FYI, Etherfish, a genuine Covenant of Faith is based on Trust and Love…not “fear of believing the wrong thing”! 
You overtly stated that “to me, belief is not very important”, but your posted opinions clearly prove that this is not so. You merely hold different beliefs to which you are obviously quite attached. 
It is only the beliefs of others, with whom you disagree, that are unimportant to you! So much so, in fact, that you apparently feel no reservation whatsoever in expressing your biases and assumptions in a manner which I believe you know is probably offensive to those whose beliefs you dismiss so disrespectfully. 
Perhaps you should consider including the practice of Samyama on Empathy and Compassion in your Sadhana. 
Hari OM!
Doc
Hi VIL:
This was completely understood. No problem here. We’re Cool! 
Hari OM!
Doc
doc wrote:
“You overtly stated that “to me, belief is not very important”, but your posted opinions clearly prove that this is not so. You merely hold different beliefs to which you are obviously quite attached.”
No, I’m not really attached to beliefs. What seems like attachment to beliefs to you is me verifying hypotheses with experiences. In other words, if anyone says “here is what I know to be true, and here is how you can verify it…”, that is the type of information I’m interested in. When I said belief is not very important, I meant unverifiable beliefs, which would include blind faith.
So although I may seem to be attached to a belief today, if evidence shows something different tomorrow, I have no resistance to changing it. It’s a scientific way to view the world.
I’m sorry if that offends others, but it shouldn’t. I don’t believe in trying to be “PC”, because it’s impossible unless you don’t say anything and pretend not to have opinions. Being offended is the currently popular way of controlling people. You can find people who are offended by anything and everything, and it’s not up to the masses to conform to the minorities. I try to avoid certain derogatory words that racially profile people, but that’s about as far as I go. I firmly believe in the golden rule though, and we can’t always predict how our speech affects others, so sometimes people have to explain why something is hurtful to them, not that it will change people’s behavior, but to promote understanding.
OK, on further thought I realized that joking that Jesus may have been a reptile would offend people, so I’m sorry I offended you.
I didn’t think of that because I believe God understands joking, and I don’t think of reptiles as being “lower” than us or god in any way. But now, I realized that people think jesus and god are way higher than us, and reptiles are way lower than us, so such a statement would be very offensive to them, so again, I apologize for the bad feelings.
Adding again; you can tell I live in Denver, and am snowed in; the whole city is shut down; I can’t get my car out but my internet works!
This whole thing started because I know some religious people hold the concept of the virgin birth of christ to be important. then I found out over 70 species of reptiles have that ability. Do we pretend this has no significance? To me it means nothing, but only because i believe jesus’ teaching are what is important, not any super-human aspects of him.
Correction. Kirtanman mistakenly attributed the that catchy “reptilian virgin” quip to Bewell. But it is Etherfish who deserves full credit.
Hey Bewell, Ether & All, Bewell - thanks for the correction - strange it happened though; I don't do "manual attribution" (well, not wrt forum posts, anyway ... :wink: :clown_face: ) --- I just cut-n-pasted .... and I don't know if anyone other than Yogani can see this (due to his also being "SysAdmini" :wink: ) - but my reply was _to_ Ether --- and (hopefully), all in good fun, anyway. There is a (ATTENTION AYP MEMBERS: HORRIBLE PUN WARNING; REPEAT - HORRIBLE PUN WARNING) sirius side to all this as well though, per the following info. Doc - first and foremost - Hari Om! Second and nextmost - while I truly appreciate (and largely agree with) your succinct yet exceptionally clear summary opinion, as evidenced by your PCE (Polite Company Expletive), expressed in the finest Texan tradition, to wit: (And I quote - quoting Doc here - to be clear and avoid confusion .... :wink: ) "Horse Apples!" (end quoting Doc) Please note that posting a link does not - repeat not - mean that I believe something, or that I am promoting its veracity or credibility. In fact, I usually say something to highlight my position, when I reference any information from "off site" - such as a link to another site filled with what the general public would consider strange and highly suspect spiritual information .... :wink: Meaning, I'll include a disclaimer something like - "I'm not saying I believe this information outright, but I did find it worth reading" - or some such. Now, all joking aside (for hopefully a fairly brief moment or two ... :slight_smile: ) ---- and talking to everyone, again, here (everyone other than Doc can now take their fingers out of their ears ..... :clown_face: ). (And now all joking really aside. Maybe.) Here's where I stand on this topic (the related information resources posted by myself and others as they relate directly to our AYP sadhana (individually and collectively) generally, and Ether's original question specifically) ... True