Hi Osel,
There is a difference between a discussion, and getting lost in arguments over fixed views. This is exactly what the Buddha asked his monks not to do. When they continued to do it, he walked away, disappointed. He saw that they were missing the whole point of the spiritual life, which is to abandon all fixed views, not to bolster them up and put them to the test in argument. These days this kind of thing is commonplace amongst people who call themselves Buddhists. People bicker over this aspect of the Dharma, or that aspect, attempting to strengthen their own position, whilst putting others down. And all this is done under the name of spirituality.
To be honest with you, it is all nonsense.
You may enjoy it, but that doesn’t mean it has anything to do with Buddhism, or anything to do with the spiritual life. The Buddha walked away from it 2500 years ago. Anyone with any degree of insight would be wise to walk away from it today.
What the Buddha really taught was a path of spiritual practice, restraint and self-inquiry. He taught his followers to live in harmony together, and to live with humility and respect for each other. He taught compassion, and peacefulness.
Spiritual practice is really the key thing here because all the rest… compassion, humility, equanimity, harmony, peace, inner joy, samatha, samadhi, nirvana… are the fruit of that.
Christi
Christi,
The disagreement in all of this thread is mainly down to me not realizing that Osel followed essence Mahamudra.
Wikipedia’s Mahamudra article does a fairly good job of explaining it.
When I use the term Mahamudra, I only mean anuttarayoga. Osel means something else entirely.
Now that the distinction is realised, I think we are reconciled.
[quote=“Christi”]
Hi Osel,
There is a difference between a discussion, and getting lost in arguments over fixed views. This is exactly what the Buddha asked his monks not to do. When they continued to do it, he walked away, disappointed. He saw that they were missing the whole point of the spiritual life, which is to abandon all fixed views, not to bolster them up and put them to the test in argument. These days this kind of thing is commonplace amongst people who call themselves Buddhists. People bicker over this aspect of the Dharma, or that aspect, attempting to strengthen their own position, whilst putting others down. And all this is done under the name of spirituality.
To be honest with you, it is all nonsense.
You may enjoy it, but that doesn’t mean it has anything to do with Buddhism, or anything to do with the spiritual life. The Buddha walked away from it 2500 years ago. Anyone with any degree of insight would be wise to walk away from it today.
What the Buddha really taught was a path of spiritual practice, restraint and self-inquiry. He taught his followers to live in harmony together, and to live with humility and respect for each other. He taught compassion, and peacefulness.
Spiritual practice is really the key thing here because all the rest… compassion, humility, equanimity, harmony, peace, inner joy, samatha, samadhi, nirvana… are the fruit of that.
Christi
Your view of what "the Buddha" taught is very fixed and limited. I know you think you know what the Buddha taught, because you read some books, but you are missing the vast majority of the Buddha's teachings. There is a living tradition of these teachings you don't know about. You are the one putting people down and asserting your fixed views about what the Buddha taught. Each one of your criticisms of us is evident in your own comment. Funny really. Just serving as your reflection.
It has to do with emptiness, generation, appearance, dissolution and interdependence.
Hi Konchok Osel Dorje, you said (responding to Christi’s view of the thread above, I believe):
“FYI, Buddhism students ENJOY discussions and debates. We are not sensitive and don’t just verbally hug and pet each other. We test our own view against others as a way to look into the mirror. This is the nature of interdependence. The Buddha was ESPECIALLY verbose. The Buddha’s sutras fill entire libraries, not including the thousands of volumes of commentaries and practice manuals. That is true for Theravada, Mahayana and Vajrayana. Buddhism is very fascinating and those who get involved with it LOVE to meet other dharma students and discuss everything. During practice time, in retreats, we don’t talk at all. That is the nature of the Sangha.”
