Hi Meg,
I do hope Byron Katie hasn’t fallen to the dark side, and become seduced by the twin enemies of fame and wealth. It would be a tragic loss for all of us. Maybe we could all say a quiet prayer for her.
Christi
Meg said:
The teachings that I’ve received thus far are crystal clear, and have provided the missing link on my spiritual path: dealing with the Mind.
That may well be so. There are many untold riches in Tibetan Buddhism. Keep in mind though that someone cn be highly gifted in certain respects, while the stories of their deep flaws are still true.
I don’t at all like what I see in this case. Looking for exclusivity is a terrible sign (and yes, some major yogic groups did and do it – it’s still a terrible sign). Can you imagine a friend who insisted that you don’t have any other friends except them? Do you really think they are serving you in those demands for exclusivity?
Absolutely. Some of the most profound and insightful spiritual teachers were some of the most notoriously corrupt. Go figure.
Not sure on that. Before there was an internet, how could you ensure safety, pacing, non-digression, etc, unless you insist that someone follow The Program? Even Yogani, operating in a different age and in a different media, suggests not adding outside energy practices.
I don’t like this group much at all, but the exclusivity isn’t a problem for me, fwiw. Unless it’s a “shun your family” type exclusivity. Though the swami vows in india, come to think of it, amount to that…
Jim, insisting that someone follow ‘The Program’ is fine. Insisting that you don’t read any other spiritual teachers is I would say excessive. Which is to say that if ‘The Program’ requires you not to even read any other sources, ‘The Program’ is messed up.
OK, I’ll admit there are some gray areas here, so perhaps I go too far. But I still say I consider it a negative indicator, even if it isn’t entirely conclusive. Generally I consider it more impressive if the teacher doesn’t have to get heavy-handed in that particular way.
Hi David,
I agree with you about the heavy-handedness.
My best teachers would always encourage me to explore for myself, to develop critical thinking and logical reasoning, to ask them questions, and to disagree with them if I found it necessary to do so. And, the worst one’s never encouraged these things, and would become abusive if I didn’t agree with their way of thinking.
If I went to a teacher that told me I could only study their material, and no others, they would cease being my teacher at that very instance.
Kind regards
What do you think about attending lectures given by a sect or branch of Buddhism (or any spiritual tradition) that may have some questionable motives or beliefs? Do you think this is playing too close to the fire? Just curious about your thoughts on this. Is it possible to benefit from the teachings of a group, and to remain untouched by the rift in its underbelly? Or is it the case that in exposing oneself to the teachings of a questionable group, one is involved in toto whether she likes it or not. Fwiw, none of the deities or issues outlined in the article have come up once. Never heard of Dorje Shugen until now, for example…no massive idol of him on the altar.
I’ve made the decision to forfeit the year-long class, but will continue going to the lecture series once a week, and to a new NKT meditation group that’s starting up in my borough. I don’t like the idea of ditching this, as I’ve benefited so much from it. Is it possible, I wonder, to EVER find a teacher/community/spiritual tradition that’s without flaws? Isn’t that like looking for a perfect partner? (Admittedly, murder and treason are hard to sweep under the rug…)
David, you may be speaking generally, but in the lectures I haven’t heard any mention of exclusivity regarding the reading of other books. However, their bookstore carries only Geshe Kelsang Gyatso’s books and tapes, which I think is a negative indicator, as you say.
I agree with this wholeheartedly, and believe that a good indicator of cult-like activity is the insistence of ANYTHING: You MUST believe this, you CANNOT read that, etc. Free will is woven into every spiritual tradition that I know of, so it makes no sense that its teachers would obliterate that.
Hello Meg,
Most tibetan sects (Kagyupa, Sakyapa, Gelugpa, Nyagma, Bon Po, Rime,…) provide skillful means to deal with the real nature of the Mind so it is not only NKT. Hence my suggestion is that you need to find other criterias to select one school.
Albert
Meg said:
What do you think about attending lectures given by a sect or branch of Buddhism (or any spiritual tradition) that may have some questionable motives or beliefs? Do you think this is playing too close to the fire? Just curious about your thoughts on this.
From what I know of you Meg, you have some natural defenses against cultic situations. One of the biggest defenses of all is simply in not finding them attractive, but there are others. I don’t see a huge risk in your actually getting deeply bound up in the bad situation. I think you would pull back.