Jnana Yoga - the yoga of knowledge and wisdom, is a path which is progressed upon by the following means: the yogic sadhaka gains information from various, hopefully credible sources - scriptures, the teachings of pundits (informational experts), acharyas (spiritual teachers) and gurus - and takes this information directly into their practice, either by applying it, and/or considering it. It is the direct experience of the veracity or the lack thereof in the sadhaka's practice, of any specific set of information, which leads to Jnana - knowledge. Even more succinctly (hey, for me this is succinct! :sunglasses: ) ... It is not the acquisition of information, but the realization of its actuality in practice, which gives a sadhaka jnana - knowledge - of reality - which is the only knowledge (I believe we can all agree) that really matters. When asked "what do you believe?" - Adyashanti (American spiritual teacher who I have a strong affinity with, for "anyone just joining us" :wink: ) replied, "I don't". He then clarified: "I know." (He has also said - many times - that he knows much much less than he used to, and that if anything, Enlightenment is more about un-knowing than knowing -- the quotes shown above are from a specific dialog with a satsang visitor, whose question was in the context of "What are your beliefs, Adya? Do you believe in God? Do you believe in reincarnation?", Etc.) Source: audio tape recording of an Adyashanti Satsang, produced by Adyashanti's sangha organization, Open Gate Sangha. Carl Jung was once asked, at a public lecture - "Do you believe in God?" He answered, "I do not believe..." There was of course a collective gasp (this was in the 1940s or 1950s) - but a sense that he might not be finished with his response. After what seemed like a very long time, Jung concluded .... "I know". (Source: Jung and the Story of Our Time by Laurens Van Der Post) So, how does all this possibly relate back to intelligent reptiles from the Sirius B system, and any possible ramifications the truth - or lack thereof - of their actual existence might have on AYP practice, and/or on Ether's question - which was: "Has anyone considered or known of this* producing a child, hopefully a little more recent than 2000 years ago?" *The "spiritual seed" Yogani refers to in Lesson T7 in the AYP Tantra Lessons. As often happens here in the forum (and which is not entirely a bad thing - though the risk of "thread creep" looms large :wink: - in our rearview mirrors, in this case, methinks ... :clown_face: ) --- this quickly dove-tailed into conversation about the Adam and Eve myth - and my comments (hard to believe maybe, but true) are designed (except for the obvious and stated jokes) -- to help link the two things together: 1. Ether's question, vis a vis spiritual seed creating a physical child. 2. How do interpretations of the Adam and Eve myth, and supporting and related myths from around the world, and throughout the ages, point us to any possible answer to this question? (Combined with what is obviously a whole lot of latitude to explore the topic in general .... :sunglasses: ). So --- here's where my "serious links" (so far, the ones from kalignosis.com, I believe) fit in: I believe it is not only very, very intriguing -- but also possibly very, very useful - to note that creation myths and "spiritual evolution" or "path of the soul" myths from around the world, and over a long period of time --- point to many of the same things (many of which originated in Vedic or Yogic traditions) - using many similar symbols. If I'm "inclined to believe" anything from related info - specifically the links I have shared in this thread, it is: The fact that much of the symbolism in almost all these myths (snake = life energy, female archetypes = manifested universe, male archetypes = the changeless Self, water = life energy / the manifested universe we humans have such a hard time seeing past, tree = spine, etc. etc. etc.) ... ... from traditions, most of them quite secret, until quite recently, as far and wide as: Yogic / Vedic Tradition, Buddhism, Egyptian Hermeticism, Freemasonry, mystic Christianity, the Judaic Qabalah, Rosicrucianism, ancient Greek and Roman mythology, Western Gnosticism, etc. etc .... ALL POINT TO "MAPS" WHICH CAN BE (POTENTIALLY) VERY HELPFUL TO OUR SADHANA. For instance, the first link from Kalignosis.com which I posted (the other being in a separate thread I started in the Kundalini section, on Chakras, from the same site) ... http://kalignosis.com/book/21Liquid...ousWater.php Has largely to do with the universality of the symbolism of water, and how it equates to sexuality -- and how understanding these things can relate directly to our yogic evolution -- because, "at the end of the day" .... SOME OF THAT SYMBOLISM IS EVERY BIT AS LITERAL AS IT IS SYMBOLIC. In yoga, there is a set of practices called Panchabhutas - Five Elements (Earth, Fire, Ether, Water, Air - Na Ma Shi Va Ya). There are Vedically prescribed mantra practices (which mantras to chant, how many repetitions, at what time of day, in what environment, etc.) - which allow a sadhaka to ultimately gain mastery over these elements -- meaning, if I understand correctly - NOT that they will control them (i.e. part seas, walk on water literally) -- but that they will no longer be held back yogically by the illusion that each element represents. However, VERY