Konchok Osel Dorje, I’m both glad and sad to hear that you are not sensititve…
The Buddha was not “ESPECIALLY verbose”. He was not verbose at all. To say so is offensive in the extreme. Unlike yourself, the Buddha said only what was necessary. The Buddha’s Dharma was offered out of personal experience and compassion, and was/is therefore not something to be argued about, but tried and judged on the results, by each - as he himself recommended. Yogani offers his teachings in the same way. Those with real experience don’t have anything to argue about, and don’t put forward “positions”, etc. They ripen and give fruit to be tried. The interdependent exhange of real fruit is the real nature of the Sangha (not a “test of views”). Everything else offered as “teaching,” “debate,” or “discussion”, is pretentious, self-involved palaver and only stands in the way of y/our realization; while leading others astray in illusary drama, and discursive miasma, that is far removed from liberating thought in the Dharmakaya - as the taste of fruit can. Comparing such to the Buddha’s Dharma is exceedingly bad karma to say the least, and at best, an indication that self-enquiry is urgently required.
By The Way, the definition of verbose is: “containing more words than neccessary {as this thread does}: wordy: impaired by wordiness; given to wordiness, wordy. (Websters).”
For Y/Our Enlightenment In This Lifetime, dfb
Well then I guess what I meant to say was the Buddha’s sutras are INCREDIBLY LONG and the 84,000 teachings are IMMENSELY VAST.
Hi Osel,
I have been practicing Buddhism within the living tradition for the last 20 years. Maybe it is time to stop playing games?
Christi
I have been practicing Buddhism within the living tradition for the last 20 years. Maybe it is time to stop playing games?
Christi
Don't be angry. I'm not playing games. I'm just pointing out a fact. Your comments reflect a very limited scope of what the Buddha taught and how Buddhists are supposed to act. There are many teachings that don't really resemble what you wrote. If I recall correctly you are a Theravada practitioner. Am I right? Very textual originalism. I shared that view briefly, but I didn't get stuck in it.
Here’s a practice I did for ten years; no one taught this to me; it just came naturally. This was before I knew anything about Buddhism:
I would visualize the entire universe coming into existence as I exhaled A at the top of my lungs. The universe abiding at U in the middle of my breath, and the universe dissolving at M at the end of my breath. Then, between breaths seeing the void.
This is a very powerful meditation on impermanence. By “seeing” the void, one realizes the void is one’s mind. One can have out of body experience, fly through space, and see the planets.
Dear Osel, you need to hear what the group, this sangha, is saying, that you seem very stuck, and resistant to attempts to show you this, directly or via irony. The libraries of books can be of no help, if used in this way. None of the concepts that the best of them contain are intended to be reified, unless the teacher is as deluded as the reader. Until we can ‘see through’ the words and the systems, most especially our own, we remain on the voracious quest. More is not better. All such knowledge slips away when the truth is known. Omniscience depends on this.
Peace
chinna
Chinna, I do appreciate what you are saying. I think you all misunderstand what this debate between Alwayson and myself was about. It was my attempt to get him to stop reifying a set pattern to buddhahood. My arguments to him were exactly what you are saying to me, that the nature of mind is beyond concepts. His point was the the nature of mind can only be discovered via Togal, which is not a concept, it’s a technique of sun gazing. Because I practice Essence Mahamudra, there is no Togal. The practice is Mahamudra, which is also not a concept, it’s a technique. Then, we got into a debate about whether Mahamudra is a technique or just another name for Buddhahood. I also tried to get him to understand that in Togal one does not merely relax into shamatha, but one must rest in rigpa, another name for the “natural state”/mahamudra. I was trying to get him to see the way one can look at these practices in a way that transcends the lineages, by taking manifestations as ripa as the path. We had this debate, because he was using the language of the Sakya lineage. I was using the language of the Kagyu lineage. Once we understood each other, we had some discussions over email and the debate was over.
Then, because this discussion between he and I was very technical, from teachings with which you perhaps you are not familiar, some of you became frustrated. I’m sorry about that.
However, Chinna, Christi, I don’t reify concepts. I am not engaging in ad hominem attacks. I’m not trying to tell you what to think or act as some kind of authority about what the Buddha really taught.
So Chinna you can stop reifying the concept that people don’t need teachers. Maybe Maharshi didn’t need one, but I’m sure that’s not gonna work for you. If it did, you wouldn’t be on the internet, you’d be at your ashram with your wise students. The fact is that almost everyone does need a teacher, and most will not get anywhere by just inquiring into “I am.”
