I’m interested in the role grace plays in Yoga. I’m talking about grace of God. No matter how much i meditate or do pranayama practices i do not experience bliss, inner sounds or inner lights. At most all i get is a slight feeling of relaxation. So how does someone get God’s grace? Why should i keep up at this game if the biggest ingredient (God’s grace) is not there?
A question: how do you offer devotion to God and have no expectations at the same time?
In spinal breathing, it seems awkward or wishy washy tracing the spinal nerve - it feels like i am seeing it in my mind along with feeling it as if i am looking through my left eye - and the eyes always go downwards when i get near the bottom of the spine AND the bottom is not the perineum, it is much higher up.
When i breathe in it takes about 2 seconds. This doesn’t seem long enough to trace the spinal nerve. How does the breathing depth increase?
Do brainwave entrainment technologies actually work?
How do yogis slow their hearts? Please give detailed explanation.
I have heard of many people with bodies that are in bad shape have spiritual experiences. I even met a guy who was a strong alcoholic who started meditating and was able to give up the booze and had spiritual experiences even while drinking. I must be doing something wrong, because even though i enjoy a little drink i have been meditating for a long time and haven’t experienced ANYTHING.
James Randi did a study on Transcendental Meditation and concluded that it is virtually indistinguishable from taking a nap. He said subjects exposed to soothing music got the same benefits as long term meditators. The level of relaxation was virtually the same in both types. Why meditate then?
I found a post by some guy on a web forum for OBEs wherein he said he had been trying for 40 years to induce an OBE without success. And he was someone who helped Monroe write his books!
In conclusion, it seems to me that there is nothing more involved with meditation experiences than the placebo effect or God’s grace or the different make-ups of people’s brains. If you BELIEVE meditation works, it tends to work. If you test it with the ordinary sense of experimentation and scepticism at the start and consequently experience nothing of report, it was because you didn’t believe it would work and therefore there is no placebo effect.
Regarding seeing the spiritual eye: the only people in the world that report this experience are some people on this forum and the Yogananda forums. I have spoken to 100’s of people who are otherwise spiritual and they know nothing of the spiritual eye. Even people who have Near-Death Experiences do not describe the spiritual eye but an altogether different phenomena.
Regarding inner sounds such as OM: i see no reason why this is simply not physiological phenomena such as tinnitus. Hearing “bell” sounds is a slightly different manifestation of tinnitus.
Regarding reduced metabolism from yoga practices - in pretty much most of the studies done on meditation in the lab, the rate of metabolism in meditation when subjects report being in the meditative state is the same rate of metabolism as people in sleep. Breathing slows and sometimes pauses up to 20 seconds at a time, which makes 2 breaths per minute consumed. There is a slight lowering of heart rate but nothing considerably significant. In my own experience of meditation my breath will slow and pause, sometimes for 20 seconds at a time, but there is no perceptible change in heart rate. So how can it be that some people, on this forum included, can say that a yogic breathless state can last for several minutes at a time or even for hours? Why do some people say meditation has lowered their resting pulse considerably? Might there not be other factors involved here, such as regular strenuous exercise and change of diet?
And what about the claims for meditation made by Paramahansa Yogananda? With his hong sau technique he says that the breath stops which makes the heart calm which switches the senses off (pratyahara) which equals samadhi or the thoughtless state. If you fast and eat no meat but just fruits and vegetable, the venous blood is reduced which calms the heart and switches the senses off. Then, when you do Kriya yoga pranayama (spinal breathing), the practice of continuously oxygenating the blood burns out all the carbon in the blood in time and the heart is totally calmed, rendering a breathless state. What is the truth in all this?
Regarding spinal breathing and the breathless state - when you are performing the breathing prescribed you are doing it with force and deliberately. So how then would a spontaneous breathless state occur by itself through this practice? Please give the detailed explanation.
What exactly is kundalini? The explanations i have come across on this website are not satisfactory enough. Sometimes it is sexual fluid, sometimes it is cerebrospinal fluid, sometimes it is astral body. But more importantly the people on this website that claim to have kundalini experiences do not seem to me to be more highly evolved than an average person. There is no increase in IQ, physical power, generation of creative ideas, monetary success, overcoming of sex, control over bad habits, better morality and so on. How do these people even know if what they are experiencing is kundalini or not?