IMPORTANT NOTE - in Panchabhuta practice - the sadhaka works with the literal element as well as its symbolism (example: chanting the water-related mantra while sitting in water, or taking a shower.) Jesus said, "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." Most Christians use this as an argument in favor of the necessity of the rite of baptism - and/or that the physical birth (symbolized by the "water" which flows from a woman's womb as part of the physical birth process) must be followed by a spiritual awakening (following Jesus, in the opinion of most Christians.) I respectfully submit that Jesus may have been misunderstood, in both cases - and that he was speaking as a mystic and a yogi, using symbolism which was widely understood at the time - not because this idea is being back-filled by modern gnostics, or by me -- but because there is very strong evidence that this symbolism was understood in spiritual circles throughout the ancient world, which was contemporary to (the alleged historical) Jesus. We see the symbolism everywhere - Moses (Ganesha? Hanuman? Sri Kundalini herself?) - raising his staff (the spine, Mt. Meru, the caduceus), parting the waters and crossing (building a bridge from Ma Bharata - India - to Lanka - to rescue the captive Sita and transport her across the waters) into the promised land (paradise, Ayodha). And wow - this post is getting long, even for me --- so truly cutting to the chase: What would we have if we were to distill these ancient symbols and myths into modern language that we as sadhakas could use in our practice? My dear friends -- what we would have ------ coming full circle to where the information has been sitting in our laps, as it were .... is .... THE AYP TANTRA LESSONS. :grin: (And THANK YOU, Yogani, for having the commitment to Truth, so include Tantra, in this sense, as part of AYP -- for it does appear to be essential.) From Lesson T2: "The condition in the nervous system that we call "enlightenment" is also an ecstatic response in the body that is elicited by a particular type of stimulation – stimulation by advanced yoga practices that is biologically oriented toward the birth of our awareness in unending pure bliss consciousness and divine ecstasy. Is enlightenment at the expense of orgasm? No, enlightenment is a flowering of orgasm, an expansion of orgasm into endless full bloom in the whole body. Ramakrishna said that divine ecstasy is like innumerable yonis (female sex organs) in continual orgasm in every atom and pore of our body." As we have discussed at length here in the forum - and to "de-romanticize" it almost completely: What is really going on here is a re-direction of our standard physical biology (sexual energy, in this case) for "higher purposes" - which in this case, is very literal -- Tantric practices, and other yogic practices - redirects subtle sexual energy upwards in the subtle bodies ... which has direct neurophysiological effects in the physical body, allowing us to support the advanced processing of life energy (kundalini, shakti) throughout our system -- which will allow us to live in the expanded awareness and condition known as enlightenment. Personally, I feel that information such as that from the kalignosis site shows us how vastly important the ancients considered such information to be .... so important, that they made sure it was integrated deeply, and worldwide - in nearly every spiritual tradition. Because of communication limitations, both in terms of "broadcast ability" (most people didn't read or write, so oral tradition was "it") and security considerations (if you were teaching mystical secrets, an enemy could be standing behind a tree, or just outside a window) --- many of the teachings were conveyed via "open secrets" that appeared as one thing to the uninitiated public - and something else entirely, to spiritual initiates throughout the ancient world. Personally, I think what Jesus was saying in John 3:5 is this: To be in a position for our neurophysiology to support the yogic condition which we would call Self-Realized, a person must not only pass through sexual puberty from childhood to adolescence (symbolized as the birth of "water" - sexuality), but also through the second puberty of advanced "neuro-spiritual" yogic evolution, which many of us here are experiencing*. *Feels a lot like puberty, on certain days, don't it? The first one (sexual puberty) is basically a "freebie" - we don't have to consciously do anything to obtain it. The second one (spiritual puberty) requires awareness as an inherent part of the deal -- and so, doesn't happen "automatically" in the same way that sexual puberty appears to do. And so, I'm hoping (Doc and others) that some of the information I've referenced in this thread, may contain less HAPPY "Horse Appleage per Paragraph, Yogically-speaking" :clown_face: ) than may have originally appeared to be the case. With Kalignosis, it's not so much that I agree with the conclusions, as that I think they've done an excellent job of compiling information on, and articulating the symbolism (except where they may be projecting their own beliefs onto those symbols --- though I honestly don't know if they are, or are not - some of their tone and conclusions are egoically a bit hard to handle for me -- but I can't say I know with certainty that they're wrong, either.) And VERY