The problem though is that you would lose something in the process. You may have a relationship with a good teacher, for example, from which you would eventually have to pull away.
Is it possible to benefit from the teachings of a group, and to remain untouched by the rift in its underbelly?
I think it’s possible to survive the underbelly. But it’s better still to be in a situation free from it if you can. Think of it like any other situation you pursue in your life. If you saw a great career opportunity in it, you might put up with a job situation which is partly toxic. But if you could find an opportunity as good, but without the toxicity, that’s better still.
Is it possible, I wonder, to EVER find a teacher/community/spiritual tradition that’s without flaws? Isn’t that like looking for a perfect partner? (Admittedly, murder and treason are hard to sweep under the rug…)
You’ve really answered your own question well, in an implicit way. No, perfection can’t be found, whether that’s in partners, teachers, bosses etc. But how bad is too bad? Where do you draw the line? What can you ignore? Use your instinct as well as your intellect.
David, you may be speaking generally, but in the lectures I haven’t heard any mention of exclusivity regarding the reading of other books. However, their bookstore carries only Geshe Kelsang Gyatso’s books and tapes, which I think is a negative indicator, as you say.
I think I read somewhere that they eventually forbid even the reading of other spiritual teachers. And you have said yourself in the beginning that they prohibit other spiritual practices.
Any recommendations or warnings? Anyone? I’ve been sect-hopping for a while and am getting weary of it. 
I just want to find a nice, quiet little cult and settle in for a while. 
LOLOLOLOL
VIL
Ha! “A little cult of my own to call home”!
But…why the group-seeking? Maybe it’s just me, but AYP has really tilted me to a strongy guru-within perspective, to the point of whatever impulse I previously felt to find likeminded sangha (let alone teacher) has really fallen off. Sure, everyone’s different, but can you put your finger on what it is in your practice that feels lacking and that a community might fill? I don’t ask in an accusatory way, not trying to put you on defensive. I’m just trying to relate (hey, if you’re persuasive enough, maybe we’ll all go join, too!).
I’m not necessarily jonesing for a cult or group. (No pun intended). I prefer solitude, truth be told, but at this time in my life it’s not so good for me. I could explain, but I don’t think the forum would benefit much. Simply put, I need to interact, and the internet is (for me) a mere simulacrum of human connection.
But it’s much bigger than that, and maybe a different discussion altogether. I’m drawn (like a magnet!) to discussions of the Mind. When this teacher speaks, I open up. You know how they say that when the student is ready, the guru appears? That’s how it felt when I first discovered Yogani’s lessons. The clarity with which he wrote about energy and its cultivation made me feel like I was reading something I already knew, even tho I’d never heard it before. A whole world opened up for me effortlessly because of his writings and the timing of my discovering them. That’s how it is with this teacher. When talks about the Mind, it has the same ring of familiarity, and a deep sense that the time is ripe to lose my Mind.
Thanks for asking!
Dear Meg,
I kindly suggest you read this excellent book “Wonders of the Natural Mind” written by Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche who is a Tibetan Bon Po master.
You might also find this work of interest for your quest:
http://vajranatha.com
I don’t know or practice AYP but wonder if the last Yogani’s book “Self Inquiry” does not reach that ultimate level (Dzogchen or Mahamudra), look on the second part of this thread:
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3324
Please note my path lies inside the triangle of shamanism, tantrism and non-duality awareness.
Albert
[quote=“selfonlypath”]
Dear Meg,
I kindly suggest you read this excellent book “Wonders of the Natural Mind” written by Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche who is a Tibetan Bon Po master.
[/quote]I read it, and agree that it’s an excellent book. I’d definitely need a teacher if I chose to go that path.
[quote]
I don’t know or practice AYP but wonder if the last Yogani’s book “Self Inquiry” does not reach that ultimate level (Dzogchen or Mahamudra)
[/quote] I just received that book from Amazon and look forward to reading it. His lessons on Self Inquiry are excellent. I also get a lot out of Adyashanti’s writings on S.I. and nondualism.
[quote]
Please note my path lies inside the triangle of shamanism, tantrism and non-duality awareness.
[/quote]Sounds pretty interesting. What in particular draws you to AYP if you don’t practice it? Just curious.
