to hold our boundaries without repressing our feelings. Isn’t this the work of awareness, purification and self inquiry.
After relating that story to a Jesuit friend he asked me what advice I would give to the various priests he counsels with sexual problems 
.
If I knew then what I know now, I would be saying - well have you ever heard of a chap called Yogani. He has developed a very complete and comprehensive system of meditation which includes genuine tantra, it slowly and safely purifies the system so that sexual arousal will naturally transform to love.
For somebody celibate, they will at least know that they are practicing a system which is actively working on the “problem” without supressing it, this knowledge alone would be a great comfort.
(now that you’ve tweeked this memory I will see if I can get in touch with this chap and pass on the info )
[quote]
Thanks for sharing that. I wanted to ask you about your experiences with heart centered love, and if it has created any problems for you. I agree with you entirely. If attachment does not arise, then the energies remain beautiful and clear. Difficulties arise when attachment is there, in either partner. For most of us, I feel that it is difficult to experience and remain in unconditional love. If we feel love, then we immediately look for the cause of that love, and believe that that is what is making us feel such strong emotions. So we could believe that the cause is a beautiful flower, or a sunset, or a starlit sky, but most often we think it is another human being. And this is where the attachment comes in… If we experience very powerful waves of love and feel ourselves opening and expanding into that love whilst we are embracing another human, then the natural tendency is to believe that the love we feel is being caused by that person. And then we might feel that our love is dependent on them, (caused by them) and so we must keep them all for ourselves… to secure the continual flow of love.
[/quote]Yes I agree with all of this and I think the experience of heart love with another person is fulfilling a deep need in us caused by separation, which I would experience as lonliness. We can, as you say, attach ourselves to this person and “fall in love with them”, been there, and think they are offering the thing I have been missing for so long.
For me, understanding the mechanisms of what is going on, so that we have some sort of map, is very helpful. When we have this understanding it is much easier to stay in the witness and observe it and wonder at its beauty, whilst still engaging with it. With this information it puts us in a much stronger position to hold our boundries.
But, to say we should avoid such encounters because we know it will never be pure and without ego or the “human” element, would, in my view, more likely lead to repression and a missed opportunity to open one’s heart.
As has been said so many times on this forum - the key to all of this is the regular practice of, in our case AYP practices. This is the foundation we can build with and from which these understandings can unlock into real life happenings.
Personally I don’t have the “high voltage” energy currents that yourself, Emc and many other’s on the forum have. So it may be more difficult for me to get a handle on what is going on. It is very valuable for me to hear about such experiences and having read so much here over the past year, it is becoming familiar to me and I am realising that I am learning the same lessons but with less high voltage energy.
EMC said [quote]
I start to wonder if sexual arousal (2nd and 3rd chakra based) occurs due to blockages - emotional wounds - in those areas. Emotional wounds are results of karma. To me it is SOOO obvious that the strongest sexual attraction occurs with men who trigger my wounds.
[/quote]This is very interesting emc, and would corrospond with the fact that say, abuse victims seem to gravitate to abusers.
My finding over the years are that I can have a strong heart connection with someone, with little or no sexual flavour, and the other person can be experiencing it in a very sexual way.
In my first big encounter with this I was actively helping someone (on request)by tuning into their heart with mine (not recommended). After three days of maybe half an hour a day there was an explosion in my heart and a powerful connection.
A few days later I saw her and she nearly attacked me with anger asking what I was doing to her. It transpired she was experiencing it very sexually, and she knew it was me.
With some discussion, we decided to continue the healing experiment. It went on for months and we both had wonderful experiences. The boundries were held, on a physical level. There was some merging - I experienced for the first time what it was like to be so ungrounded that I was walking around as if six inches off the ground. (The person in question had left her body because of early abuse and was just learning to stay in it).
It was all quite an extrodinary learning for me. After some time I was visited by her on what was probably an astral level, where she made love to me. This jerked me into the realisation that this was in fact what she had been experiencing with me - it wasn’t just telepathy - it was actual visitation by my energy body to hers. This was happening unknown to me - it all came form working with the heart. This is something I did intuitively and is not someting I recommend, in fact I avoid actively connecting my heart with another for this reason. If it happens spontaneously that another matter, but the boundries have to be examined and if they are not strong with both people then its time to pull back imo.
