Hi Christi,
ha ha 
you have learned my ways well ⌠I keep opting in and out of the discussion but you have politely kept me involved ⌠
Thanks for your patience with my posting and deleting ⌠much appreciated.
A great description from Yogani. It is eloquent and inspirational and most certainly adds clarity to our own discussion.[quote]
It is not clear to me though that what you describe above regarding the heart differs in a fundamental way from the classic bottom-to-top kundalini model. In the model, which I described above, an individual can start wherever they like. They could start (as Gopi Krishna did) by meditating on the crown chakra. The resulting sequence of transformation would be the same (kundalini awakening from bottom to top), although it could be a bumpy ride along the way. An individual could also start by meditating on the sacred Heart (as Sufis do), and bringing the light down from above. I would suggest that the basic process of transformation would still be fundamentally the same, although there could be a stronger sense of love and universal harmony during the journey. There could also be an added element of danger.
In the simplified model that I presented briefly above, I rather left out the heart until the very end. That was really just to save time and space. A more complex examination of the role of the heart in the process of kundalini awakening would show that it does get involved at many stages: beginning, middle and end, as you describe.
[/quote]I think you have said it in the last paragraph. The Heart can get involved at many stages. Moreover, depending on oneâs bhakti, type of practices, etc. âthe depth and completenessâ that one enters into the Heart can also vary and be introduced at earlier stages that does not always directly correlate with the traditional yogic model of the kundalini first rising first up all the chakras and then finally descending back down to the right side of the Heart. It is possible to be more fully in the Heart at earlier stages in the process âwith the atman and the Loveâ taking a more direct role in guiding the follow-on unfoldment of the kundalini and consciousness vs the ego-mind-will. This point is important and fundamental and can have a big impact on the process of re-awakening to who we are. Of course, it is not 100% one way or the other. But to the extent that we truly are in the Heart and letting the Love work the nature and ease of the process can change significantly with the timing sequence of the stages also varying somewhat from a more traditional bottom-to-top model.
Christi, in a very clear well spoken manner, you have laid the groundwork for further discussion. I was attempting to build upon that based on the direct experience of my own condition before and after being introduced to the Inner Heart, having it take a bigger role in directing the unfoldment process while also learning how to let the Love work better without as much interference from my eqo-mind-will-desires. Of course, this is all being said from the current state of my limited understanding.
Love and Light,
Steve
Christi said:
The Guru is kept in line by the fact that they are constantly serving their disciples.
Thatâs like saying that the gurus are kept behaving well by the fact that they are behaving well. 
Almost all of the cases I have heard of, which have involved abuse of power, have happened in the United States of America.
A bigger awareness of the incidence of abuse does not necessarily mean there is less of it. If one were to look naively at world history, one might think that child abuse is a relatively modern phenomenon, with much more of it in recent decades. Much more likely, it is just becoming better known as a problem and hopefully there is even less of it for that. The western world has gotten good, and is getting better, at bring abuses to the fore. Itâs more rights-oriented, and less likely to assume that one who claims to have been victimized by the Pure One is merely malicious. I donât believe that the incidence of abuse in India by gurus is less than in the US â I expect itâs probably higher actually, but it is more likely in that culture that it will be swept under the rug. Like it or not, the police and many courts in India can still be bought for the right fee. There are some utterly egregious cases of major gurus in India who would be in prison long ago if they lived in the US. But I donât want this to be a criticism of India, or even a dismissal of the guru tradition. What Iâm saying is that inflation of the guru is a problem, and produces major risks of failures. It does not guarantee failure, nor are we guaranteed to be free of failure if we eliminate it. Itâs just problemmatic and risky. I say itâs time to leave it behind.
At very advanced levels humans are basically an expression of the same thing, and what they say is fundamentally the same, only the languages they use are different.
Thatâs probably true, but it doesnât work against what I said in any way. Iâm talking about the business of ranking human beings in an order of spiritual development. That is the stuff on which they will differ â if they get into that business at all, and hopefully they wonât.
Actually, Yogani does it all the time. Every time he writes an email to someone, or replies to someoneâs query on the forum, he pitches his reply to suit that person at the level that they are at.
