Hindus versus Tibetan awakening

[Anthem]

@emc

This resonates with me! What is the effect on the thinking mind when you do that? Mine acts like a disappointed child, gets grumpy and turns away, knowing it has “lost” the game, and has no power left and as a result gets more silent.

Hi EMC,
I don’t detect anything emotionally in my mind, just a falling away of the thought, a letting go. If anything, the emotional “ripple” is there with the thought to begin with and as I bring awareness to it, the emotional flicker fades away. The abiding silence then remains unabscured as my attention is no longer pulled away in absorption into the thought(s). <- I would call this phenomena “reverse meditation”.

[Sparkle (Louis)]

Emc, I had actually written two replies to this, just after you posted. On the first I hit Ctrl and something else by accident and lost it. The second was a longer post and when I sent it the message came up Service not Available. So I tried, but it wasn’t to be
Emc said:

[quote]
“Funny I found this question after a major weird meta-thought experience. Yesterday I was just getting on my train, stepping in to the door to the right, when I thought “I no longer believe my thoughts”. What happened then was exactly what you describe: I immediately took like a “jump” to the side while the thought was still hanging like a stripe in the air - observing both the thinking process and the thought as something completely “NOT ME”, like an object. I was aware of the body, face actually sort of frowning and making a very slight attempt to look to the left as if the thought was still hanging outside of the train while I had boarded. It was very, very clear how believing the thought “I no longer believe my thoughts” and telling it to myself as a story I learned from Byron Katie, repeating it as a parrot, was a non-valid mind construction with the purpose of trying to hold an image of ‘doing the right thing’, while observing the thinking happening was very… authentic. Very weird meta-experience to actually then not believe that particular thought!
[/quote] ”
Thanks for the great reply Andrew; I will try and respond to the two posts together.
Andrew said:

“So from my perspective, there is awareness, thoughts float into it, if they possess a strong enough emotional charge, I can become absorbed in them and experience them visually like a mini-dream. Otherwise, there can be long periods of silence, which allows the direct experience of life without commentary through the senses. With less distraction into thoughts, (thoughts are still there, just not powerful enough to attract attention into becoming absorbed into them), more light pervades the mind, peace, good feelings etc.”

I like this explanation Andrew, when I attempt to understand it, I refer back to an awakening experience I had where I came out of a bubble or sphere of logic and analysis and thinking and entered a space which was free of this, and correspondingly free of all pain. I could re-enter the sphere anytime but was not bound by it.
I’ve been trying to make sense of all this in relation to what’s going on now and what has transpired since the experience, which was a long time ago. To cut a long story short the experience was had without clearing the lower chakras, in other words the spirituality was upper body from heart up.
Since then my journey has been to bring the energy up and clear with the feminine energies. This has only fallen into place for me recently. But that’s by and by.
After posing the question above a few thought came: I thought of the question “What is the origin of a creative idea”. One that simply pops into the head, seemingly out of nowhere.
To me it comes from the intelligence that is in the silence, this all pervading intelligence that permeates everything all the time. So that when we observe a thought we are observing it out of this intelligence which is a difference space than the thinking mind. It may seem like thinking and maybe it manifests as a form of thinking but it is a place of freedom also.
I remember this vividly in that experience I had of being able to comprehend and observe the thinking mind but not be part of it. I remember being in the moment, but at that time I had never heard of such a thing.
It is fascinating to me Emc that you observed the thought as hanging outside to the left. It occurred to me that the silent intelligence is translated through the Right Creative Brain, it has to manifest physically somewhere so we can experience it.
So your experiencing it hanging out to the left seems like you might have been observing the left hand thinking mind with the right hand creative mind.
Just a thought!!!
Andrew said:
“I find that the AYP practices move us slowly out of our minds and into our hearts and senses. The practices help release energy from thoughts until the point where they are no longer charged enough to pull attention away from here and now. This energy comes to pervade the here and now, enlivening the direct experience of inner silence and making our experience of life more vivid and illuminated.”
Yes and it does this in a full body way that clears everything in a gradual and balanced way.
The pieces are coming together for me, where I can understand that awakening experience I had in relation to what is going on here with the AYP practices and before that also, which is important for me.
I have some way to go to get into that space again but it is coming together at last
Thats my 2 cents
Thanks you for making it that bit clearer.
Louis

[selfonlypath (Albert)]

Dzogchen tibetan schools say: there is the mind and the NATURE of the mind. One need to be introduced to the nature of the mind then learn progressively to maintain this awareness into dream state then wake state. All this has to do with having a non-duality awareness while having the human experience on earth.
Albert

[Suryakant]

@selfonlypath

All this has to do with having a non-duality awareness while having the human experience on earth.

THE DOUBLE-CONSCIOUSNESS OF A JIVANMUKTA

[yogibear]

Hi Yogani,
There is only One. Yet, perceptions change within the One as our vehicle of awareness (the nervous system) purifies and opens. During this process, the witness is first noticed as static, and later on as dynamic, within and synonymous with all that is happening – stillness in action. Paradox … and more…
Rope and snake.
The Silent Self is both the noise and is untouched by the noise. It is perception without identification…
Radical Non-Dualism.