Christi can stop reifying the concept that the Buddha was just the man Shakyamuni. There have been numerous buddhas who have lived since then and who live today, and have left excellent methods for the swift attainment of buddhahood, methods that take into account the relative needs of the students with varying levels of capacity, and not some naive, one size fits all, overly simplistic method.
Perhaps you all need to climb outside of your little boxes from Advaita and Theravada and see what the Vajrayana masters have to say and have to teach. Why not? Surely you are not attached to 20 years of conditioning.
I said Buddhahood can only be obtained by thogal or anuttarayoga (and also empowerments).
Thogal goes beyond the mind wind, so how can you use it to discover the nature of the mind?
There is no higher method than thogal in Dzogchen. You may say your instantaneous essence Mahamudra is higher, but that is not acknowledged in Dzogchen.
If you are talking about all schools as a whole, the natural state/rigpa is NOT Mahamudra.
------>Anuttarayoga is Mahamudra<------
I said Buddhahood can only be obtained by thogal or anuttarayoga (and also empowerments).
Thogal goes beyond the mind wind, so how can you use it to discover the nature of it.
There is no higher method than thogal in Dzogchen. You may say your essence Mahamudra is higher, but that is not acknowledged in Dzogchen.
If you are talking about Tibetan Buddhism as a whole, the natural state/rigpa is NOT Mahamudra.
Anuttarayoga is Mahamudra.
Okay, you've stated your point. Acknowledged. Essence Mahamudra is not Anuttarayoga and doesn't say empowerments are required. Furthermore, in Dzogchen and Mahamudra the meaning of mind is different. In Dzogchen the meaning of mind doesn't include rigpa, in Mahamudra it does. And according to Essence Mahamudra ripa is mahamudra. Rigpa means the energy of unborn possibilities which manifest as rainbow lights in meditation. You can continue to cling to your set view about a tradition with which you have no exposure or you can open your mind to a new possibility. If you want to hold to your view, there are teachings that are meant for you; you are already talking about them. I'm not saying Essence Mahamudra is higher than Dzogchen or even Togal. What I'm saying is that there is an Essence Dzogchen, expressed by the 3 Statements of Garab Dorje. The key point of either is Direct Introduction by the realized master. There are such masters alive today who are capable of such a service. In my opinion it behooves anyone with a connection to seek one out. It's not about higher or lower. Both are highest. It is about sudden or gradual. In any event, sudden and gradual are relative terms, one person's sudden is another's gradual and vice versa. Direct Introduction is not that sudden and a little gradual. Togal may be part of that sudden or gradual approach, but not always, as in the case of Essence Mahamudra. In any case, Guru Yoga (where the buddha's samadhi is the guru), is the primary practice. That is due to interdependent nature of buddhahood. And that is a practice you can do right away without any initiation. The simplest Guru Yoga is white A at the heart. In any event, my intense study of Dzogchen and Mahamudra is that there is a path transcending these lineages. It comes about due to Garab Dorje 3 Statements. 1) Direct introduction to manifestations as dharmakaya 2)Dispel Doubts 3) Continue with confidence effortlessly My examination of all the pith instructions is that the most succinct instructions for direction introduction are the Essence Mahamudra pith instructions that go along with Tilopa's Song "Ganga Mahamudra." The best way to dispel doubts is to have a realized master spin you around and point you in the right direction. Then effortlessly one can resolve all obscurations in swift and efficient self-liberation. This path is truly wonderful. It is the path of the Mahasiddhas. And Dzogpa Chenpo, Great Perfection, in sanskrit is Maha Siddha. The lineage is blessed with the path of effortlessness.
So what?
Dzogchenpas dispel doubts about the nature of the mind on day one with a guru, then practice thogal for the rest of their lives.
Similarly in Mahamudra, they dispel doubts about the nature of the mind on day one, and then practice generation and completion stage for the rest of their lives.
So what?
Dzogchenpas realize the nature of the mind, dispel doubts etc. on day one with a guru, then practice thogal for the rest of their lives.
In Mahamudra similarly, they realize the nature of the mind on day one, dispel doubts etc., and then practice generation and completion stage for the rest of their lives.
