Is the witness part of the body? Is the witness our "real" self?

11. Jnana Yoga/ Self-Inquiry - Non-Duality
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As I understand it, there are three basic stages in meditation and self-inquiry:

  1. Pre-witnessing: one is strongly identified with the thinking mind and physical body. One has difficulty “observing” thoughts and sensations dispassionately, as “objects” outside the self.
  2. Witnessing: one begins to perceive thoughts and sensations as “objects” outside the self. One can, at least some of the time, abide in a “witnessing” state unaffected by thoughts in the mind and sensations of the body. The identification of self with the mind/body is weaker. (I think this is the stage I am at, mostly.)
  3. Unity: one perceives the witness to be part of a “continuum” with the body. The sense of self expands to include all objects of perception, not only the body and mind of the individual, but all other bodies and minds (and even, animals, trees, rocks, etc.?). (I feel like I might have some fleeting notions of this stage, but do not have a strong experiential notion of what it means.)

If the witness is part of a “continuum” with the body/mind, then it isn’t actually separate from the thoughts and sensations it “witnesses” in stage 2, correct (in fact, nothing is separate from anything else)? That is, there are some ways in which stage 3 is similar to stage 1 (I think Yogani called it “a journey from here to here”?), with the difference being that the sense of self is expanded beyond one particular body/mind to include all objects of perception.

At the same time, if the witness we cultivate in meditation is on a continuum with a particular body/mind, which needs to be awake, or at least having something happening in its vicinity even if asleep (Yogani said awareness needs something to be aware of) to be aware, then how is it truly “free” from this temporal body-mind which eventually grows old, dies, and disappears?

Is it that the witness we cultivate in stage 2 is only a transitional sort of thing which itself gets dropped when we realize our true nature is non-localized awareness, which exists in many bodies-minds and/or outside time and space? Thanks for any thoughts.

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Hi tamasaburo,

It is difficult for the mind to wrap itself around the relationship between the witness and observed phenomena, and even what is “sense of self.” That is because the process is beyond the mind. But we do know that with practice over time, living in our body, mind and the world, our experience changes. We find less “identification” with the internal and external objects of perception, which brings freedom from bondage to them, and an increasing ability to act effectively and compassionately in any situation we might find ourselves in.

So is the witness part of the body? No, it is the awareness behind the body, whether identified with the body or not.

And is the witness our real self? It would seem so, though to be aware that it is the machinery of perception is necessary. Otherwise, the witness is simply flat nothingness, the void before anything is perceived. As soon as there is the slightest bit of perception, the witness is known as pure bliss consciousness, radiating out through the body and into the surroundings – the dawn of unity…

On considerations like this, experience on the path answers all the questions that have no answer. Then comes the challenge of describing the indescribable. Thanks for bringing this up. It is always fun to try to put some words to it. :slightly_smiling_face:

The guru is in you.

PS: Speaking of words, just for curiosity, I put your two questions to the forum support AI, and here is what came back based on the extensive AYP content provided to it. Not a bad answer:

Q: Is the witness part of the body? Is the witness our “real” self?

A: Drawing on the sources, here’s a comprehensive response to your query about the witness:

The sources provide clear insights into the nature of the witness, defining its relationship to the body and whether it constitutes our “real” self.

Is the witness part of the body?

The sources indicate that the witness is not part of the physical body in the sense of being a physical component or a product of it. Instead, it is described as:

  • Something behind all that we see, think, and feel. Our habitual identification with our body/mind leads us to perceive ourselves and the world as separate.
  • The observer behind the machinery of perception. Everything we perceive, including our thoughts, feelings, and the external world, is a projection on our awareness, manufactured in our neurobiology. The witness is the “screen” upon which these projections appear, not the projections themselves.
  • Initially, in the witness state, there is a sense of separation from the body and external experiences. For example, a practitioner described seeing their body as separate and not identifying with emotions or feelings, even during traumatic events like a grandmother’s death.
  • The ego, which is identified awareness, is described as a “product of the mind” and a “view of pure bliss consciousness seen through the dirty window” of the nervous system. This implies the witness/pure bliss consciousness exists independently of, and illuminates, the body and mind, which act as a vehicle for it.