When you say âitâ, youâve switched the âitâ. You wonât find him doing what Iâve talked about. You will find him doing what youâve just called âitâ, as if they are the same thing. But I think weâve talked enough about that. This other stuff is more interesting.
There is an inbuilt hook for narcissism, if the spiritual practitioner thinks that the power that is coming to them is somehow the result of their own endeavours, rather than a result of surrendering to a power that is greater than their own individualism.
Good! You recognize the enormous hook for narcissism.
surrendering to a power that is greater than their own individualism
Aha, here we may have the problem: unfortunately, some act of âsurrenderingâ to a power that is greater than ones own doesnât eliminate the hook for narcissism at all. You can be surrendered to âthe Fatherâ and still be on a narcissistic trip. Narcissistic issues are rooted in the way we perceive ourselves versus others, not in the relationship between us and âthe Fatherâ. It is not difficult for a narcissistic Prince to be surrendered to the King, especially his internal King! In fact, arguably, messianism is by and large âspiritualizedâ narcissism. Iâm sticking to it: believing that one is becoming superman is an enormous hook for narcissism, even if one is successful at being âsurrenderedâ, not to mention the much more likely scenario of not being entirely successful at being surrendered (or of being self-deceiving at how surrendered one is).
I believe the truth doesnât really have any hooks for narcissism at all. To the extent to which the Yoga tradition has this hook, it needs reform because it is departing from the truth â and, yes, people who have learned from it are mistaught. ( Generally, Buddhism doesnât offer that particular hook â or not to the same degree, though with exceptions in some traditions.) Yoga is for purifying you and bringing you to where you should be. It is not for making you superman, and does not make you superman. It does not increase your rank relative to other people either. It hasnât done it for those who have walked the path before us, and wonât do it for us. Neither, BTW, does it make oneâs yogic institution super-institution (with all the problems that go with inflated institutional self-image).
Just a BTW, Iâm not sure where exactly Yogani stands on these superpowers. One of his own lessons on them does suggest not to expect them of him (at least any time soon!). And perhaps his views on them are undecided and evolving, I can only guess. So Iâm not calling him up as support for my point-of-view here. But I do like one of his terms from one of his books: his concept of the âflight of fancyâ, getting in the way on the spiritual path. I would say that anyone on an expectation of becoming superman is on one of the biggest flights of fancy imaginable. And flights of fancy are a major problem: many individuals and institutions fell, and the problem could be traced largely to the fact that they were actually on an enormous âflight of fancyâ from which they would not brook being pulled down. The problem is not confined to yoga as so-named, it occurs in every setting in which the power and grandness of the âenlightenedâ is overblown.
I offer these insights as an aid on the path. The more difficult these realities are to swallow, the more likely they are to be needed.
Hi David,
Call me narcissistic, but I disagree with the last part.
I think it is both. It is the development of all the powers inherent in all human beings (and when this is achieved the person would be considered super human by normal homo sap standards) parallel with completely developed personal ethics, based on impersonal objectivity and not personal subjectivity. I believe this can be achieved. (personally 
).
And I think this is what Yoga is for.
I think the best example of this is the myth of Jesus. He was super human. And he was completely ethical and impersonal according to the story.
Anybody who displays a moral lapse is simply not a completely free human being. They may be more enlightened, but they are not completely free, because if they were, they would have no compulsion to behave unethically based on personal gain of some type. So they have a blind spot and are still bound to the wheel of karma.
And in the real world, this does create rank relative to other people.
It is obvious that there are people who are just plain more capable than others and there is a pecking order wherever you go, based on this fact. That pecking order may be based on whatever yardstick a particular group of people value. It could be ethical capability, expressive capability, get things done capability, fearlessness capability, love capability, self control capability, whatever, and then people rank the individual and they take their place in the group pecking order. It happens here. It happens everywhere.
Tiger Woods and Michael Jordan come to mind as examples of relative ranking by humans. Obviously, they are not ranked by their personality traits here. But they must still display a reasonable degree of ethics or else their ranking will be decreased.