I am over and above you.
I am under and beneath you.
I surround you on all sides.
I am within you and you are in me.
From me you proceed and within me you live move and have your being.
If and when you will adopt and live according to this truth, then and only then will you be able to manifest that truth.
In and by it alone, are true and real presense and power to be found, perceived, realized and manifested.
William Walker Atkinson a.k.a. Yogi Ramacharaka

I like this quote. Just thought I would throw it in.
The going out and coming back is the journey from pre-witnessing to witnessing, to discrimination, to dispassion, to outpouring divine love, to unity/Oneness. It is a journey from here to here. No place to go.
OK.
The word “realization” conveys what it is. Effective meditation is the primary means for cultivating realization. Samyama and self-inquiry move and reveal living stillness.
OK.
Silent Self is not primarily a mental habit. It is a whole body neurobiological awakening. This is why self-inquiry cannot do it alone, except in rare cases.
Ok.
The energy techniques (pranayama, mudras, bandhas, tantra, etc.) give wings to stillness, facilitating realization of the dynamic nature of Silent Self. This is the natural role of kundalini – the ecstatic radiation of Silent Self from within us.
The causeless cause and its creative energy are one and the same. Not two.
The new Self-Inquiry book attempts to present all of this in a practical, usable way. I’m not sure if it succeeds. Let me know.
OK. I look forward to reading it.
The guru is in you.
Thanks again, yb.

[selfonlypath (Albert)]

One of the best biggest kick in my ass I got and really challenged the ego dissolution process I’m going through was by slightly realizing the deep truth of what an alchimist friend told me back in 2004: TOE standing for Theory Of Everything.
This has to do with non-duality awareness along with realizing any path or system will take us ultimately to self-realization. Any method will just provide a purification vehicle so one can jump safely into non-duality awareness while still living on earth.
The safety comes from a mixture of correct speed and karma dissolving efficiency for a given individual along with being blessed to attract the best method for us which might not be the best method for someone else.
The major problem is attaching to the awakening method which is just a story telling: the Mind trying to describe the Nature of the Mind experience. Ego trying to describe the method to dissolve ego which is a trap preventing Self-Realization. A catch 22 situation that only a few authentic masters have resolved.
For example, authentic shamanism is just an anthropomorphizing of the experience and one should be careful to first fully integrate the culture who create this cosmology (i.e. Ayahuasca and serpents are both commonly found in amazonia but not in cities) otherwise this might become a hell or a quick path to a mental hospital.
Albert

[yogibear]

Hi emc,

emc worte:
“Who is cultivating it?”
Yogibear, this question was what triggered this post in me, it was driving me crazy(!):
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....OPIC_ID=3148
So I’m so glad to see Yogani’s response here:
“There is only One. Yet, perceptions change within the One as our vehicle of awareness (the nervous system) purifies and opens.”
Different perceptions in different vehicles of awareness… Beautiful!

Thanks for the link, emc.
Have a great day, yb.

[hopeless_meditator (Sue Bell)]

@tallis

Exactly: I’ve read the same thing in numerous Indian/Hindu sources regarding sushumna corresponding to the central canal of the spinal cord.
Recently I’ve been reading about Tibetan practices in The Bliss of Inner Fire by Lama Yeshe and Clear Light of Bliss by Geshe Kelsang Gyatso. (By the way, thanks, Kadak, for refering to the latter in your earlier post - it’s a great book.) In both works it’s clearly stated that the central channel is located in front of but does not touch the spinal column. According to Tibetan practice, what is the role of sushumna then?
I have two more questions:
(1) Both books clearly state that the central channel moves up through the body to the throat chakra, then the crown chakra and then follows the skull forward to the third eye. This also diverges from the AYP perspective of sushumna. (It seems more closely related to the kriya version of spinal breathing that I know of.) What is going on here?
(2) Tibetan practices of Tummo also rely on the left and right channels. These seem to correspond to ida and pingala, especially in that when the two side channels are operative the central channel is dormant and vice versa. The left and right channels, however, do not criss-cross from side to side of the body as they pass each chakra, in the way that ida and pingala do. They wrap around each chakra, forming a knot, but (unless I am mistaken) the right channel always remains on the right side of the body, whereas the left channel remains always on the left.
Can anyone clear up these issues?
Thanks!

Does anyone know whether the left and right channels can become reversed? If so, under what circs , and what would be the reasons for this?

[yogibear]

Hi emc,
Thanks again for the great link.

emc wrote:
Who is waking up?
Not the mind, since the mind can NEVER wake up, it’s not designed for that.
Not the body, since body and mind are compatible and the very same.
Not the ONE universal consciuosness that is eternally aware and enlightened allready.
Who is waking up? Who is making the choice to continue with practices? Who has the choice to stay true or fall asleep again? Some kind of “individual consciousness” that is widening until it reaches a state of eternal oneness. But who is it? Who am “I” that is still believing the stories of my mind? Who is getting rid of the mud? That’s what’s baking my noodles at the moment.

yb wrote:
Who is cultivating it?

For me emc, the answer to both questions is quite simple: I am. And I am me.
Maybe it is just laziness on my part.
Have a great day, yb.

[emc]

You’re welcome, Yogibear!
I have come to the conclusion that I stay with the question “Who am I?” and don’t even try to find an answer. The important thing is to keep questioning the Unknown.