Paradox of desire

05. Satsang Cafe - General Discussions on AYP
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I’ve been thinking a lot lately about the apparent paradox of a practice with a directionality towards ecstatic bliss which cautions against getting caught up in the “scenery”. This is reinforced by many Eastern spiritual traditions which warn against clinging to energetic states, including bliss. As a Westerner I find it exceedingly difficult to not live life without conscious choices made to shape a positive direction in our lives. Bhakti, as I understand it in the AYP tradition, serves as an internal motivation towards an ideal.

Tantra is a practice which brings focus to energetic states engaging in a complex dance bringing deep attention to profound energetic states. Our very neurobiology is programed to favor pleasurable states and to avoid unpleasant states.

It seems the core teaching of many Eastern practices can be summarized as accepting the present moment as it is. This defies our very neurobiological programming.

I’m curious how you have addressed this paradox on your journey.

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Hi Interpaul,

Chop wood, carry water, with a blissful inner smile added. Why not? :smiling_face:

The guru is in you.

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And this:

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Hi Interpaul,

The question you ask is very similar to one that came up on the last residential AYP retreat in England.

Basically someone has to want something in order to take up spiritual practices in the first place. They have to want more peace, or more joy, or more love, or a better understanding of the divine and so on, in order to take up a spiritual practice in the first place. So, some degree of desire has to be there. And the object of this desire can then change as their practice develops.

It is actually a good thing if this desire increases over time becoming all consuming at some stage. It may not become all consuming for everyone but it is a good thing if it does.

At the same time we need to be cultivating non-attachment to the fruits of our practice whilst simultaneously cultivating a strong desire for those fruits. This is one of the divine paradoxes of the path of yoga.

Gradually, over the years, our desire, or ideal, will tend towards liberation, unity and divine love. This happens as a natural result of the purification of the subtle nervous system.

However, we cannot spend our entire spiritual life longing for something we do not have. So, in order to complete the journey, we have to let go of all spiritual desire by becoming our Ishta. We have to eventually become peace, and joy, and freedom and unconditional love. Then we no longer need to yearn for it because we are it. The practices of self inquiry help with this process. The affirmations of “I am joy”, “I am love”, “I am peace”, “I am freedom” etc. will naturally lead us towards this state. Even the self inquiry practices involving negation lead us to this state by systematically removing everything that we are not.

The timing of this is important. If someone lets go of desire for their highest ideal too soon, then they can fall backwards on the path, or even fall off the path all together. If they hold on for too long then they will remain in separation for longer than necessary. Some of the dualistic schools of yoga recommend remaining in a state of separation indefinitely. So, the object of our desire always remains “other” and separate from who we are. By doing this they avoid the pitfall of ending desire for our Ishta too soon and falling off the path. Then, when someone is ready, they will come to know themselves as That which is beyond all conditioned existence anyway, without any deliberate attempt to bring that realisation about. However non-dualistic schools of yoga use practices to deliberately help bring that realisation about. They trust (or hope) that people will not attempt to take on these practices too soon. For the most part it works. :slightly_smiling_face:

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I believe Ramakrishna said something along the lines of ‘if the ego cannot be destroyed, at least let it be a servant of God’.

It is perfectly natural for any being to chase pleasure (whether wholesome or no). If the pleasures sought are the fruits of our spiritual practices, all the better; but what’s even better is to remember to step outside the chase via self inquiry - simply be aware that our ego is doing its natural business.

It’s easy for us to judge ourselves for seeking wordly pleasures but we can also judge ourselves for seeking - or just wanting - spritual pleasures. In either case, the best course of action (if it can be so called) is simply to become witness to the process.

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Here is an illustration made with human and AI help. I wanted to illustrate that the most useful bhakti and beliefs are very individual and will change along the path.

donkey_carrot
donkey_carrot1536×1024 272 KB

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Hi Interpaul,
I tried for a long time to have the energy flowing freely, and it happened one day just by following the AYP practices, after that it became really easy to generate extatic bliss. So much in fact that I deliberatly generated it just by doing simple things like subtle mudras and bandhas troughout the day just to feel the goosebumps and pleasure it gave me. It was kind of an addiction to pleasure and not an indication of progress, once I understood that I tried to minimise triggering the pleasure just for the sake of it, it was not a loss, because extatic bliss started to happen naturally not triggered by me but by events and conditions occuring around me. It became more naturel and not disturbing at all as long as I just acknowledgedt it and let it run it’s course without trying to stay with it. So that got out of the way, but then occured another slight disturbance.
What happened for a couple of years is that after my pranayama practice energy continued during deep meditation and samyama, at first it was fun to have extatic bliss during my practices but I learned trought AYP that it was a pursuit of sensual desire and that it was not conductice to enlightement. That is recent. So now after a bit of experimentation, I started to do DM and samyama with an effort to not have any excessive energy occuring during my practices. What I am trying to do is to be really aware of not doing any mudras and bandhas during my practices, and it works so far. energy still happens but I do my best to ignore it and when energy do happen I monitor myself for any small or bold bodily contractions which could be the cause of the disturbing energy, most of the time I find it and correct the situation. Sometimes energy hapens naturally and I just let go.
I do have a concern, It’s that without extatic bliss I have a feeling that something is missing, is there actually a need for extatic bliss during my practices, inner silence is more silent but I wonder if what I am doing is right, am I on the right path, did I understand the practices correctly.
Anyway, this is new to me and we will see how it goes, perhaps a bit of clarification and encouragement is needed here…
:pray:

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Hi Alain,

It sounds like plenty of good things are happening! Ecstasy is a symptom of inner purification taking place in the subtle nervous system. It is caused by friction in the nadis as inner obstructions are being released.