So I think Yoga does make you super human (eventually) and it does increase your rank relative to other people in a real world sense based on a yardstick of actual development of those traits we all inherently possess and value.
Best, yb.
Maybe this is key: That it is other people who do the ranking and not the individual being ranked, just a thought.
Yogibear said:
Call me narcissistic, but I disagree with the last part.
Ok, youâre a narcissistic son of a gun. 
Seriously though, I donât find Iâm disagreeing with you so much. There are a lot of nuances in this matter. If one believes in past lives, then Yoga can be seen as an acceleration of a long-term process of perfection.
I also agree with what you said about varying levels of skill and abilities and the status that comes with that in various groups.
This gets problemmatic in yoga only under certain conditions. Itâs a matter of right perspective â there are various conditions under which inflation sets in. If you think youâre becoming superman in this life, and that yoga is going to do it for you, Iâm sticking with what I said â youâre in serious danger of being on a narcissistic trip. If you see yourself, and everyone else, on the way to being superman in the long term (after many lives) I canât see much risk in that. The narcissistic problems are in the way you see yourself to be different to the people around you, in an imbalanced way. Thatâs also very likely to get in the way of your spiritual progress.
There is narcissism and there is also âinflationâ â merely getting an overblown self-image or self-regard for whatever reason. Narcissism always brings inflation with it but I think you can probably be inflated without being particularly narcissistic (perhaps this could happen if your status was over-confirmed by the people around you, or other circumstances). I know an examples of teachers whom I think were inflated, but I donât see any reason to suspect that they are particularly narcissistic. If a person is inflated, their learning process is messed up, and there is a good chance that they will depart from their domain of competence if they teach.
Iâm also sticking to what I said that yoga didnât make a superman out of the earlier yogis we know of. There are many reasons I believe this. The spiritual traditions are hyperbolic about their teachers, and paint them as supermen, larger than life. Did it make them great? Oh yeah, it made them great! But superman, no â they very much had limits. I believe that they too, if on their way to becoming superman, would only become it eventually on the many-lives model.
The aspects of âspiritual developmentâ in humans are very multi-faceted. (I will use this term here fully acknowledging that the spiritual path obviously can be seen as âun-developmentâ as well.) As I see it, the essence of our being is our consciousness. Spiritual development can be seen in terms of consciousness being able to be aware of and handle more and more foundational and basic aspects of Reality, and being able to release itself from attachment from and identification with the more specialized aspects of ourselves and our immediate environment, including the physical body and the fields of thinking, feeling, sense of ego, etc. that we use for expression in this world. With this process comes awareness of and abilities to handle aspects of Reality, or siddhis, that are outside of what most call ânormalâ, only sometimes labeled âsuper-normalâ because these abilities are still rare and unusual. At some point they may be labeled very normal and usual. I also believe that there is no limit or end to (human) spiritual development.
It is obvious that spiritual development is not the same for any two (human or other) beings. However, because there are so many aspects of it, and because we are dealing with consciousness, which can not be measured objectively by any outer means, I donât think itâs helpful to try to rank or categorize people spiritually. (Iâm not hereby indicating that anybody in this forum has ranked people this way.) Yes, peopleâs outer expressions can be indications of their consciousness or development, sometimes quite revealing, but only in the aspects that are expressed. Another reason itâs not helpful to rank people spiritually is that itâs too tempting to include value judgment on people when doing it, and that is not going to help anybody spiritually. It will only promote the sense of separation between people.
Considering spiritual teachers, or gurus, I believe that such can be of great value for someone on the spiritual path when it comes to providing teaching and inspiration. At the same time, because each oneâs spiritual path is unique, and we all work on specific aspects of our own consciousness, there will never be one particular teacher that is right for everyone all the time. On the other hand, a spiritual teacher will be right for a particular student at a particular time, while that student is working on particular aspects of his/her own spiritual path. I also believe that nobody has reached any ultimate state of consciousness, or spiritual development, guru or not, but that there nevertheless can be a lot of assistance that spiritual teachers can provide for others, again that meets their particular needs. Much can be learned even when gurus have specific âimperfectionsâ, and sometimes gurus may even display these for the purpose of students learning. And, valuable lessons can also be learned by having been subject to âimperfectionsâ in spiritual teachers. On the other hand, of course, damage can also be done by unscrupulous individuals setting themselves up as teachers and deceiving others.