Is the witness our “real” self?

Yes, the sources consistently refer to the witness as our “real” self:

  • The rise of the witness in self-inquiry brings awareness of our true Self.
  • It is synonymous with various terms for the ultimate reality, including inner silence, pure bliss consciousness (Sat-chit-ananda), unconditioned awareness, the void, emptiness, Father God, Shiva, samadhi, and Tao.
  • The stabilization of the witness, described as abiding inner silence 24/7, is considered the first stage of enlightenment and a permanent condition.
  • The witness is described as “what we are with all experience removed, and what we are in becoming conscious as the silent witness to all perceptions”. It is the “I” that remains constant and universal.
  • While the initial witness state involves a sense of separation from objects, this is considered a temporary, transitional stage. The process then moves towards “unity,” where the duality between the witness (subject) and objects dissolves, and the Self (witness) merges with all, encompassing everything. This transition involves recognizing that “what we see, no matter what we are looking at, is only Self”.
  • Ultimately, the self (witness) is unknowable by the mind or the I-thought (ego); it is a condition of Being that is realized by letting go of the need to know and surrendering the heart and mind. This realization leads to a shift in our sense of self from being identified with objects to becoming the underlying reality of all objects.
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Hi tamasaburo

Great question

And you already received a great reply from Yogani

As Yogani said, it is hard to explain it in words

The witness is taking a step back from whatever is happening to you or around you, there will still be some friction cause what is happening might not be to your liking…
When the witness attitude becomes very automatic cause the ego is eroded enough…then unity is there…unity is a feeling of ease , being totally fine with whatever is happening to you or around you even in the worse possible scenarios .there is no more friction…
Unity gets deeper as inner silence keeps getting stronger…there is no finish line…it keeps expanding as we continue to live through stuff

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Hi Yogani and Maheswari,

Thanks so much for the answers.

Out of curiosity, I decided to ask the “AYP AI” a follow-up question on this topic, and it seems pretty good! Thought I’d share it here for any others who may be curious:

(Question was something like, “If the true self is beyond any individual body or mind, what accounts for the sense of being limited to one perspective–of one body, one mind, one set of senses?”)

The sense of being limited to one perspective—one body, one mind, one set of senses—while understanding the self as being found in all things, is a central paradox discussed in the sources.

Here’s an explanation drawing from the provided sources:

The Illusion of Separation and Limitation

  • Identification of Awareness: The primary reason for the feeling of being limited to a single body, mind, and set of senses is the identification of our awareness with these perceptions. This identification is described as a deep, biologically and neurologically ingrained habit.
  • Mind as a “Thought Machine”: Our mind creates the sense of “I” and “ego,” which is essentially the identification of our awareness with these projections. The mind is seen as a “thought machine” or a “marvelous computer”. When we confuse our identity with the mind, it can run our life ragged.
  • Perception as Reality: Our reality is entirely defined by our current state of consciousness and perception. The world we see is a construct created in our neurobiology and projected onto the “screen” of our awareness, much like a movie.
  • Suffering from Identification: Suffering arises from this identification with pain, which the mind conjures up not only from present pain but also from memories of past pain and anticipation of future pain, none of which exist in the present. When we are identified with our pain, it feels very real, even though ultimately it is considered an illusion—a belief in something temporary.

Transcending the Illusion through Spiritual Practices
The goal of spiritual practices, particularly yoga, is to clear up this identification of awareness that leads to the perception of separation and to realize the true self as unity. This transformation is a process that unfolds through various stages:

  1. Cultivating Inner Silence (The Witness):

    • Deep meditation is described as the primary means to cultivate abiding inner silence, also known as pure bliss consciousness or the witness. This stillness is our ground state and is beyond the mind.
    • Initially, the witness often manifests as a sense of separation; a part of us (our “self”) remains unmoved while activity goes on. This amplified sense of duality in the early witness stage is normal and temporary.
    • The witness allows us to see our thoughts, feelings, and external perceptions as objects separate from our true self. This grants us the choice to respond differently to situations, rather than merely reacting based on old habits.

