So we agree!
Tantra speeds it up so it can be done in one lifetime!
P.S. Mahamudra is by definition tantric. It only exists in the tantra literature…
Some people need Tantra to progress to Buddhahood in one lifetime. However, others don’t, and can attain Buddhahood with just View Practice Action. Your question was whether Tantric practice was required. It is not required.
Mahamudra is not tantra, just like Dzogchen is not tantra. These belong to the Upadesha tradition of Anu and Ati Yoga. Tantras are a different set of documents and practices.
This is my understanding:
Ninth bhumi stage bodhisattvas can achieve Buddhahood without working with the energy body, but even THEY require a tantric-style empowerment. This is even according to sutra.
Another situation is that one in a million can achieve Buddhahood simply by going through the fourth tantric empowerment.
Most people do not achieve Buddhahood on the fourth tantric empowerment, so you must rely on the two stages of Mahamudra, which involves dealing with the human energy body.
So for 99% of the situations, you need to work with the energy body (I am not including bardo/death practices. And even most bardo practices, like phowa, require working with the energy body lolll).
Mahamudra does not exist in the sutra class of literature. Kagyus purposely invented a “sutra mahamudra” for inferior students but this is not authentic. I tried to explain this to you before over email.
Mahamudra is really about the two stages (energy body practice), not this zen like pondering about the nature of the mind all the time.
P.S. Of course Dzogchen is tantric because it involves working with channels in the human body like the kati channels.
Your problem is that you don’t understand the zen like pondering about the nature of mind all the time, and until you do the energy body work will never be taught to you. You have no idea what Mahamudra is about, because a Kagyu lama has not shown you and you don’t practice it. If you tried to practice it on your own without steadiness in The View Practice Action, you will practice energy body work for your entire life and nothing would happen, other than you might injure yourself.
Your comment trivializing the nature of mind as a practice and emphasizing the auxiliary practices of Six Yogas shows how clueless you are what the Vajrayana path is about. Emptiness, Mahamudra, Trekchod are the important Buddhist practices. Togal, Six Yogas and the like are secondary, auxiliary and unnecessary over all.
There is a continuity and a self-similarity of teachings from the Hiniyana path to the Vajrayana path. You need to look at this more carefully and your understanding of the secondary practices will begin to make sense. At least you will understand the Buddha’s teachings and you will realize that the Buddha did not teach methods that would not work. LOL.
Basically, until you enter the path of nondiscrimination you are going to continue to chase your tail.
PS Your assertions about 9th Bhumi and whatnot has no basis. You should be thinking about how to get to the first bhumi, which is miraculous in itself.
The highest force for change is the mind. The Right Motivation is a powerful force of that mind.
thanks Konchok, much appreciated.. the initial answer as well as some of the other elaborations in this thread are very valueable to me. [quote="Konchok Ösel Dorje"] You can go beyond thought, but you can't go beyond the mind. Yoga is the cessation of the modifications of the mind. Know that the entire Cosmos is encompassed by Mind. [/quote] [quote="Konchok Ösel Dorje"] The main point of view of both Dzogchen and Mahamudra is that the entire Cosmos is encompassed by Mind. The nature of mind is the unelaborated Dharmakaya. Patanjali's premise that Yoga is the cessation of mental modifications corresponds directly to the Buddha's teachings of nonattachment. [/quote]
may i add on my thks also for the insightful posts brother mystickonchoc, and thk you for mentioning me in one of my past incarnations 
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Actually I do…
Good luck achieving tenth bhumi in one lifetime without working on the human energy body. This is not Buddhism. Either you have been misled or you have misunderstood. I bet in two years time you will realize Milarepa and every non-kagyu lama was right.
Milarepa was a Kagyu Lama. Make a strong wish to find a guru. No one will attain the 10th bhumi without a teacher. Enlightenment depends on Buddha, Dharma and Sangha. I’m not being misled in the least by His Holiness Taklung Matul Rinpoche, His Eminence Garchen Rinpoche or Lama Drubpon Gonpo Dorje Rinpoche. My dharma friends teach me the Six Yogas of Naropa and the oral pith instructions. See www.vajrayoga.org. You’ll see that I am a teacher at the monastery. I know what these are for, when they will work and when they won’t.
There’s really no substitute for a guru. A realized Lama can look into your eyes and tell if you have attained some level of realization. Many instructions he gave me, not because I asked, but because he could tell by being around me or something. The way a Lama prods you this way and that to recognize your real nature is a very deep and mystical experience.
You have no idea how profound and rapid my development has been in the last six months, because of Lama Drubpon Gonpo Dorje Rinpoche. The kind of meditative experiences I have had, the visions, the change in my energy, psychic experiences, and a profound sense of ease. I have advanced tremendously using only Mahamudra, not shamatha, but Mahamudra. Mahamudra is extremely profound, not mundane, and beyond imagination. There are many things I’ve been asked not to talk about, delightful things and terrifying things.