Finally, if we look at experiences, outer manifestations, or âabilitiesâ, when considering peopleâs spiritual development, it may be tempting to place too much value on these manifestations themselves. Yes, for a physical being it could possibly be very very nice to be able to fly at will. Or have supernormal power. But only for someone identifying themselves as a physical being. If consciousness has transcended this identification, there may be other things that are considered far more valuable.
I loved your wisdom, weaver; par excellence:
VIL
ahaha, i found this kinda halarious. I donât see how this point of view is possible when talking of yoga and development relating to enlightenment. Itâs almost like saying: His greatness is measured, by how little he measures hahaha.
I think itâs awesome though, itâs like the paradox of it all. I mean, thereâs no problem with your pt of view, go into it fully, and youâll find just as much enlightenment there as anywhere. 
wait, I just contradicted myself. Oh well. hehe 
Traits we value ehh? hmmm, what if we value no traits. Not no traits, but like⌠no traits.
Great job Weaver. I was asking if someone would come and put this stuff better than I was putting it and you did.
Thanks weaver ⌠very well put ⌠a great contribution to this discussion.
Divineis ⌠what can I say ⌠you crack me up ⌠I love the way you put things ⌠helps me to let go of being so serious and tightly wrapped âŚ
Love and Light,
Steve
haha, thanks Steve :). My goal is to unwrap all who cross my path, bit by bit. Starting with me of course though⌠Iâm a selfish *******, what can I say :).
Hi all,
Well⌠a very interesting discussion, and some great input from many people. I can see that mapping out the process of human spiritual transformation is going to be a more complex process than I thought. Lucky weâve got thousands of years to do it.
It seems to me that there are three schools of thought emerging:
- That human spiritual transformation basically follows a fairly linear pattern with everyone going through similar stages in basically the same order.
- That there is a linear sequence of events, but with a lot of room for individual differences along the way and perhaps variations in the sequence in which things happen.
- That there is no pattern at all in human spiritual transformation and everyone develops differently.
We could add to that the view of Krishnamurti that there is no such thing as spiritual development at all and all you need to do is to sit on top of the mountain. This view is similar to the mention of spiritual development being more a process of undoing that someone mentioned above. But as many years of spiritual practices seem to be required in order to be able to understand that view, it might just be the least useful of the four.
As I mentioned above, I (personally) am seeing increasingly that option 1 is presenting itself as the most likely ultimate outcome, though I am willing to believe that option 2 could also prove to be valid. I also believe that ultimately we will all agree with Krishnamurti, simply because there is no other valid point of view once a certain stage of the development of consciousness has been passed. After all, when all is seen to be one, and is seen to have always been one without second, then who could have developed spiritually, and when would they have done it?
But in the meantime, for us lesser mortals, as far as ranking people goes on the level of spiritual development, I think this is an automatic and necessary process. We all do it, all the time and have our own methods by which we do it. Why would anyone want to buy one of Yoganiâs books? Or read the main lessons on this website and follow them? There may be an element by which they feel they resonate with the practices, but they must also feel that he has a high degree of competency and ability in the field of yoga. The same would hold true for many spiritual teachers who people hold in high esteem. They hold them in high esteem because they have demonstrated a high degree of knowledge and ability and competency in their field. Not every spiritual teacher is held in such high esteem and each individual will hold some in higher esteem than others. A result of a natural ranking process. Krishnamurti may have seen everyone as equal, expressions of his own universal self, but then he was the greatest of all masters, the âfinal flowerâ.
As for supernatural powers, we are starting to see members of this forum reporting that these are beginning to develop naturally as a direct result of spiritual practices. Recently clair-empathy, clair-sentience, clair-voyance and bi-location have all been reported, as well as the ability to heal others simply through touch or by being present for them. Gradually we will see more and more of these supernatural powers being reported here, and the debate over whether or not they are real will change into a debate over how they are best to be used. Nobody will be flying through the air with their underpants on the outside of their tights, so the word âsupermanâ may be misleading, especially as that was never listed in the scriptures as one of the siddhis that humans develop. Humans do develop the ability to fly, but not in their physical bodies. On the other hand, x-ray vision is not listed in the scriptures, but it is one of the powers that humans develop. Barbara Brennon describes how this siddhi developed in her in great detail in her âHands of Lightâ book. She also describes the development of many other powers, which developed in her own body, which are identical to those that some members of this forum are experiencing.