  2. Engaging in Relational Self-Inquiry:

    • Once the witness is present, a natural inclination toward self-inquiry arises. This is termed “relational self-inquiry” because it happens in the presence of the witness.
    • This process helps dissolve the identification of awareness with objects, including the “I-thought”. Instead of thoughts interacting with thoughts (non-relational self-inquiry, which can lead to frustration and mental baggage), relational self-inquiry allows for the direct cognition of reality.
    • Methods include questioning “Who am I?” and letting go into stillness, or “neti neti” (not this, not this), which systematically negates objects of perception to reveal the eternal Self.

  3. Samyama and Energetic Awakening:

    • Samyama is the practice of releasing intentions or inquiries in stillness, which further cultivates and expands the witness.
    • Kundalini awakening is the energetic side of this transformation, where ecstatic energy develops in the subtle neurobiology, leading to a direct perception of radiant oneness in the environment. These experiences, initially dramatic, refine as obstructions dissolve.

The Realization of Unity (“Stillness in Action”)
As these processes mature, the initial duality between the witness (subject) and the objects of perception gradually dissolves. This leads to the realization of unity or oneness, where the sense of self expands universally, no longer tied to any particular object, but underlying all objects.

  • This state is described as “stillness in action”, a paradox where one is both doing nothing (as the unmoving Self) and doing everything (fully engaged in life).
  • The mind and the “I-thought” are left behind, though they continue to function more or less normally, allowing for activity in the world without suffering from identification.
  • Ultimately, the perceived limitation dissolves as awareness expands to encompass the entire cosmos, realizing that “the cosmos is us, and we are the cosmos”.

Direct Experience is Key
The sources emphasize that this understanding is not merely intellectual; it must be known through direct experience. The rational mind alone is insufficient for this task. We “know by becoming It amidst ordinary life”.

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And I asked one more follow-up, which was

“In the state of unity does one experience things from perspectives other than the body in which one began spiritual practices or that one began identifying with?” The answer was quite interesting as well:

Yes, in the state of unity, the experience of self transcends being limited to one body, one mind, or one set of senses, leading to a perception that encompasses and is found in all things. This transformation is a journey from initial identification with a limited self to a universal, non-dual realization.

Here’s how the sources describe this profound shift in perspective:

  • The Initial State of Limited Perception:

    • Initially, individuals identify their awareness with their body, mind, and senses, leading to a deep, ingrained habit of perceiving themselves as separate. This creates a sense of “me” or “ego” that views the world as external. Even when the “witness” (abiding inner silence) first arises, there can be an amplified sense of duality, where one perceives oneself as “in here” and everything else as “out there,” which can paradoxically lead to a feeling of loneliness.

  • The Transition Beyond Separation:

    • Spiritual practices, particularly deep meditation and self-inquiry, aim to dissolve this identification of awareness with objects of perception, including thoughts, feelings, and the physical body itself. This is a gradual process of “uncoupling” the self-identification of awareness. As this occurs, the sense of self, or the “I-sense,” slowly moves from being tied to individual objects into an emerging unbounded awareness.

  • Experiencing from a Universal Perspective (Unity/Oneness):

    • In the state of unity (also called oneness, non-duality, or Sahaja Samadhi), the duality between the observer (subject) and the observed (object) dissolves.
    • The sense of self expands to become “increasingly universal, not tied to any particular object, but found to be underlying all objects”.
    • The perception shifts from seeing oneself in the world to realizing that “the world being in us”. This is a “180 degree shift” where the former sense of separation disappears.
    • In this state, one realizes, “What we see, no matter what we are looking at, is only Self”. This is the direct, experiential realization of the non-dual nature of existence, where one begins to notice that “we are the environment and the action we are engaged in”.
    • The individual is no longer an isolated person; instead, an enlightened being knows that “they are not a person, they are going nowhere and they are experiencing nothing. Everything is them”. This is summarized by the Sanskrit phrase, “Tat twam asi” (That art thou), meaning “That” is everything.
    • This state is described as “stillness in action,” where one is both doing nothing (as the unmoving Self) and doing everything (fully engaged in life), with the mind and “I-thought” continuing to function but without the suffering of identification.