The nature of mind is the path. It is that simple. Some students will attain buddhahood simply with the pith instructions on the nature of mind. Not everyone needs special yogas. The Yogas are not the main point. The main point is Emptiness. Emptiness is not an idea, it is not a non-idea. Emptiness is your mind in a certain meditation experience when you are not clinging to anything at the moment.
You need to drop your know-it-all approach, because it is getting you no where. Your library academic knowledge to dharma has screwed up your head into thinking your have realized the nature of your mind when you haven’t. You wind up slandering your dharma friends, misrepresenting the Dharma and misleading aspirants which is a grave karmic mishap.
Energy body practices are not a starting point for any yogi. Like in AYP, you must have experience in meditation to make the energy practice useful. You have misunderstood the doctrine of dependent origination. Knowing what dependent origination means, doesn’t mean you have experienced the Emptiness, or that karmas will self-liberate.
Enlightenment is not dependent on the energy body. It is dependent on the Buddha-nature, the Precious Human Life, the Spiritual Master and his/her teachings.
If you want to know what Buddhism is, I will make this clear to you one more time: Buddhism is the path of non-discrimination. Release your views. Rest without judging, be open, like space. Samsara arises from likes, dislikes and confusion.
As soon as you give up your judging, your attachment to being right all the time, your attachment to ideas and your attachment to views, you will creep closer to the reality.
“I do not go checking on views to find out if my own is high and others’ low.” Milarepa
As long as I see you writing on line, I’m going to hold your feet to the fire. You can do better than just arrogantly relying on yourself. You must take refuge and rely on the Buddha, Dharma and Sangha. Stop talking about the rainbow body and things you only know enough about to be dangerous. If you are a Buddhist, like you claim to be, you will know that there are Dharma protectors who will always be there to stop anyone from misrepresenting Dharma.
If you had any humility, you would see that I’m trying to help you. The energy body has nothing to do with Buddhism, just like Deity Yoga has nothing to do with Buddhism. Hindus use these too. Buddhists have made use of these tools. Buddhist wisdom is nonconceptual and without prejudice. Any other tool could be adopted too.
The Buddha’s view of emptiness: cling to nothing whatsoever. Judging “this is right” “this is wrong” is really suffering.
“Boil all the points down into one. This One is: The Void Nature of Being” Milarepa.
Trust me, I am fine with not talking about the Dharma lol
Maybe Yogani should just delete this entire thread. I would actually even prefer it.
Why would he do that when I’m clearing up all your misinformation?
I have always agreed with you on realizing non-discrimination. This is Buddhist Dzogchen view.
Proper view (which is non-discrimination), dedication of merit and the intention to become perfectly awakened for the benefit all sentient beings are necessary for Buddhahood. There I said it yet again.
You are the one comparing Buddha to Patanjali and the Vedas. Am I missing something?
You do not believe in the two accumulations of merit and wisdom, the need to remove the obscurations nor all the other detailed requirements of Buddhahood…but whatever, I am cool with it.
P.S. Patanjali ain’t close to Buddhism, because as far as I understand he wants to avoid thoughts and emotions in favor of one-pointed concentration. In fact aren’t Patanjali and Mahayana typically looked upon as opposites???
Hi alwayson. Are you saying that the accumulation of merit and wisdom, and the removal of obstructions are exclusivly tantric? With Thanks, divinefurball
Of course, Buddhahood depends on the accumulation of merit and wisdom. I never said otherwise. One of the fruits of merit is meeting a wise teacher. Awakening means removal of the two obscurations.
What you are saying is that removal of the two obscurations cannot happen without the energy body work. What I’m telling you is that is not true. That may be true for most, but it is not absolute. Whether a practitioner needs the energy body work depends on their merit and wisdom. The Buddha attained enlightenment without these practices.
Energy body work is auxiliary. For example, Tummo allows one to go without food. It also is a practice that makes one feel extra worry free and at ease. On this basis, one can practice Mahamudra in the assisted state of ease.
The samadhi of hindu and vedanta yogis takes one into the final layer of samsara in the formless realm. This is very high level samadhi. Hindu yogis are capable of many amazing feats.
Buddhist samadhi takes one out of samsara and into the Bhumis. It is a wrong view to assert that the hindu and vedanta yogas are opposite of the Buddha’s Dharma. The correct orientation is that the hindu, agamic and vedanta practices are foundational.
There’s no argument or opposition. Rather, in the Buddha’s samadhi there is no attachment and no focus. In the other samadhis along the path, for example, in the formless realm of neither perception nor non-perception, there is a subtle thought being held.
So saying “Patanjali ain’t close to Buddhism” is discrimination, and thus wrong.
The Buddha would not have agreed nor disagreed with Patanjali. Verse two of the Yoga Sutras is: Yoga is the cessation of mental modifications. <– This is exactly the meaning of Emptiness.