And lastly, i am struck by the apparent absence of scepticism on this forum. While we are asked by yoga teachers to approach yoga with slight scepticism and to test out the methods first without needing faith or beleif and then finding the promised results there seems to be a conspicuous abundance of absence of people posting on this forum raising issues such as the ones i have above. Why? If the said experiences are not there (and they certainly aren’t for me and i imagine not for others also) where are the people coming and complaining? Where are the questions? Do people find this website, see the words “spinal breathing” and not even begin to think it might be a bit hokum? After all, the spine doesn’t breathe does it? Where are the people that use these methods and not experiencing much? Am i to believe that everyone who finds this website simply has a lack of scepticism? That they don’t even question some of the things here? Why doesn’t anybody question the existence of prana for a start? Prana is something that hasn’t been measured or detected by science, yet science has uncovered mostly every other type of energy there is, down to the smallest of biological mechanisms.
There are apparently eminent yogis who claim to be able to go into samadhi who don’t seem to know that kirlian photography doesn’t prove the existence of prana. Yet they write about it and state it does. But this is not the opinion of real science. Am i to conclude that samadhi really doesn’t convey much, especially if the yogis that enter it come back and tell us pseudoscience is science? What happened to omniscience?
Where is the proof that people levitate? People sometimes post messages on here saying that they hop. If you really do hop, and you aren’t deliberately bouncing on a foam mat, please show us the evidence. Why aren’t you world famous? Why aren’t you on the news? All you need to do is post a video on Youtube with witnesses. You could come and meet me if you don’t want “fame” and demonstrate it to me. I would pay a lot of money to actually see this.
How about other claims? Like hair moving by itself. Like people spontaneously moving around and adopting various different physical positions, which they claim are beyond their control. Where is the evidence? Where is the evidence that looking at a picture of a yogi is “shaktipat”? Point me to a shaktipat photo on the internet and let’s see if it works for me. I am not a bad person; i want some sort of proof of it. I have seen various saints and yogis photos and films but where is the shaktipat? I need some evidence and i don’t understand how there can be no people coming to this website questioning all these things.
Speaking only for myself, I have looked briefly into many of the subjects you mention.
I have brought with me the skepticism of a scientist and have even become so cynical at religious rantings that for a time I became an atheist.
Yoga is not about doing tricks with the heart, but rather about using an ancient technology involving the nervous system to explore what becoming fully Human can mean for each of us, and perhaps for all of us eventually.
For Yogani’s perspective, you might want to scan the chapter headings of the main lessons he gives online at AYPsite.org. I’m quite certain genuine curiosity will be rewarded amply.
Does life or prana exist? Yes. Has anyone figured out how to measure it so as to satisfy skeptics as to its reality? No. But many people have found yogic descriptions or roadmaps of reality and what happens to people when they do yogic practice to be personally useful and most instructive.
If you are already a “materialist” through and through, as if 21st century intellectual rigor is possible only for people adhering to that point of view, then all your explorations are pointless.
Perhaps it is time for you to experiment with a new point of view. Do you lose a thing by trying?
I suggest you read Eknath Easwaran. First try his translation of the Upanishads (I enjoy the Katha right now), then try his book Climbing the Blue Mountain. I have found beauty in both books. Buy them online at Amazon.com or Half.com. They will counter your materialism by offering a coherent alternative.
Perhaps the way you are living currently is insufficiently satisfying? Please consider leaving your current comfort zone and risk a little, if your purpose is a serious quest for identity.
newpov
I have, of course, read the lessons here. I wasn’t satisfied. If i was i wouldn’t have posted this thread in the first place.
I an intrigued at your use of the word “trick” when describing the heart. As far as i understood the yoga teachings, calming the heart has nothing to do with “tricks”, and it should be explained properly, which i have failed to see so far. In fact, lots of yoga teachings say that when the heart is completely calm that is the state of samadhi.
You say prana exists unequivocally. Again, this is not good enough. You might believe it does but without any kind of evidence that is just a blind belief without substance. I’m not really interested in ancient yogic texts that claim it exists. One of the most eminent philosophers of our age has said that vitalism is dead, not to mention tons of biologists. Another point is this - people are not born with any awareness or feeling of prana at all, it is only people that do yoga or something similar who claim to be able to “feel” it. Hence it seems clear enough that it is contrived and not natural.
