Thanks so much for the reply. In terms of arriving at this state where the “nectar cycle” creates a continuous sort of orgasm that also relieves the felt need to to release energy through ejaculation, I guess simply purifying the nadis through pranayama, DM, etc. is the most important factor, though obviously some degree of brahmacharya is needed to purify for those to be maximally effective (e.g., once a week or fortnight)? That is, it would not necessarily speed up that process very much to attempt longer periods of brahmacharya in a way that is uncomfortable (e.g., one month or more, in my case, would be a fairly big challenge and would probably require abstaining from all sexual stimulation, solo or with my wife)? That is, this state can be achieved through regular practice with only moderate periods of brahmacharya (e.g., one orgasm/fortnight), with length of brahmacharya maintenance being a contributing factor but less important than time spent in SBP, DM, etc.?
As for what causes the big drop-off in energy associated with genital orgasm, I guess it must be primarily a neurological phenomenon triggered by going past the “point of no return,” but with the actual ejaculation of the semen through the lingam during orgasm contributing to it somewhat somehow, given that orgasmic feelings per se do not lead to loss of energy, nor does movement of semen per se (if part of natural vajroli rather than genital orgasm) lead to loss of energy, yet for some reason stopping the movement of semen through the lingam during orgasm reduces the energy loss somewhat?
There are many different factors that affect this process and the degree to which they make a difference will depend to some extent on the individual. Men in their twenties tend to have a lot of sexual energy and may be able to get away with two orgasms a week, without it affecting the process too much. But that may not be the case for every man in their twenties. Some may be very sensitive to loss of semen through ejaculation and need to spend a lot of time in recovery mode afterwards. So, it is not possible to make statements such as “one orgasm a week will be fine for everyone”. For some people that may be too much. Once a fortnight may be too much, and once a month may be better.
But we can look at the general factors that contribute to whole-body ecstasy and to the production of amrita and then everyone can work out which aspects are more important, or less important for them.
There needs to be the cultivation of inner silence.
There needs to be some degree of the preservation of sexual fluids and sexual energy.
The system of chakras and nadis need to reach a sufficient level of purification.
Kundalini needs to be awakened.
The upward flow of kundalini needs to become strong enough to cause natural vajroli to become active.
Sufficient purification needs to have taken place in the higher centres for the transformation of sexual energy in the manipura chakra into amrita in the head to occur.
So, most of the process is actually about inner purification, with the sexual aspect of it being on the periphery. Someone who is completely celibate can experience this whole process of transformation, so the only thing actually required from a sexual aspect is that not too much sexual energy, or sexual fluids are lost, too often.
And yes, there is something about the act of ejaculation with the release of semen through the lingam that is especially draining of spiritual energy. Natural vajroli involves the movement of physical sexual fluids in the body, and sexual energy, but is not at all draining except in very rare circumstances.
I think one thing this highlights for me is the extent to which purifying the higher centers (e.g., third eye/ajna chakra) may be just as, if not more important for achieving “natural vajroli” as any attempt to directly purify the lower centers through e.g., mulabandha, nauli, etc. because the “upward pull” aspect is important to creating the situation in which the energy becomes more evenly distributed through the body and, presumably does not feel so much like it needs to come out through genital orgasm. That is, because it is all connected, the ecstasy felt during e.g., yoni mudra kumbhaka is just as, if not more important to achieving the circulation of sexual energy as e.g., tantric sex or mulabandha.
Yes. Purifying the whole body in a balanced way is the key. The higher centres are as important as the lower centres. That is why we start out with meditation using a mantra that purifies between the root and Third Eye. And then add Spinal Breathing Pranayama which also purifies the same channel. The purification happens in a balanced way. As the ecstasy moves up the body to the heart, the ajna chakra and the crown, physical ejaculation becomes much less interesting, as what is happening in the higher centres, and also throughout the body, is far more pleasurable.
And yes, the nectar cycle requires the higher centres to be purified for the whole cycle to happen, including the production of amrita at the crown, ajna and bindu chakras.
Sorry if I seem to keep asking the same question in slightly different ways, but I am wondering whether Tristan and/or others who have reached this level where the natural vajroli became frequent enough/automatic enough as to alleviate the buildup of tension in the genital area could describe how that progression occurred for them?