The answer is there as I suggested to read before:
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3324&whichpage=2
Hi Meg,
A number of years ago I had the opportunity to study with Lama Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche off and on for a couple of years. In my experience, Lama Tenzin is a wonderful person and teacher, one for whom I have the highest respect. The Ligmincha Institute in Virginia under Lama Tenzin’s direction has formally acquired land and built a site where the Bon Po teachings are regularly offered.
More information about the Ligmincha Institute can be found at:
https://www.ligmincha.org/
From their web site: [quote]
With the establishment in 1998 of the Serenity Ridge Retreat Center, Geshe Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche’s longtime vision of a North American home for Bon has been realized. Our residential retreat center is located 30 minutes south of Charlottesville in Nelson County, Va. Its nearly 20 acres rest atop a mountain ridge overlooking the Rockfish River Valley, with beautiful views of the surrounding Blue Ridge Mountains.
In our teaching hall (gompa) we are fortunate to have received teachings from many Bon masters including H.H. Lungtok Tenpai Nyima Rinpoche, H.E. Yongdzin Tenzin Namdak Rinpoche, Geshe Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche, Khenpo Tenpa Yungdrung Rinpoche, Ponlob Trinley Nyima Rinpoche, Chongtul Rinpoche, and Khyimsar Rinpoche.
[/quote]Love and Light,
Steve
Hi meg,
You might want to have a look at the fpmt centres, they have dharma centres all over the world. It was started years ago by Lama Yeshe and Lama Zopa as an attempt to preserve the Tibetan teachings. There are always classes on and I found their Discovering Buddism series invaluable to understand all of the differing schools, how they came to be and what buddism is all about. Took the confusion out of it for me.
http://www.fpmt.org
maybe there is a centre near you,
http://www.fpmt.org/centers/
regards
Darryl
I met with the Educational Director of the NKT (Manhattan Branch), and thought I’d write about it, in case anyone’s interested. I’ll do my best to remember his responses. He seemed to be a very open-minded, easy-going, answer-giving kind of guy, and generous with his time. I liked him. I told him my basic concerns about NKT and Geshe Kelsang Gyatso (GKG), and he said that he doesn’t get asked about the controversy very often, but is acquainted with the rumors. He basically dismissed the articles as political agenda, and said that a lot of misinformation has been spread about NKT. He didn’t know the origin of the rumors, only that they were not true. In his experience at NKT, there has never been an instance when he was forbidden to read other Buddhist texts, and he’s a big fan of Chogyam Trungpa. So up until this point, his responses were pretty uninteresting - a general dismissal of all the hoopla surrounding NKT and GKG.
Then I brought up the subject of the Dalai Lama, and things got interesting. He was a little uncomfortable, and it seemed that he was holding back out of propriety. He said that NKT had nothing against the Dalai Lama, just as they had nothing against the Pope - they simply don’t recognize him as their spiritual leader. He also mentioned that the Dalai Lama is mistakenly regarded as THE spiritual leader of all Buddhists, when in fact he is their political leader, and that’s how the NKT regards him - as a political leader whose primary agenda is freedom for the Tibetans, and for that the NKT gives him all due respect.
Their problem with him is that he - the Dalai Lama - forbids the NKT to worship Dorje Shugden as the protector of their tradition. They feel that this is completely out of line, since they don’t regard him as their spiritual teacher, and because the Dalai Lama also practiced Dorje Shugden worship as a young man, under his teacher Trijang Rinpoche, who was also GKG’s teacher. This was a standard practice in the Gelugpa tradition, but for unknown reasons, the Dalai Lama decided that it was no longer acceptable, banned it as a practice, and that’s when GKG decided to break away from the Dalai Lama and create the NKT.
I find this all to be pretty intriguing…why did the DL suddenly decide to ban the worship of Dorje Shugden? It would seem that this is the pivotal question, since that’s precisely where the rift occurred. Apparently the Dalai Lama replaced Dorje Shugden with another wrathful deity just as bloodthirsty: Palden Lhamo (a female deity).
I’ve tried to report what I remember of the interview - if some of the facts are way out of whack please let me know. I’m going to take another look at the articles posted in this thread, but can anyone tell me why the Dalai Lama is opposed to Dorje Shugen? As far as I can tell, he’s just one of legions of wrathful gods…why pick on him?
Maybe he found this artistic rendition a bit disconcerting:
http://www.dorjeshugden.com/images/ds01.jpg
VIL