I don’t really understand why you said i am a materialist and not satisfied with my current way of life. I am not a materialist in terms of thinking that matter is all there is and there isn’t anything beyond it. Every point i have raised here and every question has not gotten an answer yet. I will wait until more replies come in. When i am satisfied that nobody can answer my questions i will probably become a materialist. I don’t feel as if i need to change my way of life in some manner that is risky.
Hi Gumpi,
I’m a little short on time so I’ll try to post later and reflect on your questions in the mean time.
It might be helpful to know your background and practice history so if you don’t mind please share it.
[quote=“gumpi”]
When i am satisfied that nobody can answer my questions i will probably become a materialist.
[/quote]Is matter real?
gumpi,
You raised so many issues, too many to be considered at once. Which issue of all that you have touched upon do you consider most personally pressing at this time?
Also, can you say a little about what seems to be blocking or frustrating you?
newpov
You asked me, “is matter real?”
My only response to that is that if it isn’t real, why do you need to ask me that?
Gumpi, I can hear the frustration coming through your posts and I hope you will be able to find the answers that you seek. You are frustrated, welll let it out my friend. Go buy yourself a punching bag if you need to. The hard thing about scientific proof is the unknown variable. Things can react differently when being observed. I was once at yoga class and the lady said “he’s here” two seconds later the instructor comes around the corner. There were no mirrors and there were many people walking around and talking. I asked her how she knew that and she just siad “I felt him” For me I dont hold modern science in high regard especially when it comes to spiritual practice. The unknown variable cannot be explained, it is the biggest mystery in the history of mankind. Until the unknown variable/God can be scientifically explained (which will not happen), I will just follow my heart/God.
a swami once said, you cannot find god with the mind, if you try your search will be in vain, god can only be understood from the heart.
I hope and pray you find what you seek
my best to you
Neil
Hi Gumpi,
An interesting video by brain scientist Jill Bolte Taylor who experienced and recovered from a stroke that debilitated the left hemisphere of her brain.
Food for thought for any materialist-or-not 
http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/jill_bolte_taylor_s_powerful_stroke_of_insight.html
Love and Light,
Steve
namaste friends,
too many questions and frustration hope you can find what eases your mind dear gumpi.
and if i may add my opinion, you remind me a lot of a story that the buddha told about a warrior in the midst of battle who got hit by an arrow and then when people came to take the arrow out he started askind who shot me who threw the arrow… instead of just pulling the arrow.
now the matter of the thing is and i am speaking for myself here and not forcing my opinions on anyone.
yoga and spiritual practices just do work and they give very beautiful results and i don’t care if prana is real or not or if i’m hallucinating my existance or dreaming it or not it’s just there and whatever seems worth while trying that have a possibility to bring into fruitation smthg nice and beneficial i’ll go for it.
you just need to take the arrow out and go with the flow don’t give it too much thinking and if it frustrates you that much just leave it be and go do what makes happy.
kindest regards,
Ananda
[quote=“gumpi”]
You asked me, “is matter real?”
My only response to that is that if it isn’t real, why do you need to ask me that?
[/quote]I know what my private answer to that question is. I invite you to ponder your own.
gumpi
I have learnt from Gopi’s books, that when one is very dirty she rejects us, till she makes the cleanse, and it can take many years ahead, and sometimes it can be fatal if she cannot do the cleansing. One does not play with Shakti, as she works inside our bodies. One has to have too much love and pureness to work with her.
In my opinion she is proving you, you have to learn to be patient, otherwise she can rejects you by not making you feel anything.
gumpi !!!
what neli says makes perfect sense to me.
Bear with me now…
You wrote, [quote]
because even though i enjoy a little drink
i have been meditating for a long time
and haven’t experienced ANYTHING.
[/quote]
a LITTLE drink?
Maybe you have elevated your choice for pleasure over your choice for the good. From Easwaran’s translation of the Katha Upanishad:
Hi Gumpi,
The path we are on… has it’s ups and downs. You are going through a low phase and it’s hard to remember all the positive experiences when one is in a down phase. It happens to all of us. But please remember its just a phase and “this too shall pass”. The more you bring up questions, the more you keep you mind in place. And you know from your years of practice… you can never get the mind with your mind.