When it comes to ecstasy being present during meditation there is a subtle balance that has to be maintained. It is important to cultivate ecstatic bliss during meditation, where ecstasy and bliss are both present at the same time. When this happens they will merge, producing the experience of unity and divine love. And we need to do this repeatedly, many times, until the experience of unity becomes permanent.

The subtlety is that if too much ecstasy is present during meditation it can be disturbing and can disturb the cultivation of bliss. If there is too much ecstasy present, making it difficult to return to the mantra when we are off it, then it is wise to make changes to our practices to reduce the ecstasy, such as leaving out the mudras and bandhas for example, as you mentioned. We can also reduce the timing of Spinal Breathing Pranayama as well if necessary, and reduce asana practice time if the asanas are producing too much ecstasy in the body.

With a bit of practice it is not difficult to fine tune things so that we can be in ecstatic bliss during meditation but not be disturbed by the ecstasy. That is when the magic happens.

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Thanks Tristan! This is really what I needed to hear, for a while the results of pranayama have been following me into DM and Samyama and I wasn’t sure if that was right!! So I will fine tune my practice to keep the amount of energy just right and not go overboard, just staying into the condition of ecstatic bliss without disturbing the repetition of the mantra.

Thanks a lot
:pray:

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Yogani, Thank you for weighing in on this topic. I sense your answer comes from a different place, a place beyond grasping. I do sense more and more the ecstatic blissful currents flowing behind the scenes. I’m always on the look out for getting caught up in attachments which could derail my journey.

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Hi Interpaul
I did not :grin:
I just followed the desire…and the desire was not really clear …i did not really know what it was about nor what will be outcome…the desire/ urge was so strong that it cant be ignored
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Desire and the ego are good …you need those tools in the begining then you drop them…
Consistency also is very important
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Desire is not the only paradox hehe
So many others paradoxes are present !!!
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The ego is searching then you question if there is an ego hehe
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The desire leads…then the desire kind of dies hehe
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You are on the path to find meaning…then the answer is we dont know hehe
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One might think it is all spiritually fantastic stuff then you just keep chopping wood and carrying water
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One might think one is so important because he is on a spiritual path ( drum roll) then there is no path and you are super super ordinary…to the degree of boredom …just chop chop chop hehe
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In the beginning a vegetarian diet is beneficial then you get older and you might need animal protein for your health
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In the beginning you need to practice more…then after some serious overload episodes, you practice less and less

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I am adding all of my replies in one message after the website suggested individual replies are not ideal.

Tristan, Thanks for weighing in on this. I am coming to accept words just can’t capture most of this phase of self inquiry. It is helpful having a supportive sangha to validate the journey at times.

George,

This is helpful. Slowly but surely I am learning to abandon the egoic mind in favor of witnessing.

Tensor, A very provocative image, thanks for sharing. This feels like a version of DM with the carrot being the mantra.

Alain, I hear you. I certainly reached a place where ecstatic currents met bliss in DM. I haven’t found this to be a bad thing in my case, more of a gift. I guess it just depends on how intense the ecstatic energy is. My struggles have come at times from tantric practices which have the capacity to build ecstatic energy seemingly in an unlimited capacity. Without an apparent end point I am faced with my egoic attachment to the ever rising state. Without negative experiences self pacing requires a deeper awareness of motivations/boundaries

Maha, I love the “hehe” after all your comments. I picture the happy Buddha amused by the students as they ascend the mountain only to realize there is no mountain.

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Hi Interpaul,

I don’t particularly recommend trying to shut off desires. Desires can be redirected into useful pursuits, for example, looking beyond ecstatic pleasure seeking. That is the science of bhakti. A desire for ecstasy can be expanded to desire for divine fulfillment. It will happen for you. The little Prayers and Poems book published last year was about that. It was about struggles I was having at the time, much as you are struggling with the rise of powerful ecstatic experiences now.

The lesson referred to above (258) is about someone fed up with the addiction to ecstasy and wanting more, wondering if there is more. Yes, there is, and we just have to keep going and live through it. It happens in stages as we continue along our path. It will all be there. As Rumi said, “Keep walking, though there is no place to get to.” And from the Bible, “Seek first the kingdom of heaven…” No one said there would not be sirens along the way. Just keep walking…

Your inquiry about this is your bhakti in action, wondering why the paradox? And by inference, “What comes next?” Something does come next. Maybe a gradual fading of desire for ecstatic experiences, and more desire for moving on, bringing your bliss more into daily activities with less personal fascination, and more about doing for others. It is an evolution, and you are clearly on the path. Many have gone through it, and hopefully many more will in this and future generations.

The guru is in you.

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Yogani, As always I appreciate your encouragement. Your teachings have served as valuable guideposts on this journey and I continue to be grateful for your active engagement in the community and your hopeful message.

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Interpaul, we have gone in depth on this topic for years, so no new advice here, just the observation that we touch home every time in samhadi, there should be no limit to our desire to know this experience, it is nourishing us from the inside out. All we need to do is watch in real time, be there now. Nothing else is required, thoughts, judgements, fears, distractions rise up and dissolve once you witness and return to the mantra. Pleasure is the byproduct of witnessing deep silence.

Another divine paradox: on the outside the body is still, on the inside it is anything but.

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