In my case, right now, I think I may be developing some level of natural vajroli because, while it is not happening automatically, the “trigger” for causing orgasmic sensations to begin has become more sensitive, such that e.g., exhaling and placing the attention on the perineum and/or performing mulabandha during an asana can cause it, and nudging the eyeballs toward the third eye with the fingers while the brow is furrowed can cause it also, albeit in that case it feels less sexual because focused more in the head.
Such activities, especially if focused in the root area, seem sometimes to cause a little semen to appear in the urine, though not every time. I had had this phenomenon for a long time if I engaged in manual stimulation of the lingam without orgasm, but the tendency for it to occur even without direct stimulation is fairly new.
This relatively new phenomenon seems like it may help alleviate the felt need for genital orgasm to a degree, though certainly not entirely. Right now it tends to reach an uncomfortable level around two weeks, which is the level I’ve been at for quite some time, though I’m hoping maybe this new phenomenon will make longer periods of retention possible an comfortable.
At this point it is not so much about desire for the pleasure of a genital orgasm, as the pleasure of these “third eye orgasms” and such are as great, or greater, and can last much longer. It is more about a mildly uncomfortable feeling of fullness in the genital area, along with a slightly awkward tendency to frequent erections, and a bit of a feeling of being on edge or not sleeping soundly. Having a genital orgasm (generally blocked) relieves these, though predictably that always results in some temporary drop of spiritual energy, so presumably the goal is to push out this time, insofar as it can be done comfortably.
Related, as I mentioned, this definitely affects sleep for me. When I have recently had an orgasm, I tend to sleep heavily. Sometimes uncomfortably so (especially if not blocking, which tends to an uncomfortable level of feeling drained), though generally I sleep more easily and soundly if I have had an orgasm not too long ago. As the time increases, the quality of sleep shifts to be lighter, and the amount of sleep needed to feel rested decreases (a good thing). The number of dreams may increase or decrease as the time increases, but the sense of not fully losing consciousness increases, perhaps also leading toward the witnessing of sleep reported to happen.
Sometimes the sense of sexual tension can be enough to keep me awake, at which point I’ll usually have a blocked orgasm and which can lead to fatigue during the day otherwise, but when it has not reached that level, I generally feel okay during the day–it is more just like less sleep is needed and there is a sense of not fully losing consciousness.
Anyway, the above is not meant so much as a question as a description of where I am in terms of trying to achieve the production of amrita, a greater comfort with longer periods of brahmacharya, etc. and I would be interested to hear any other experiences about how it may have progressed for others. E.g., did it just very gradually get easier to retain as the orgasmic feelings from yoga practices became more and more common, causing a more even circulation of ecstatic energies throughout the body and less tendency for tension to build up in the genital area? Or did developing the conscious ability to release seminal fluids at the root without genital orgasm make it easier because that release, per se, reduced the tension but without the loss of energy? Was the evolution of brahmacharya directly connected with changes in experience of sleep? I assume the experience of sleep tends toward balance as the energies tend toward balance, but maybe the general trend is toward lighter, more “conscious” sleep and less total need for sleep? Thanks!
I think the important thing to consider is that it is a very gradual process that unfolds over years, and which has many inter-related aspects. It is not always as simple as saying: “This aspect of spiritual development, caused this to happen”. But, gradually there is a shift that happens away from biological sex, in terms of sexual activity and sexual pleasure, towards something that may barely resemble biological sex at all. As the process unfolds, there is a movement away from orgasm being focussed on the pelvis, towards orgasm being a whole-body experience, or even centred on the heart, or ajna chakra, or the crown. We may not even call it orgasm by that stage, but simply ecstatic-bliss and divine love. And, as you have noticed, there is a shift away from orgasm being something that is physically induced, towards orgasm happening simply because of a lifting of the eyes, or a raising of the consciousness, or happening without any cause at all, simply being a continuous process taking place in the body. And there is a gradual reduction in the build-up of sexual tension over time, along with any need for occasional release. But, this has as much to do with the shift away from biological sex, towards ecstatic-bliss centred in the higher chakras, as it has to do with the production of amrita in the body. It is all tied-in together.
As for sleep, it is quite normal for yogis to need less sleep. So, sleeping for less hours each night is not necessarily a problem. It would only be a problem if we are tired the next day, and are finding it difficult to do things. But, if we feel fine the next day, then sleeping less is not an issue. Quite often people will still lie down with their eyes closed for the same number of hours that they usually do, but simply be asleep for less of them. So, someone may lie down for eight hours each night, but only be asleep for four hours, or two hours. The body will go into sleep-mode for the other hours, where it is going through the normal processes that happen during sleep, except that we are still awake. If someone walked into the room, we would know they were there.