As someone mentioned above, these powers only seem supernatural to a society in which they are relatively rare. When everyone has them, they will no longer be called supernatural, just ordinary.
Does someone who is experiencing the development of supernatural powers in their body/mind necessarily become inflated or narcissistic? Not at all. The vast majority of people I know who have supernatural powers are very modest and demonstrate a high degree of selflessness. As I mentioned above there is a danger of the ego becoming magnified as a result of this development, but it is only a slight risk, and certainly not a necessity. Only a very few fall into this trap. It is a real trap though, because the supernatural powers are real, and are manifesting in us more each day.
Christi
Hi David,
That is probably not realistic for most people including myself.
Hopefully, a person can keep things in their proper perspective and have a balanced development.
Your thoughts regarding the difference and relationship between narcissism and inflation make sense to me. They arenât necessarily associated.
Agreed.
I think there is a true tradition of super men. But they are few and far between.
According to Elisabeth Haich, author of sexual Energy and Yoga, most of what we see today are people who have reached or are transitioning into the 6th out of 7 levels, the level of a prophets and saints of the west and the great seers and masters of the east. They have not reached perfection. They are one step below. The 5th level would be that of the genius and the fourth, the intellectual and the third, your ordinary run of the mill garden variety homo sap.
She says most of us wonât reach the 7th level, the level of a superman this lifetime. At the same time we should place limits on ourselves as no one can really know their karma nor the elastic limits of their nervous system. She calls this 7th level the God-man, someone who has become the absolute commander of the positive and negative forces that animate the universe.
She calls Christ, the God-man best known and least understood in the west. Other examples she gives are Moses and the pharaohs and high priests of ancient Egypt at the height of its civilization. I think she puts Ramakrishna in this class as well.
It is one way of looking at it.
Best, yb.
Hi weaver,
As Yogani puts it, it is the ultimate example of less becoming more.
From Self Inquiry by Yogani(which I highly recommend):
Some have claimed that this is the end of the ego.
Well, maybe by someoneâs definition it is, but it is
certainly not the end the person. Rather it is the
expansion of the person to the level of divine
expression.
It is correct to say that enlightenment is the
end of identification and the simultaneous expansion of
divine engagement. It is the ultimate example of less
becoming more.
I donât know whether there is or isnât a limit. Haich talks about her guru in a past life in Egypt who was her uncle and high priest. Her father was the pharaoh and he and her uncle ran the country at the time. The one tended the spiritual and the other to the material needs of the Egyptian people.
According to her, they were both supermen or as they referred themselves, Sons of God. Her uncleâs karma didnât require him to incarnate for 10,000 years after that life because he hadnât engaged in many worldly acts whereas her father would have to incarnate in maybe 3000 years due to his being more involved with the world.
Both had the ability to elevate themselves at will to God consciousness. But did so only at certain times and mostly operated from the sixth level when attending to their duties as best I understand it.
At this time, she had been artificially able to experience the divine level in the sarcophagus of the great pyramid after a period of several years of yogic sadhana in the temples of their mystery schools. This was referred to as Initiation and she was then allowed to become a priestess in the temple. It seems to me to be a kind of ultimate shaktipat.
According to her, Raja yoga was very much a part of their spiritual culture. In this Egyptian life, after many years of yogic preparation of her nervous system, she achieved the sixth level and passed all the necessary prerequisite tests to undergo initiation, passed this test, and her task was to now achieve the seventh level by her own efforts.
She possessed your standard yogic super powers such as telepathy and controlling wild animals with her will.
Undergoing this Initiation was very dangerous and could result in death and so candidates had to pass highly selective tests in order to be allowed to take the chance to experience cosmic consciousness. Apparently some died during it and had to continue working out their karma in later lives. And some died after initiation, not having achieved it on their own efforts during that life and having to work at in subsequent lives as well.