briefly - but importantly: The ancient sets of symbols also tend to include the idea that we live on a Lunar plane -- where reality is reflected, rather than emanated from the source ---- so we can create on the physical plane, at our current levels of consciousness, ONLY by piecing together the building blocks of apparent reality. However, as we evolve spiritually / yogically, we realize our Self, and realize that true Solar creative energy is available within us, and that by transcending the illusions of the sensual, physical world - we can then truly create from essence - including, in many (at least a dozen or so that I could rattle off, all over the world) traditions - the idea that we can use our own consciousness to create physically. Anything (A Course in Miracles states this view nicely, "We make by projection; we create by extension") Including (what we become capable of creating) our new, true Solar body ----- or, if we happen to be incarnated as a woman this time around ----- another Solar body within us --- which might, for instance - be an appropriate physical plane "Earth-o-scope" for a living avatar of Divine Reality, such as (whether historical or symbolic / mythological) revered and beloved spiritual figures so close to our collective hearts -- such as Jesus and Krishna. And that is my (personal opinion) answer to Ether's original question. In plain English: If Mary was conscious enough - sure, she could have created Jesus' body without physical sex -- ditto any woman who is conscious enough --- though "conscious enough" means VERY highly evolved, in this case - clearly, I think. And I do feel Doc make an ultra-important point: God (whatever He / She / It / They / We / This) may actually be, is more than capable of doing things in ways that not only don't we humans understand with our "lofty" minds, but that we can't understand - at least now. We may not figure it out, with logic, reason and conjecture. We may have to just kick back and say, "Wow - if that really happened, it's a mystery - and a miracle - and I'm cool with that." Otherwise, we can Jnana-bate - and/or Jnana-Debate until the Holy Cows come home - and thus hinder our yogic progress. (And personally, I have no problem with conversations like this - I think they're kinda fun ..... I'm referring more to the idea that "I must understand rationally to believe, and if I can't - then I don't believe, and the assertion that I can't bring myself to believe is therefore false.") The road to Realization is littered with the often-reincarnating souls of sadhakas who have been dedicated to that kind of "rational pride". (And I have no clue if they're really "often reincarnating" or not -- just making a point, with that phrasing.) And (still quite importantly, or I wouldn't "ramble on" at this stage) -- as Yogani says, "there is nothing new in Yoga". The Yoga Sutras (specifically I.30) has a list of nine impediments which prevent us from progress as sadhakas, and one of them is bhranti-darshana - "confusion of philosophies" - which is described in part as "viewing a fact as a non-fact", and where the mind has become settled on this issue, and "has taken a side that is in error". That's why any belief can be SO dangerous - we are pre-judging (engaging in "prejudice") -- with consciousness that is yet at a very, very limited level. Four year old kids are awesome -- but would you really want one of them doing your taxes? :wink: Peace, Namaste & Hari OM, Kirtanman PS - I had intending to post an "ancient reptilian aliens" link that was at least somewhat totally whacked-out than the one I did post, way-too-early this morning ....... so here's a much better one (context being: there are gnostic teachings which equate amphibious, reptilian aliens with certain global myths - i.e. the snake in the garden of Eden) --- so, even though this post veered "way far away" from anything connected with that --- here's the link: http://www.crystalinks.com/ancientastronauts.html
Kirtanman:
Is there any way you could shorten your posts? it’s more interesting to read an exchange of ideas. Your posts are good and knowledgable, but several times I close the window before I finish reading them.
PS Good link. I love weird things.
I think that’s pretty interesting, actually, and I didn’t know that over 70 species of reptiles have this ability. Who’s to say what is and isn’t possible? I think you have a healthy attitude, Etherfish, and I feel that my views also change, as I grow as a person. It’s important to remain open-minded. It’s when we think we know it all - that God humbles us the most, and I’m tired of being humbled: 
LOL.
And I would have to agree that it was Christ’s Teachings that are important, not the miracles he performed:
Great post, Kirtman. A little long [ahem, that’s an understatement, LOL]: But, a wealth of information to glean. I guess we have a lot in common… we both think that we’re funny. LOL. That was a joke.: 
VIL
Hi Ether,
Nope.
Peace & Namaste,
Kirtanman
PS - Totally kidding, of course ---- and yes; I can. This has come up before – and it is a challenge for me (obviously! ) – but I also don’t want to hit a point of “diminishing returns” by having people stop reading due to post length. It’s just a matter of finding a good and workable balance between authentic writing style, conveying pertinent info / anecdotes – and keeping things at a decent length.