It is also possible for yogis to spend less time lying down at night than other people do. So, a yogi may only lie down for four hours at night and sleep for two of those, or sleep for none of those, but simply remain conscious and be fine the next day. So, there are various things that can happen with sleep. The key thing is the question of how do we feel the next day? If we do not feel fine, then we need to take steps to make sure we are sleeping more, such as self-pacing our practices downwards and spending more time grounding.
I think what I am gradually understanding, thanks to your replies and my continued practice, is that the “relief” from sexual tension natural vajroli provides is largely, if not entirely “neurological,” as opposed to “mechanical.” That is, when I first read Yogani describing a state of “continuous release of semen at the root” etc. I think I mistakenly assumed that it was the release of fluids, sucked up into the bladder, that would eventually make long periods of brahmacharya comfortable.
This was probably because of a subjective but largely mistaken impression I, and probably many men have, which is that the feeling of sexual tension is somehow related to a physiological need to release the sperm, prostate fluid, etc. the body creates. But as you’ve pointed out before, the body can reabsorb these things.
For anyone else reading who may doubt this, imagine you have reached the upper limits of the period of time you can normally comfortably go between orgasms but then you catch a nasty flu–suddenly your very strong sex drive can evaporate because your body shifts gears to fighting the virus; similarly, for anyone who has done a long water fast, as I have, can tell you, there is very little, if any sex drive when fasting, and this could similarly be begun after an apparent build up of sexual tension. In other words, the perceived need to have an orgasm is almost entirely a neurological phenomenon (with neurons also being influenced by hormones, etc.), not an inherent aspect of the male sexual anatomy (though it may be that periodic release serves some function that may be relevant when trying to have children, such as clearing out old sperm).
What actually seems to happen, then, as I understand it so far, is that, as the various blockages/traumas/karmas, etc. get cleared out of the nervous system of the whole body, those parts of the nervous system become “ecstatically conductive” in a way that, for most people, only the areas around the genitals and only during periods of sexual stimulation are “ecstatically conductive.” These draw on the sexual energy preserved by brahmacharya but do not drain the energy the way genital orgasm does and also do not depend on erogenous stimulus. Rather they can be frequent, perhaps eventually continuous, and brought on through yogic maneuvers, such as shambhavi, and eventually perhaps occurring continuously and automatically with little or no prompting.
This ecstatic energy being more evenly and continuously distributed, I imagine (and have maybe experienced to a degree), the perception of it “building up” in and “needing to be released” from the genital region ameliorates and perhaps eventually goes away entirely, such that maybe orgasm is never really felt to be needed unless trying to have children or, perhaps, enhance the sexual enjoyment of a partner on occasion.
Edit to add: one other thing I have understood from Tristan’s posts and videos and think I am starting to understand a bit better now: the level of ecstatic conductivity in the body and inner silence in the mind paradoxically have some overlap with both the (intense) state of orgasm and the (relaxed) state of sleep. Tristan mentioned in a video that sometimes meditation can become more challenging when we begin to experience periods of samadhi or no thoughts because the body mistakes this for being asleep and tends to get sleepy or literally fall asleep. Over time, we learn to meditate and even conduct daily activities with a high level of background silence of the mind, somewhat similar to being asleep (I believe Ramana Maharshi (?) said sleeping and waking become the same in enlightenment?). At the same time, the intense pleasure of ecstatic conductivity supports inner silence because one is “enraptured” so to speak in the pleasure rather than experiencing a lot of inner chatter. This high level of energetic function in the body carries over into sleep such that, whereas our waking state may become almost as mentally quiet as sleep, the amount of sleep needed may be less (perhaps in part because we are more relaxed/mentally quiet during the day) and the quality of sleep is lighter/more conscious.
Do you mean feeling the chakras? If so, then yes, though it’s not like the ability to feel them goes away if you have an orgasm. It’s more like the long-term practice of brahmacharya, in combination with other practices, such as pranayama and mantra meditation, allows one to begin sensing the chakras.
Yes, when I stay in retention for long periods of time. I can reach a conciseness for lack of a better term when practicing edging. What that is I am not totally sure. When I do cum. It takes a while before I can get back to that state. It is like loose any sense of time. Something holds me back from going deeper into that state. Maybe fear, maybe a lack of skill in this process. I would like be able stay focused but after let’s say 6-12 rounds of edging my thoughts start to come back