She was one of these last. She failed to close a karmic door prior to undergoing her initiation and it was her downfall and she burned out her nervous system and committed suicide as a result.
If you achieved cosmic consciousness by your own efforts after your initiation, you were completely free and could not fall. You became a superman. Completely developed power and completely ethical.
I gave examples of these in my last post. Moses was raised by Egyptian royalty.
Her father and uncle had tried to warn her to experience physical love prior to undergoing her training as she could possibly release creative energy untransformed to a level tolerable by her body during the act if she lost control and burn out her nerves. She became super depressed after this and took her life. They both new her fate but because of karmic laws and not interfering with free will and stuff like that, they had to remain silent and let her learn the hard way.
She had to go thru several lives to reach her former level and achieve illumination in this life by her own efforts. She also re-established contact with her uncle. She said her father had reincarnated during the 1900s but was vague about who and where he was.
But she said that she still had work to do on her body after her illumination and that it was not perfect. So what is the ultimate that a human being can achieve? It is beyond me. Since she was fairly involved in earthly life, she will probably incarnate sooner than later.
She states that the amount of time spent on other planes between lives is a function of how material your desires are. this determines the strength of the the pull back to the earthly plane of existence.
I do not understand the subtle nuances and variations of individual karma and spiritual development. I donât know how it all fits together. I donât think it matters if I do either. This is under the hood type stuff. But I can grab on to something like âas you sow so shall your reapâ and use it to guide me in the real world.
So this story helps me, anyways, to rationalize the inconsistent behavior of some gurus and place them on a scale where they can be spiritually superior and still demonstrate some fundamental flaws. They can fall.
And people who place them on a pedestal and idolize them will learn their necessary unexpected karmic lessons when they do.
As her student, Selvarajan Yesudian said, she was a teacher who did not influence you but taught you not to be influenced. As Yogani says, âthe guru is in you.â
OK. There is my book report. This story is, perhaps, a little out there, even for this forum, but this lady and Mr. Yesudian ran the largest yoga school in Europe for sometime after the end of WW2 until they both passed in the 90âs. And their books are some of the best I have read on Yoga. I thought I would post it because it relates to what weaver wrote and it also might inject a kind of interesting twist into the models of yogic history some people might have here on the website.
Her autobiography is called Initiation for any one who is interested in this type of thing.
Best, yb.
Christi said:
Gradually we will see more and more of these supernatural powers being reported here, and the debate over whether or not they are real will change into a debate over how they are best to be used.
If anyone involved in AYP develops real powers that they can really demonstrate, Iâd entreat them to do the following: organize a test for the Randi prize, which is now over $1 million. Arrange in advance where the money goes (keep some or all yourself, donate whatever to charity). The world of science will immediately take an enormous interest, as will the world at large. Thereâs a great basis here for promoting AYP, and changing world outlook.
But I donât think this is going to happen because I donât think anyone who can demonstrate those powers in a sophisticated test is going to arise. But if such a person does, Iâll take my hat off to them.
Does someone who is experiencing the development of supernatural powers in their body/mind necessarily become inflated or narcissistic? Not at all.
I do agree with that â if one had supernatural powers, one would not necessarily become inflated or narcissistic. But itâs a complex matter. The problem is, many people donât have such powers at all in any proper sense of the word â and they have a strong desire to both have them, (or some more general powers or just some general amazingness), and to be admired for having them. The are drawn to milieus in which other people have operated on the same desires. That can be a case of furthering unhealthy, narcissistic (egotistical) karma. At the extreme end of this are the black magicians. But unfortunately the problem operates too among people who are nowhere near being black magicians. I believe some of the great yogic missionaries to the West in the 20th century were to a certain extent infected with such problems. This problem includes some gurus who did not particularly identify themselves as Yogis, and the âpowersâ were not always strictly magical â it could even be some perceived power to âenlightenâ that was way overblown.
So âpowersâ do not necessarily bring inflation or narcissism, but there are very big risks involved.