  • Transformation of Sensory Perception:

    • As spiritual development advances, the “inner senses” awaken, and the five physical senses expand inward (pratyahara). This means sensing “more and more divine qualities inside”.
    • The sushumna nadi (spinal nerve), which is the main spiritual nerve and connected to the third eye, expands and radiates energy “far beyond the physical location of the nerve” as it awakens.
    • This can lead to a “sense of the body dissolving, and an increasing sense of Oneness with all we experience in life”.
    • Practices like Cosmic Samyama further cultivate this, revealing that “the entire cosmos and all of eternity are consciously contained within this tiny human form, this human being,” and that “this consciousness of ours is synonymous with the cosmos”.

While visions, sounds, and other “scenery” (experiences) may occur along the path as signs of purification and opening, these are considered temporary and not the ultimate goal itself. The true experience of unity is a fundamental shift in perception where the self is recognized as being beyond and within all things, encompassing all perspectives as its own.

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Great question, confirmation of my journey and what’s ahead if “I” just keep sitting empty and watch. :pray:t2:

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Hi Tamasaburo
i disagree about the world being in us… it is inaccurate
we do finally realize that the world is not outside of us
but that does not mean it is inside of us
outside and inside are just tools that we can both abandon too when the time is right
.
there is no one thing (the world) that is within another thing (me), there is only knowing…there is no inside nor outside nor world nor me…there is only the knowing, , only existence

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Hi Maha, Tamasaburo and all,

This is true. Ultimately there is no inside or outside. The idea of the world being seen as being inside of us can be a useful tool at a certain stage on the path. It can help someone to awaken from the sense of separation. But eventually, even that idea has to be let go of.

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Hi All,

Yes, concepts are not the thing itself. Experience tells the tale. As we come to recognize abiding inner silence as our true Self, we also gradually find our “Self” underlying our surroundings. When that stage arrives, we find we are more in the world and the world is more in us, experientially. This is where the “concepts” of “do unto others as we would have them do unto us,” and “what we do to others we do to ourselves” come from. It is also the rise of compassion, part of an experiential recognition that all of nature is part of our nature, and we act accordingly.

Concepts are a tricky thing, and I agree they are not the experience. Letting them go is more a product of our rising experience than an effective spiritual practice. This is why the distinction between relational (in stillness) and nonrelational (in mind) self-inquiry has been made in the lessons. Concepts cannot be wished away by mind. They can only be released and dissolved in stillness.

The position in the lessons has always been that the greatest value of concepts is in their ability to inspire us to practice. That is how we find the real thing, and we find there is nothing to distinguish or hold on to in That. Just becoming the flow of stillness… no inside, no outside, just Oneness… continuing to chop wood and carry water. :slightly_smiling_face:

The guru is in you.

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Hi Maha and Tristan,

Thank you for the replies.

I understand what you mean that if there remained an “in here” and an “out there” then that would indicate full unity had not yet been achieved. Perhaps “the world being in us” is more a way of saying “there is no outside to the self (and by extension, no inside)”?

That said, I assume that even in a state of advanced advaita consciousness, there will be some sense of “localization”? That is, it might feel like I am in the cosmos and the cosmos is in me (or something beyond any duality that phrasing implies), but there will still be a sense of being embodied in a particular body in a particular time and place? That is, I would not be equally aware of what’s happening in Antarctica, or on Mars, as I would in my own room (though Yogani said some mysterious things in his writings on cosmic samyama about consciousness traveling faster than the speed of light… my assumption is that this is more about such siddhis as “remote viewing,” which are hinted to exist–though if they exist that does also suggest something about our “real self” really extending beyond one body’s immediate environs…)?