I have gone through some of your positive experiences and am posting them. You have come a long way since your first post at the forum… and even if you don’t see it right now… give it a few days (for this phase to pass)… and you will see it for yourself.
Here are some of your own quotes. Please see if these help. They answer many of the questions you have asked. There are many more. Just do a search on your name.
When i said i have a little drink i mean i have a few cans every night. I don’t drink at any other times. I wouldn’t call myself an alcoholic but more likely a problem drinker.
Shanti, yes it is true that all those things i posted before seem to indicate some type of progress. However, i guess i am not much for the “joy” game - i prefer pleasure. When people talk about getting blissed out on meditation i don’t understand what they mean by that because certainly i have never felt any such thing. I have felt incredible highs from marijuana and they just don’t compare with meditation i’m afriad. Meditation is interesting, don’t get me wrong, but it cannot deliver the goods for me.
The last post you quoted me about Neuroprogrammer - this program actually does work. I have felt definite effects with it that i cannot deny. However, one of the original makers of that program told me that it doesn’t really give people spiritual experiences, it just helps people with various problems get back to “normal”. I am inclined to believe it does help with spiritual experiences also. it is just that i have lots of problems myself at the moment that need correcting.
I do have lows because as i stated originally, God doesn’t seem tangible to me at all in terms of bliss, light and sound. I have been wanting any of those experiences for a very long time and they simply haven’t happened. I just don’t know what i am doing wrong here. How do people have devotion to God and no expectations at the same time? I can’t get my head around that.
Interesting question. I think it is when we find that all the other places we look for happiness in life (drugs, alcohol, approval from others, fame, money, etc.) just can’t deliver without undesirable side-effects. There are no highs in life without the lows, it isn’t possible to extract the positive from duality and leave behind the negative, it is a package deal.
So when we are done playing the game and realize that true happiness can’t be found “out there” we start to look within for our answers. We become devoted to finding something more, something other than the highs and lows in life which eventually all lose their appeal. Hence we become devoted to a higher ideal, God, truth, reality, oneness, Jesus, Krishna etc. whatever calls us and then we make our way home and find what we have been looking for.
It is key to remember that it takes time and consistent daily effort if we want to arrive as quickly as possible to counter the many years of effort we have made in opposite directions.
Best of luck on our path! 
Dearest Gumpi,
It sounds a bit to me like you are frustrated and looking for a bit of an arguement. There ARE tangible effects to a practice of twice daily AYP meditations. You yourself have said this as quoted by Shanti. It is hard somedays because one day you may feel so terrific after meditation and the next may be completely different. This can be frustrating, but part of self realization is coming to grips with the fact that you absolutely have to favor the practice over the scenery/tangible experiences. I would be very curious to know what your DAILY practices consist of and whether or not they truely are daily. Especially twice daily. ( And I did notice that you refused to answer the question about what your daily practices actually consist of thus far…)You have said many times that you have been practicing for 7 years ON and OFF, and I am curious to know what that means in terms of “tangible” practice. Meditating once every two days will not give you the desired results especially if you are a “problem drinker” as you have admitted you are. I am the person newpov was mentioning, the methadone addict, and if you know anything about drugs, getting off of methadone makes getting off of alcohol look like a piece of cake. (really NOT trying to downplay the difficulties of alcoholics just stating the PHYSICAL difference between withdrawing from methadone compared to alcohol) And I have in the course of 1 month now, dropped my 3 year perscribed dose of 90mg’s daily down to 30mg’s every 36 hours supplimenting ONLY with 5 minutes of spinal breathing pranayama and 20 minutes of deep meditation twice daily. (any more then 5 minutes of SBP makes me overheat to like 103degrees, and I can’t handle that when trying to meditate. More tangible evidence of actual effects from meditation and SBP) And I just started AYP at the beginning of July after only about 6 months of Kriya Yoga (through the S.R.F) instructions. (which incidentally did nothing in the way of helping me get off of methadone) When I told my doctor the other day I wanted to change my perscription from 90mg’s