Iâm not worried about anyone who could pass Randiâs test. Iâm worried about those thousands who canât, but will cultivate the impression that they could â who want to live in a milieu in which they are regarded as more than they are.
BTW, if you or anyone else do find you have developed abilities that are of interest to Science, and can be demonstrated to Science, I think youâre on the right track on intending to show them to Science.
Hi David,
I think I would worry about anyone going on the Randi show. It is an American TV show⌠it is designed to do one thing, to make money. It is not designed to give anyone a million dollars. The show gets audiences by denouncing people as frauds. Thatâs all it does. I would strongly advise anyone on this forum, or anywhere else, who is experiencing the development of supernatural powers in their body to not go on this show whatever happens.
Having said that, I think anyone interested in making demonstrations of supernormal powers to scientists, should go ahead and do it, as long as any experiments carried out are done properly.
I have already mentioned in another thread that I can perform supernatural abilities that would prove the existence of such powers, but so far have decided not to undergo scientific experiments. The reasons are simple. Firstly a properly conducted scientific test, carried out under proper conditions would have to involve a lot of people and would be expensive to carry out. I canât imagine any reputable team of scientists actually funding the study.
Secondly, even if someone did fund it, I think the scientists would simply conclude that a power is being effectively demonstrated, but they have no idea how it is being done. I could explain how it is done to them, but the chances of them believing me is so small, that it could be a waste of breath. Supernatural powers work in specific scientific ways, but understanding how they work requires an understanding of whole aspects of the universe that currently lie outside of the modern scientific paradigm. I donât think me making a demonstration of my (relatively minor) supernormal powers would change the world, and may not change anything at all. It would probably get reported in some scientific journal somewhere and then be forgotten about. Personally, I donât see the point of going through all that.
But if others want to, then I would encourage them.
One thing to remember is that many of the supernatural powers that develop through yoga simply are not demonstrable in a scientific way. One example would be the ability to see invisible beings. You can hardly stand there and say, âyes, I can see them, they are here nowâ. It just wouldnât prove anything to someone who could not see them. And finding a team of scientists, who can all see invisible beings, is really hard these days. Thereâs a real shortage.
As we progress on the path I think we will have to continue for some time in a situation where people are discussing the development of these powers in their own bodies, but are not able to prove their existence (and probably would not want to even if they could). I donât think that any lack of understanding in the scientific arena should inhibit us in any way at all at this point. Eventually science will catch up.
But the real process of becoming superhuman is not in the development of powers at all. These are just by-products of something else happening, which is the transformation of consciousness from ordinary consciousness to supramental consciousness. Compared to this, any supernatural powers pale into insignificance. It is the transformation of humans into sons and daughters of God, inheritors of the kingdom of heaven on earth. It is our divine potential, and our rightful inheritance.
Christi
âSome people donât know, and you canât even explain things to them because they donât have the power to understand.â
(Amma Karunamayi)
Christi said:
think I would worry about anyone going on the Randi show. It is an American TV show⌠it is designed to do one thing, to make money. It is not designed to give anyone a million dollars. The show gets audiences by denouncing people as frauds. Thatâs all it does. I would strongly advise anyone on this forum, or anywhere else, who is experiencing the development of supernatural powers in their body to not go on this show whatever happens.
There is currently a significant area of research into reliable ways of telling if someone is telling the truth or not â machines are being developed for the purpose and the future is promising. My own personal prediction is that they will be successful in the endeavor, and the world will be impacted positively in many ways.
Such a business an be called lie detection, or also truth evidencing (itâs really honesty-evidencing). Really, they are the same thing â if you can prove (or provide very powerful evidence for) the telling of lies, then you can provide very powerful evidence that they are telling the truth.
If such machines are successful, the benefit to society will be enormous. People who were wrongly convicted will be able to get out of prison on the strength of their own empowered truth-telling. In other cases, one-witness crimes will be more possible to prosecute on the basis of empowered truth-telling. If someone has lies to tell, I could see reason to be hostile to such a machine. If someone has important truth to tell, I could see good reason to be positive.
Potentially, it will have an impact on the guru-business too. Someone who has interesting experiences to report might well be asked by an intelligent public to empower their testimony of their experience by machine.