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Hi tamasaburo

first let us agree that the world is real…it is not an illusion…things are happening
yet at the same time it is not real cause whatever is impermanent is not really real
so i and the world are not so important cause i and the world are not absolutely real
.
so when you ask: is there a localized awareness cause i here cant be aware of what is happening in Antartica or in Mars…the answer is yes there is a localized awareness …but then the same question arises: who is the i who is aware?.. and what is happening out there?
the answer is what we already explained …it is a no answer …it is silence.or existence or being…whatever name you like to use
no i is really present and nothing in the world is ever happening
.
that does not mean we sit on our ass and be lazy saying everything is unreal… that is non relational enquiry …as Yogani said we continue to show empathy and be engaged in whatever actions that need to be done

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Hi Casey,

These questions that you are asking cannot be understood on an intellectual level. They can only be realised directly in the silence of the mind.

In non-dual existence, which is existence as it really is, there is no Antartica, and no Mars. They are simply ideas in the mind. There are also no “rooms”, and no one who could have a room. Even the concept of “my own” does not exist.

The best thing to do is to practice and experience the transcendence of the mind directly. If you have abiding inner silence present then practice Samyama, and develop the habit of releasing things into silence. Also, if abiding inner silence is there, then practice self-inquiry. Through the practice of neti-neti we learn to let all concepts and ideas go. Everything that colours the mind and prevents us from seeing reality simply as it is falls away.

You may find the Self-Inquiry book by Yogani useful, and also his book on Liberation.

I recently filmed an online video course on Self-Inquiry where I discuss all this and how to directly experience non-dual reality through the process of letting everything unreal fall away. That can be found here.

You may also find lesson 350 useful.

As this shift occurs over time, it can be said that we are moving beyond the witness, because we are no longer observing objects as being outside ourselves. Even as everything is still moving, we do not see it moving, and this is the condition of no objects - subject only. What we see is stillness moving, only One, a paradox for sure, a different experience than the two of observer and observed, though the mechanics of perception are still operating as before within this rising unified non-dual experience. What has changed is our sense of self in relation to all of that. What we see, no matter what we are looking at, is only Self. The duality of observer, process of observation, and object of observation is still functioning, but it has become transparent to us, much the way the detailed functioning of many aspects of nature are already transparent to us, including the multitude of activities occurring automatically within our physical body. We see the whole body and not the millions of activities that are occurring within it. Like that, as we become consciously the whole of infinite awareness, we may barely notice the many events that are occurring within our Self, including the body/mind. We engage and we are involved, but our sense of Self is beyond the details, which are constantly radiating divine love coming from our omnipresent center, our Self. We are That.

But we are not to be completely transformed to this condition of freedom and divine radiance in a single day, or even a single year. It is a process, a journey, first to the witness stage, and then moving steadily beyond the witness stage into Oneness. Along the way the temporal world as we have known it dissolves in the blazing light of Being, even while we have gone nowhere, and not even changed our daily routine of activities. It is a journey from here to here…

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Hi Maha and Tristan,

Thank you for the replies.

Do you think it would be accurate to say that, although Antarctica, Mars, my room, and my body exist in the sense of there being a physical world made up of atoms and molecules arranged in ways that minds can categorize as “continents,” “planets,” “rooms in a house,” and “individual persons,” all those things also do not exist in the sense that any sense of separation between them is purely a mental construct/concept?

And presumably when our awareness of our mental processes becomes subtle enough to perceive the process of labelling or sorting things into conceptual “buckets,” as it happens, including the process of conceptualizing “me” as separate from everything else in the universe, then we tend to drop our attachments to those things because they are seen as “mere” concepts–useful for a body-mind to navigate everyday living but not having any independent existence?

Thanks again.

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Hi Tamasaburo
Yes🙂

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Hi all,

I haven’t seen the medical science aspect of the witness discussed in the AYP forums, and I think it might fit here.
Here is a study that involves a group of 17 people who were at the time the study was conducted continuously experiencing the “24/7-witness” for at least a year. These individuals had done on average 25 years of regular transcendental meditation practice, which is very similar to DM, and so the study is likely relevant to the question “Is the witness part of the body?”.