to 30 mg’s the doctor accused me of selling my methadone doses and threatened to call the police on me because in reality I SHOULD BE UNABLE TO WALK, TALK, OR DO ANYTHING BESIDES LAY IN FETAL POSITION PUKING UP BILE AND DRY HEAVING. I have NONE of the symptoms of methadone withdrawl that I should be experiencing and my DOCTOR cannot believe it. If this is not “tangible evidence” I don’t know if there is ANYTHING besides your OWN tangible experiences that could make you believe in the fruits of the daily meditative practices. And if you are not practicing religiously you will not experience these effects. So before you poo-poo on the AYPractices for not giving you enough “scenery” to inspire you to continue, I suggest you give it one last try. A real college effort too. Because until you do you are just speaking theoretically. It’s really the chicken or the egg type of thing you are dealing with here. You want the evidence of the friuts of meditation but are not willing to accept anothers account as verifiable, yet you aren’t willing to go through the proper effort required to make the connection personally that will give you the evidence you look for. None of us can convince you or anyone else of the effects of AYP, only your own personal practice can do that. And that is why there is a real lack of “questioning” on this forum. Because the majority of the people posting on here have been trying the practice religiously and long enough to be able to see our own tangible evidence of improvements in our daily lives just the way Yogani said it would happen. Reading the lessons does not give you proof. Asking others and even watching it on YouTube does not give you proof. (people fake video’s all the time) ONLY your own personal practice will be able to prove to you that AYP works. And I doubt you’ve given it the fair chance that you say you have. If you had, we can all gaurantee that you wouldn’t feel this way. All the best Gumpi. Hope you find what you are looking for.
Namaste,
CarsonZi
P.S. I just read the bottom part of your last quote quoted by Shanti on marijuana and it’s inability to mesh with a spiritual lifestyle, and I have to say that I think in the beginning stages of a spiritual lifestyle marijuana can be plenty helpful for some people. I have smoked weed daily for over 15 years now, (about an 1/8oz to a 1/4oz everyday) and although my consumption in the past two months since I started regular AYPractices have dramatically decreased down to only about 3 joints a day, it most certainly DOES NOT hinder my spirituality and especially doesn’t hinder my ability to do SBP or DM. It often helps me infact. especially if I am trying to meditate through some minor methadone withdrawls around hour 36 after last taking my dose. It can calm me down, help me relax, and aid an otherwise overly-energetic person to sit still for half an hour twice a day and not think. Don’t write off everything so generally. There is a time and a place for everything, and although you may not see it, it exists. Just like the benefits of AYP.
CarsonZi
gumpi,
Doing things without being personally attached to the outcomes or results…
Doing ones practice, even if scenery or other gratification doesn’t come on schedule…
Revelation 22:12, “Look, I am coming soon, and my reward is with me, to repay everyone as his deeds deserve”
Has drinking a few cans every night become a pattern that you have no DESIRE to break?
Perhaps you have some choices to make…
If you continue doing something even as you are aware that there are negative consequences, then that is addiction.
Why not stop drinking for a few months and see what happens with your AYP practice?
If you can’t or won’t do this, what does this say about the reality of addiction in your life?
What does this say about your failure to subordinate the pleasurable to the good?
Maybe the scripture is right…you are getting no more and no less than you DESERVE.
newpov
Hi Gumpi,
This is the Master Formula of Attainment from The Personal Power Series of books by William Walker Atkinson.
- Know exactly what you want
- Want it bad enough
- Confidently expect to obtain it
- Persistantly determine to obtain it
- Be willing to pay the price
In your case, #5 is less beer. Well, it is a good yardstick to measure yourself within any field of endeavour. I find it helpful and thought you might, too.
The prime lifestyle dictum for success in Yogic endeavour is to “live moderately.”
One beer might be moderate.
CarsonZi, you put it in a nutshell. More power to you attaining freedom from drugs.
Gumpi, let me suggest you give a thousand one more tries.
“A thousand times to fall and a thousand times to rise.”
Make twice daily meditation the cornerstone of your life and maintain a continuous gentle pressure moving in that direction, no matter what.
Eventually, you will perform enough karmas and gain direct experience for yourself. Then you won’t question so much. Once you are infected by the yoga virus of direct experience, it is incurable. It can’t be helped.
And more power to you, Gumpi.
Best wishes, yb.