Randiâs set-up is something like a lie-detector set-up â or a truth-evidencing set-up to someone who intends to be truthful. Right now, if a person has demonstrable psychic abilities, they can establish a successful proof through Randi. Randi is a blessing or a curse, depending on whether one is a fraud or not.
Randi doesnât believe in psychic powers, he believes the claimants are all frauds or deluded. This doesnât matter. He invokes no fear or hostility in me whatsoever, despite the fact that he is geared to proving âfraudâ, just as a lie-detector is geared to detecting lies, but also serves to evidence non-fraud. He is geared to proving fraud, and will be an empowerer of non-fraud. If I manifest genuine âpsychicâ powers, he is my friend, not my enemy.
I think anyone interested in making demonstrations of supernormal powers to scientists
Unfortunately, this doesnât work. Scientists arenât good fraud-detectors. They are too naive in the ways of conjuring. Time and time again, they were hoodwinked. Right now, we yawn if some scientist is hoodwinked. If Randi is convinced, we will not yawn. Prove on front of Randi, and the scientists will follow. The only way to have tests taken seriously is through a serious test.
Iâm not saying claimants to paranormal powers are always lying. They are often deluded through simple cognitive biases. There are a number of these biases and they are an interesting study in themselves.
Hi Christi,
It might not be as difficult to find a reputable scientist willing to fund and carry out experiments of this nature. A young Canadian guy, who has exceptional healing talents is doing just that, see here:
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3651#3651
I believe his approach in the beginning was to meet with one open-minded scientist in a related field, demonstrate his abilities and then volunteer to do experiments. I canât remember the details, but between his books and his conference, he discusses his role in this of regularly participating in experiments to prove his abilities at a reputable American university.
I believe this is the thrust of Adamâs intentions. He wants to help science build a bridge between known science and yet to be understood science (supernormal powers).
Perhaps to help open the minds of this world a little bit further, much good can come from that.
There are a vast number of people on this earth, as well as spiritual beings, that could easily demonstrate the kind of phenomena you are asking for. Yet they are not, and one might wonder why. I think this is so because humankind has free will to choose and determine the future, and a divine demonstration would be interfering with that. Free will means that God will not force the Reality on anyone, and the same goes for the demonstration of mastery of a higher reality to people really not interested.
LaMNN, I think you have a point. I also associate to the vast number of people out there that perform miracles in healing, mind reading and fortelling the future all the time, but they have no interest in showing off!
I believe the further we go on this path, the more our wisdom will increase, and also our humbleness/humility. We will not have the incitament to go prove anything. We will use our gifts where they are needed, and they are not needed to chock the masses out there in a TV show.
I have a friend who can stop bleedings. She is a nurse, and the during operations, the doctors are always astonished how the bleeding is inhibited when she is near. Yet, they donât investigate it further, and she doesnât care. She serves the best way she can.
Heard about another person (whom I know is for real and her talents are for real) who worked at a hospital and her treatments increased the healing rate of the patients to such degree that she was asked to leave her job. The doctors couldnât take it that her methods were more efficient than theirs. She didnât feel the need to fight for her rights, methods or to prove herself. To fight the compact medical health care system was not of her interest. She heals people outside of hospitals insteadâŚ
The doctors could have all possibilities in the world to do research on the famous âplacebo effectâ, but instead of investigating further the amazing powers of the âmindâ ( haha, itâs so hilarious when you know itâs the divine behind it allâŚ) they sort of just say BAH! and arrogantly wave it off as âItâs just the Placeboâ, as if they knew what that was!? There is some research done at the placebo, but there is not much interest in it compared to other medical areas, but as long as they havenât found the factor X behind it, itâs difficult to do anything else than conclude that there is some great power there behind thoughts⌠Hahahaha! Looking at it from the spiritual perspective really makes the whole situation seem ridiculous!
As long as we canât âmeasureâ the powerful energy in a reliable and valid way⌠what is there to do for a scientist? Continue to try to prove âthere MUST BE something influencing the resultsâ without ever finding it, because it has to be looked for inside himself and eventually self-experienced by deep meditation?