I will gladly do “all of the above”, though – and I very sincerely appreciate you mentioning it (if it’s gotten to the point where people are mentioning it again – I know I need to take a look at it. - and am happy to do so). Despite the fact that even this response is longer than it needs to be … (hey, “Awareness is 90% of the battle”, yes? )
PPS - Glad you liked the link; you’re welcome! I was amazed how deep that whole thing (alien lizard mythology) runs, and how pervasive a part of ancient mythology it is; I’d never heard of it, until a few months ago! Jeez, maybe our friends the Komodo dragons are more evolved than we realized …
a little info i want to add here regarding Tantra
all of the traditions describes the knowledge in the form of symbols, thats true and its difficult for a common person to understand, unless someone decodes or translate it to native language to the outerworld like “AYP Tantra”.
These type of work is done and being done in various places or parts of the world.
one of them is where i learn Kundalini Yoga. They emphasize Tantra as essential part and its described with excellent practical implementations balancing the spiritual development as well as family life.
different lessons or techniques are given directly in person for youngsters, married peoples, womens etc.
I think the chemistry of sperm is vast. Its an intelligent cell. when used with techniques like kaya kalpa it rejuvinates the entire body.
why such symbolic languages are used? it can be thought in different angles including the huge language difference at that time or the perfectness etc etc. open mind is very important in any type of learning by inquiring or exploring and taking the positive points, but the inquiring should not be exploited or used as a tool for degrading the teachings of great spiritual giants like Jesus Christ.
Edited Note:
since this thread is divided, which is good decision by Yogani. some of my message is part of another category “Other Systems of Spiritual Practice”. http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1848 i have colored the text for differentiation. thanx.
Hi All:
Please do continue this interesting discussion on Immaculate Conception and Tantra here, and the discussion on Kabbalah, Gnosticism and Christianity (which has just been split off) over here: http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1848
Admittedly, there is some overlap, but I know everyone will do their best to maintain the appropriate distinctions between topics … and civility, of course.
The guru is in you.
Kritanman,
It’s just a matter of finding a good and workable balance between authentic writing style, conveying pertinent info / anecdotes – and keeping things at a decent length.
Another thing you can keep in mind is that you can post again. Often it’s best to make one point, one contribution to the conversation, and keep your others for your next post on the same topic.
There is a saying ‘less is more’; it’s a very important saying in any creative endeavor such as art and writing. If you really get the saying, really feel it, you’ll realize that you are adding by cutting the posts down. Highlight-and-erase will become a creative act and you will feel it.
And your posts will be read more, guaranteed.
Hey David,
Thanks for that - “heard and appreciated”, very sincerely.
And I “grok” (“get”, “resonate with”) what you’re saying about the related energy of it all - I’ve historically just had a difficult time understanding this energy dynamic as it applies to my use of words in both writing and speaking.
I’m beginning to though - and your comments are a helpful “nudge” in the right direction.
So, like, Thanks!
Yogically, focus of energy is a big deal – the Dhyana (Meditation) limb of Ashtanga translates directly as “focus” or “concentration”.
As the saying goes - all light is good, but you can do more things with a laser beam, than with a flashlight.
Peace & Namaste,
Kirtanman
PS - Thanks for the (presumably) unintentional props, via the typo in your salutation — “Kritanman” translates (in Sanskrit, if not phonetic English … ) as “Completed” Man, or the Man who is “Done” (with the yogic path) – as in: Krita Yuga (Age of Completion - which a cycle of ages starts with - because completion is our natural state, prior to descent into the material universe, and all this illusory brick-a-brack … )
I have to thank Kirtanman for the wonderful posts!!! I am completely amazed that there is another being on the planet that uses the same ludicrously large amount of punctuation that I do!~!!! It’s incredible (maybe not for all but definitely for me!) that at such a high vibration all these things still come out. It’s a grand read and I’m taking this as a lovely christmans pressie! I will also check Adayshanti (have the latest sounds true release but haven’t listened yet) and hoping his voice isn’t like richard freemans. Ouch, judgemental or what (bad me). Deep peace to all.
Hi Kirtanman,
You’ve done it already, and I read you post through and through. the last and shortest one… clarifying in case there’s any inadvertant confusion.
Hi Yoginiannie & Sadhak,
Thanks to both of you for the kind words!
More Soon – Peace & Namaste,
Kirtanman