If you want to take your whole life that's fine. That's the gradual approach. Some yogis can make the trip in two years. I'm not getting any younger jib jabbing with you. *wink* Honestly some reach fruition in Togal after 2-5 years. Here are MY observations based on MY experience and understanding. I'm not speaking for anyone. Essence Mahamudra one can achieve fruition without empowerments, two stages or Togal, but with Guru Yoga. Dzogchen one can achieve fruition without empowerments but with Togal and Guru Yoga. Thus, there is a way to fruition without empowerments or Togal, but must include Guru Yoga. And this is nice, because not everyone lives in a sunny place. This path is very wonderful and transcends lineages, names and specific methods. One doesn't necessarily need a physical guru to receive the direct introduction. The pointing out instructions are all over the place. What follows is natural liberation. The essence of the swift method is faith.
Only you believe that. Possibly not even your lama.
Have you specifically asked your lama whether you will gain omniscient Buddhahood while alive (not during bardo) via this?
Because a lot of Vajrayana practice is about future lifetimes and after death which is not the point of this thread.
Only you believe that. Possibly not even your lama.
Have you specifically asked your lama whether you will gain omniscient Buddhahood while alive (not during bardo) via this?
Because a lot of Vajrayana practice is about future lifetimes and after death which is not the point of this thread.
I had dinner with my lama last night, Tibetan momo, delicious. Dipping them in homemade mexican salsa, wierd, but very delicious. We discussed this very issue. Along with the teachings of Lord Jigten Sumgon in Gongchig. You should know Alwayson, this discussion was brought on because of our discussions. Your questions, became my questions. I love you. He told me that he was giving me a teaching. The teaching was called Essence Mahamudra. He broke down the point and history of empowerments as being the path of karmamudra (sexual union). This path Milarepa gave to Rechungpa his lesser disciple (the doubting Thomas). The empowerments are now merely symbolic, since monks are celibate. Tummo is a powerful shamatha practice where the karmamudra is now just visualized. It brings on great joy. However, some practitioners have naturally arising tummo, because tummo is natural to the body. But Gampopa was Milarepa's heart disciple and received the essence of Tilopa's Mahamudra practice. Hence the term Essence Mahamudra. Also Gampopa was a monk. Also Tilopa taught that karmamudra was a practice for those of lesser capacity. Namdrol is misinformed when he says that Tilopa taught two stages. Two stages is not discussed in Tilopa's song. Gampopa was highest capacity and was reborn disciple of Shakyamuni. Gampopa's tummo arose instantly, in one day. The extra juice that makes enlightenment possible in this life is Kagyu's special Guru Yoga. And just like Gampopa did, one can gain omniscient buddhahood via Essence Mahamudra. Essence Mahamudra is shared among all the Kagyu traditions. His Holiness Taklung Matul Rinpoche was present there, and took and active part of this discussion. He is at the same level as the Karmapa in terms of status. He confirmed all Kagyu lineages share Essence Mahamudra. However, Essence Mahamudra is not taught to everyone. One needs to be thoroughly examined, etc., etc. Because Essence is Essence, there must be an Essence Dzogchen, just like there is an Essence Vedanta which includes Guru Yoga (See Nisargadatta Maharaja). So why I am so juiced is that a very concise overview like Gong Chig, a powerful Guru Yoga, a very concise pith instruction, and direct introduction makes for a very very amazingly efficient path to omniscient buddhahood that one can practice in any weather condition and without books. It transcends lineages and paths, and brings us back to the source, the path of the Maha Siddha.
Quick question, Osel:
The Dzogchen essence lineage you refer to: is that the lineage of Chatral Sangye Dorje Rinpoche?
gri
I am referring something in the abstract. The lineage of Vajradhara/Samantabhadra. It appears and manifests in many ways. It manifests by the teachings 1) Direct introduction to the nature of manifestations as dharmakaya; 2) Methods dispelling doubts; 3) Continuing effortlessly with confidence.
That being said, Chatral Rinpoche and Dudjom Rinpoche’s lineage is very excellent, wonderful. If you have an opportunity to meet yogis from this lineage, do it fast.
The above is possible with his lineage. His are wonderful Dzogchen teachings.