Cool! Where do I sign up?!
But seriously, that’s an interesting statue. Now I’ll have to do some reading and look into this a bit.
Dear Meg,
Please read again my second answer to you in this thread. Yes what goes on is political difference but you might want to seriously consider my following advice. Most tibetan schools use protectors which in a way is shamanic approach (ally). Depending on how far you want to bring to surface your inconscious blockages, you will need very powerful protectors to not blow your channels. It happens the political struggle between Gelugpa and NKT has activated very powerful protectors which are in a mortal struggle. So either you follow NKT or you follow Gelupga (like FPMT under now Lama Zopa leadership continuing the work of Lama Thubten Yeshe) but never follow both otherwise you’ll be in big trouble !
You see, this is the big difference between classical Hindu yoga practices not requiring protectors and tibetan systems or shamanic systems outside a tibetan context.
In Shakti, Albert
Hi Albert - At this point my involvement with NKT isn’t likely to go beyond attending the odd lecture. I like to be open-minded, but there’s too much controversy for me to feel comfortable with it. But I’ve become interested in the intrigue, and particularly in the aura surrounding Dorje Shugden (great photo, VIL!) In the pantheon of Tibetan wrathful deities, why would the Dalai Lama single him out as evil, and then replace him with this gal: http://www.thangka.ru/gallery/ge_lhamo_b.html
The ‘protector’ part I’m not familiar with, but in the Hindu system there are scads of wrathful deities, such as Bhairava, that aspect of Shiva who cuts through egoic delusion. What ARE these beings? Symbols of latent powers in the unconscious? Energies to assist us in spiritual transformation? Actual gods and goddesses, like Zeus and Athena? Whatever they are, their wrath is directed at our tendency toward delusion, and thus are considered our allies in every respect. That’s why I find it so interesting that the Dalai Lama has singled out Dorje Shugden as “evil”. If this is true, how did he sneak into the Tibetan line-up of dieties? Why would the genuine deities allow an imposter into their midst? And why the enigma surrounding him?
I’m sure that my interest has gone beyond what’s appropriate for the AYP forums, so I won’t continue to post on the subject. But I REALLY appreciate all the input that I’ve gotten here - thanks everyone! 
I think it is an interesting question, Meg. You have uncovered something in your search that wants to find some kind of an answer. I wonder if it might be easy enough to ask someone intimate with the Dalai Lama’s work? Please keep us updated if you pursue this.
Well, the question has been answered before in my posts or by the New York NKT director: political reasons not spiritual reasons.
Look at this way: both lineages (NKT or Gelugpa which corresponds to a split of an initial lineage) agree in their practice the need of a protector. As a said before, other tibetan sects (Nyingma, Sakya, Kagyu, Bonpo, Rime,…) all use a protector but this protector might be different. So your question should rather be: do I need a protector in my spiritual practice then if yes, which one I feel connected.
Sorry to be so direct but i’m trying to help you through my personal experiences and acquaintances.
Albert
Direct works for me. But my question isn’t “Do I need a protector in my spiritual practice.” That’s never been my question. My original question was “Anyone know anything about the NKT?” and I got a lot more response than I expected - incredibly helpful. Now I’m just curious about the central figure of Dorje Shugden, and why he was banned by the Dalai Lama as a Protector. Clearly it was for political reasons, but I want to know more about it, and the book you recommended will probably give me the answers I need. Thanks again for your directness and your help in this issue, Albert.
Uma doesn’t like 'em, either, I bet…
LOL!
Hi Meg,
Protector practice holds a very important place in Tibetan Buddhism, so the point is relevant. I was closely involved with the NKT for many years and even before I had a clue about the whole issue, I felt uncomfortable with protector practices.
Whilst criticism of the NKT is, in the main, accurate most other Tibetan Buddhists are throwing stones whilst in the same greenhouse. They also emphasize unswerving guru yoga, worship of various deities, elaborate rituals and so on. In other words much of the criticism can be equally applied to Tibetan Buddhism as a whole. If that sort of thing floats your boat then go for it.
I feel that anyone wishing to investigate Buddhism should also check out the Pali suttas and teachings of the Theravadan school, in order to find out what the man, himself, taught (I didn’t and paid a high price for my ignorance). Read around so that the NKT, or Tibetan perspective is not the only one you get. Perhaps you have already done this and are well informed, in which case please take my point as a general statement.