I can assure you my lower chakras need a lot of work and needed so much more in those days. The way I see it she was receiving the healing she required, both of us were.
I think staying monogamous with heart love would be repressive and insular - for me anyway. It can be very powerful and can upset one’s life balance, throwing everything askew.
This is the wonderful thing about self-pacing isn’t it. Little and often and pull back if it gets too much.
But maybe I’m just a slug compared to you guys at this. With your
highly charged energy bodies the boundries will be more difficult to keep.
Hi everyone,
I just wanted to say I am very much enjoying this discussion on tantra with everyone involved.
Hi EMC,
Yes, it’s a stage on the path for men. But orgasm without ejaculation and being able to experience multiple orgasms does not seem to be the way we are naturally designed, unlike women, who all seem to be able to do these things. Men (usually) have to do a lot of tantric practice first to reach that stage. Some men do have a fast recovery time between one orgasm and the next, but it’s not the same thing as kind of riding the waves of ecstasy from one orgasm to the next as women do. At least not until we can orgasm without ejaculation. But I feel this is a stage on the path (tantric wise), and quite an early stage, not the end of the path.
You are so diplomatic EMC ! I am glad us lesser mortals also have our natural attributes, and our important role to play in the divine dance.
I know that many people don’t like the idea, but I would tend to agree with Osho here. Yogani also seems to imply the same thing, that as we progress on the path, sexuality is transformed into something beyond sex. As he says it is the transformation from the erotic state into the ecstatic state. Katrine also seems to have said something similar in another thread. I am still somewhere on the way myself, but I definitely feel a natural inclination towards love, and the higher emotions, and away from sex. I am not saying there is anything wrong with sex, I am just saying that I feel a natural inclination to more refined energetic states. And this inclination increases the more I practice yoga. But I feel like it is a very beautiful transition, and a choice that I am making. I don’t feel any sense of loss.
Fantastic.
Hi Louis,
Absolutely. What I was saying in reference to sexual commitments (monogamous relationships), and repression of feelings, would only apply to the extent that we enter into such relationships with unawareness. If we were totally aware when we enter such a relationship, then there would be no repression. We could (I guess) still feel sexual attraction towards another person (other than our wife/ partner) but would see it clearly for what it is. There would be no desire to act on that feeling (because of the clarity of our awareness), and no subsequent feeling of repression caused by that desire being unfulfilled. But personally I have never entered a monogamous relationship from such a level of clear awareness, so I have always had to deal with emotions and feelings as they have come up. But you are right, working with awareness, purification and self-enquiry definitely help a lot.
Those Irish girls eh? It doesn’t matter how many times you say no to them, they always find a way.
But seriously, thanks for sharing your experience. Actually it reminded me of something. Earlier in this thread I mentioned that it was six years ago that I first felt someone else’s heart centre in their body (whilst standing on the street talking with them). But actually the first time I felt another beings heart centre was twelve years ago on the astral plane. It was the heart centre of an angel (the one’s made of golden light that look a bit like humans, only golden, and made of light 
) It connected it’s heart with mine, not as a form of lovemaking, but as a form of communication. It simply wanted to communicate love, like “It’s all right, I’m a divine being centered in love”. As soon as the communication had been felt, it ended the connection. Actually, it was more like a communion than a communication, and it completely amazed me.
What we are discussing must be a new area of experience for many people, and I can feel that there is some confusion amongst some of us (myself included) as to what is appropriate and not appropriate in terms of forming heart connections deliberately with other people, especially outside of marriage. We all seem to be saying at the same time that this is something that is a natural part of our evolution, and is beautiful and should not be denied or repressed, but also that it can be dangerous (for ourselves and others) and that very clear boundaries need to be held. Have I got this right?
You (Louis) also seem to be saying: don’t use it as a form of healing, especially not to try and help ground someone who is recovering from an OBE. I would definitely agree with you there. This kind of thing could actually cause an out of body experience, and it is far from being a grounding practice… it is more like a “spread your wings and fly” practice.
Christi