Nice try. You are just losing all credibility by saying Patanjali, Buddha, the Vedas and the Upanishads all say the same thing.
The mind is literally a “wind” in the body. How the heck is it modified in the first place?
Thought activity NATURALLY decreases simply with the level of relaxation. Its simply an energy current with no dualistic essence.
The “cessation of mental modifications sounds” sounds to me like void. Void is not sunyata. If you think this is sunyata, you need to start from square one again.
Hi all: I just thought Yogani’s AYP (partial) Lesson 43 might be pertinent with respect to the relation between non-discrimination and tantra. What do you think?!:
Meditation and pranayama are distinctly different practices with distinctly different purposes. Meditation instills in us the silence of pure bliss consciousness. Pranayama loosens the subtle nerves and stimulates the flow of prana in particular ways. This provides pure bliss consciousness the opportunity to flow dynamically in the nervous system. This is experienced first as the ever-increasing expansion of ecstasy, and later as the rise of universal, blissful self-awareness. Pranayama is on the edge of meditation, but it is not meditation. Meditation is on the edge of pranayama, but it is not pranayama. You might say that they both come from opposite sides to the edge of the subtle boundary that exists between pure bliss consciousness and prana everywhere in us. By doing pranayama and meditation in succession we are dissolving the boundary from both sides. It is a double whammy. This is the great benefit of doing both practices.
Pranayama in its various forms has tremendous value, and we will make extensive use of it. It is one of the master keys to opening the human nervous system to divine experience. But, pranayama is not a replacement for meditation. Only through meditation can the nervous system be permeated with pure bliss consciousness. Pranayama and other techniques we will discuss aid greatly in providing the ground for pure bliss consciousness to come up, and they are means for its expansion outward, but they are not the primary cause of its coming up. Meditation is. For this reason, pranayama is not recommended as a stand-alone practice without meditation.
Meditation can be practiced as a stand-alone. It is a complete practice that will lead to a full flowering of pure bliss consciousness in a person over an extended period of time. This is why meditation was said to be enough for those who are not inclined to pursue other advanced yoga practices to speed up the journey. Meditation is the best single practice one can do.
On the other hand, practicing pranayama alone without meditation can leave the practitioner vulnerable in some ways. Imagine you plow a field, turning the rich soil over and over. It is exposed, fertile, and ready for the seed to be planted. What will you plant there? If you meditate deeply with an effective method, you will plant the field full with the seed of pure bliss consciousness, and it will germinate and grow strong, filling the field with joy. But what if you don’t meditate, and you don’t plant anything in particular in your fertile pranayama field? What will grow there? Something will. But what? Whatever happens to be around. Some desires, some thoughts, some emotions, whatever happens to be blowing over the field. To tell you the truth, a lot of weeds can grow there, because there is no crop of pure bliss consciousness filling up that field. This is why pranayama, practiced as a stand-alone over months and years, can lead to less instead of more. In some people this type of imbalanced practice can lead to increasing rigidness, egotism, anxiety, anger, and just plain bad luck. Meditate every day after you do pranayama and you will experience the opposite of these things in great profusion – flexibility, compassion, peace, joy, and lots of good luck. That’s how it works.
Hold on. The way Buddha obtained enlightenment is a more complex deliberate way involving multiple lifetimes.
Are we talking one lifetime or multiple? Because I am talking only about one.
With regard to Patanjali, I’m telling you what Lord Jigten Sumgon, an enlightened master teaches. Take it or leave it. I have no concern about my credibility; perhaps you do. Concern about the eight worldly dharmas has not impact on my mind.
I’m not saying they all say the same thing. I’m saying what your discriminatory analytical mind can’t feel: there is no opposition.
The Ganga Mahamudra states that Samadhi is when thoughts, feelings, perceptions naturally dissipate, like clouds in the sky. This does not happen naturally, unless you have received the pointing out instructions and have learned to enter the View and to maintain it. Entering the View at the moment of perceptions, emotions, etc., and maintaining it is the practice. This is exactly what Mahamudra and Trekcho describe as working with circumstances. One uses the energy of the moment to feed into one’s practice of untying the knots.
Thus, Patanjali’s definition of Yoga is exactly the definition of Mahamudra. Though I did not say that Patanjali’s methods are sufficient to attain buddhahood. I said they are not opposite. They lie along a continuum.
The naturally occurring meditation that happens when you relax is Shamata. It is not Vipashyana. Buddhist meditation is shamata and vipashyana. In The View Practice Action, shamata is natural due to emotions, thoughts, and perceptions. We don’t deal with artificial objects of focus. We deal with what is happening at the moment.
The hindu vedanta hit their high points at the limits of shamata, and barely scratches the surface of wisdom. Then, Buddhist samadhi picks up Vipashyana and extends it to new heights.
If you think you are experiencing Shunyata in Shamata, you are barely scratching the surface.