If you ever attend an NKT center you may be amazed at how little the adherents know about any other tradition. If you have an eclectic philosophy you will be expected to leave it at the door. That said, the NKT does deliver standard teachings in the tradition of Tsongkarpa so Geshe Kelsang does follow his tradition faithfully and where it not for the nasty spat with the Dali Lama he would doubtlessly be counted as a great asset.
namaste
kris
Hi Meg, I came across your thread from a google news search on the New Kadampa Tradition which I do just to see what’s going on “out there”.
So far it seems all the replies have been from people from various spiritual traditions/backgrounds. I live in Florida, and originally came into contact with the NKT about 4 years ago when I was living in Australia. I know the teacher in NYC, and have heard him teach. Kadam Morten is a truly gifted and funny individual, you are very fortunate.
All these problems that have been coming up from your post and others’ replies are not new, but I just wanted to give you my thoughts on the topic.
Yes it is true that people in our tradition don’t encourage lots of different teachings/traditions in the same way you wouldn’t mix different types of tea. If you have a nice blend or a pure blend you’d want to stick with that. I’ve been doing this for 4 years, and I’ve never heard that it is forbidden to study other traditions from anyone who has been teaching or involved for a while - meaning that I have heard that from people who don’t really know what’s going on, but not from teachers, although they probably won’t encourage it either. There is nothing wrong with being a catholic and a Buddhist at the same time (from the Buddhist perspective).
I love the teachings, and my wife and I make it when we can, but it’s been waaaaaaay less these days as we have a 5-month old kid now than when we were living in Oz. I’m 29 years old, so my practice of meditating everyday or trying to attend 1 or 2 teachings a week isn’t the case anymore. Now-a-days I am mostly trying to put the advice into practice in dealing with our baby, my colleagues at work, etc. So your spiritual practice will be different for everybody depending on what you enjoy or want to take on.
It sounds like you are conflicted about the FP course, and I think that’s a good thing. What a commitment does is require people to take a look and see how serious they are about studying, meditating and hearing teachings on Buddhist themes. The people who you find in them are committed to wanting to learn more because they have already experienced some type of benefit (otherwise they wouldn’t be there or would have dropped out already). My recommendation would be to not worry about it, keep on going to the general classes and not stress about it. It’ll still be there if you do decide it’s for you. But I’d still go and sit in on one of the classes just to see.
The people I know in the NKT from all over the world are intelligent, independent, and sincere practitioners. People think for themselves, and most of them have drawn their own conclusions about the classes and teachings. No one is forcing anything.
It sounds like you’ve spoken with Morten already, but if not tell him what your thinking about or what you’ve been reading on these posts and ask for his advice. There are some valid points on this forum, and Buddha himself said to never accept anything just because he said it or he thinks its true, only accept it if its true for you.
I wish you the best and keep on questioning and in the end I hope you find what you are looking for. Remember there are no contradictions between outside practices and following these teachings.
Wishing Love, Ianca
In my limited understanding, I think the deal is that a protector is an ex-demon who has been converted to the dharma. Maybe the conversion didn’t take completely or something. Or maybe it’s just the Dalai Lama playing politics.
I know that there are passionate and vigorous differences between the schools and add politics to the mix and things can get rather volatile. The Karmapa debate is another example.
Hi Yoda,
I guess we’ll never know for sure but I can’t help thinking that the whole controversy casts an ill light upon the system. Devotees are genuinely terrified of the powers of these beings. It’s a level of fear and superstition that we have not seen in Europe since the days of witch hunting. I have personally witnessed a deity enter a Lama and it is an event which shook me to the core - I’ll never forget it.
I’ve raised the issue with Tibetan Buddhists, who claim that all things are ultimately “empty” or the nature of “Buddha Mind”. They deny that there is any actual duality attached to worship of such beings but the nature of this controversy demonstrates that the main players consider it to be literally a matter of life or death. They don’t casually dismiss it in such a way. It’s serious.
Anyone getting into Tibetan Buddhism should be 100% aware of this. If you can hack it, then all well and good.
Hi Meg
This topic is a month old, found it by coincidence (I guess), I hope you didn’t join them because NKT is a CULT! I suggest you stay far away, even from just attending lectures, because for some, that’s how it starts…
The 5th Dalai Lama tried to destroy Dolgyal, but didn’t succeed, others also warned against him. Don’t believe anything the members of NKT tell you, they have a history of online “recruitment” and debate tactics. They’re also as sectarian as it gets.