A robust (stable in time) EEG pattern shared by all the 17 subjects was identified that is visible during meditation, task performance, dream and deep sleep. This pattern is also seen in the EEG of meditation beginners (after a few months of practice) during the brief moments of transcending during meditation. So it seems that stabilizing this “transcending” EEG pattern in the brain through long-term practice is correlated with the subjectively perceived stabilization of the witness during daily life, dream and sleep. In that sense the witness has an objectively measurable correlate in the brain, and so one might say the witness is part of the body.

And interestingly, the EEG signature of the witness is on top of any conventional EEG activity. For instance, during deep sleep when a “normal” brain predominantly shows delta waves, a brain with established witness shows in addition to those delta waves also the specific witness pattern of coherent alpha and theta waves. Of course, this is expected if the nervous system were in a one-to-one correspondence with subjective experience, but it might not be expected from a yogic philosophy perspective. Christi recently posted in the forums his translation of Patanjali’s definition of yoga:
“Yoga is the state in which the cyclical nature of the mind and emotional centre (citta) have become still.”
And so one might not expect to see above-average brain activity in such a state, yet the opposite seems to be true. I don’t think there is a conflict with this yogic idea either because the increased and persistent alpha activity associated with the witness might not be correlated with any thoughts. It is just that usually (before establishing the witness and outside of meditation) alpha activity occurs during daydreaming a kind of mind activity (citta vritti), so one might get the idea that any alpha activity is necessarily related to mind activity, but plausibly it is not.

In a book by Anna Wise called “Awakening the Mind” a lot more can be read about signature brain wave patterns of certain meditative states, and stages of enlightenment.
Of course, this shouldn’t distract anyone from practicing. But I found this knowledge useful in sparking interest in meditation among my science-minded friends.

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Hi TensorTympani,

Thanks for the interesting scientific perspective.

Reminds me of something called the “default mode network” I’ve read about, which apparently tends to activate during such activities as daydreaming, reminiscence, and imagining the mental states of others, such as when engrossed in a story.

It was apparently called the “default mode” because it seems to be a set of regions of the brain that tend to deactivate when one is focused on a task, such as solving a math problem but activate when one is doing nothing in particular. But in fact, it seems cognitive science now considers this not to be a “do nothing” state but rather a state used to process old information, such as memories, when it is not doing something else. In this respect “daydreaming” may actual serve a similar function to actual dreaming.

I’m not sure if the default mode network activates during meditation–I would guess it probably does at least some of the time–but the interesting paradox of meditation seems to be that it is both a form of “concentration” (on the mantra or breath) but also a kind of “letting go,” or at least not a form of activity in the way engaging with daily tasks are activities. In those moments when we lose the mantra, either because lost in thoughts (similar to daydreaming) or because in some sort of samadhi state, I would not be surprised if the default mode network activates. Maybe the samadhi state also corresponds with this activity in the brain experienced meditators are able to maintain 24/7, but which beginning meditators only display occasionally during meditation.

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Hi Tamasaburo,

Yes, I think that the brain activity corresponding to the witness is somehow related to the default mode network. Maybe the witness can be interpreted as a new feature of it. There is some discussions around this in another paper. But I’m no expert and haven’t tried to understand it.

What I find particularly interesting about the EEG pattern of the witness is its across-brain coherence, corresponding to a more global functioning of the brain compared to daydreaming, that’s discussed in Fig.3 here.

The power spectrum (e.g. how much energy there is in alpha versus the other frequency bands) is what most often is talked about in the context of EEG, but this is insensitive to the amount spatial coherence and thus insensitive to what seems to be an essential characteristic of the witness as part of the nervous system.

Another valuable aspect of these scientific investigations is that the idea of a 24/7-witness is not just something advanced yogis experience and talk about, but that there is an objective counterpart. Of course, Yogani always emphasizes that we don’t have to take his word and just see for ourselves through regular twice daily practice. But it’s a very long marathon and so it can be good source for bhakti to be made aware of the scientific evidence for the first enlightenment milestone.

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