“The so-called Drakpa Gyaltsen pretends to be a sublime being, even though he is not, And since this interfering spirit and creature of distorted prayers Is harming everything - both the dharma and sentient beings - Do not support, protect or give him shelter, but grind him to dust.” - the 5th Dalai Lama
If you want to know more, I suggest reading these lengthy topics from E-Sangha. You have to be registered to read though.
http://www.lioncity.net/buddhism/index.php?showtopic=34974
http://www.lioncity.net/buddhism/index.php?showtopic=45610
(edited links)
Pero - Thanks for the links. I registered and will read them to see what they have to say. I stopped going to NKT after this AYP discussion, but have been going to a weekly meditation (NKT based), mostly because it’s a 5 minute walk from my apartment, and because I like the teacher. But maybe you’re right - maybe ANY contact with them is a bad idea. I’ll read the articles and decide. Great website, btw - thanks for that link (lioncity.net).
Well I’m not sure, maybe you wouldn’t have any problems that way, but I personally wouldn’t tempt “misfortune”.
You could also ask on E-Sangha if there are any other centers near you that you might like.
Oh I never introduced myself here haha. There’s not much to say really, I’m from TaoBums (and E-Sangha). :lol
[quote=“Pero”]
Well I’m not sure, maybe you wouldn’t have any problems that way, but I personally wouldn’t tempt “misfortune”.
You could also ask on E-Sangha if there are any other centers near you that you might like.
Oh I never introduced myself here haha. There’s not much to say really, I’m from TaoBums (and E-Sangha). :lol
[/quote]Welcome!
Thanks.
I hope this is not to late to find you guys…
please check out the new website:
www.NewKadampaTruth.org
to see how the tradition has been at the receiving end of smears and ostracism over the last 12 years, and please don’t be so quick to believe everything you read on the Internet. One of the most reputable anti-defamation law firms in the world said, after weighing the evidence: “It is clear to us that the NKT is a reputable international organization that has experienced a great deal of defamation to undermine its reputation.”
Another good website if you want both sides of the story: www.WisdomBuddhaDorjeShugden.org
Thanks for the links, Peljor. I’ll def. check them out. To the best of my ability I’ve kept an open mind throughout my reading on the NKT, as I haven’t an ax to grind in either direction. The people I’ve encountered have been wonderful without exception, and open to discussing their alleged ‘cult’ status (to some degree; I’m sure they see me as a pain in the ass). I did make the decision to stop going, though. I’m no lawyer, but the evidence didn’t seem to be in their favor; or, at least it left enough of a question in my mind that I couldn’t stay without sorting out their influences. It’s their history that casts a shadow, you know. And it seems to come down to the choice of believing Kelsang Gyatso or believing the Dalai Lama. This unfortunately demonizes Gyatso, and many assume that he’s evil, which I think is nonsense. He appears to be an amazing & gifted teacher, but the fact that he conflicts with the DL on some issues hasn’t worked in his favor.
So thanks for your imput - I’ll check it out. But for the most part I’m back to where I started, which is reading Yogani’s lessons. His Enlightenment Series is an amazing set of teachings, and without the questionable past, or the opposition to any other spiritual teachings.
Welcome to the forum, btw.
Hi Y’all,
Thanks for bringing this topic up. I’ve been attending classes from the NKT for few years now and feel like they have given me great benefit in my daily life. From what I can tell this is real Dharma. I’ve never been forbidden to read other books (I do) and no one has tried to control me or dictate how I live my life. So it’s always amazing to me to read these forums which call the NKT a cult (whatever that means). I’ve met some really amazing practitioners there.
Recently the teacher at the NKT center in Seattle talked about the controversy with the protector and the Dalai Lama. I was amazed at his directness and openness. I investigated further and found a lot of things said about the NKT that just aren’t true from my own experience. After a few years you think you’d notice something wouldn’t you? Anyway, I have concluded that it’s mainly a political thing with the Dalai Lama. I saw a YouTube video that even showed the Dalai Lama admitting to the audience that he engaged in this practice for many years - something like 20 years. Seems strange to suddenly decide it’s an “evil” practice. I’m sad to find out some other things about the Dalia Lama. As I find out more things seems like he’s trying to give a final push to combine all Tibetan traditions under his rule. Only some gelugpa Geshe’s are holding out. I heard recently that two new monastaries are opening up in India to allow Dorje Shugden practitioners to practice freely. The practice was banned by the Dalai Lama and if gelugpa monks didn’t abandon the practice they were expelled from their monastaries. Anyway, sounds like things are really coming out. I’m following the issue very closely. From my own experience I can see that politics and Dharma don’t mix.
Thanks
Twinks
I attend weekly classes at a NKT Centre here in the UK. I agree that the Dharma teachings are so profoundly simple and practical and really do improve my life and my relationships with other people. The principles of patient acceptance and non-attachment are explained in a way that is accessible and easy to understand from a western perspective. The people at the centre are very genuine, spiritual people and seem so far removed from the controversies discussed above.