Anagami and AYP: How Do the Models of Awakening Compare?

20. Enlightenment Milestones
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Blessings, fellow yogis.

According to the Theravada Buddhist four-stage model of awakening, I wanted to ask about the third stage, Anagami, and how it might correlate with the AYP, Advaita, or broader yogic models of spiritual awakening.

My understanding is that in Theravada, Anagami (the “non-returner”) is characterized by the complete abandonment of sensual desire and ill will. I have been told that this stage can only be attained through insight and/or cessation. Once realised, lust and craving no longer take hold—the fetters are said to be permanently broken.

How would this map onto the AYP framework? Is there an equivalent stage or marker within AYP or Advaita teachings? And would you agree that such a transformation must arise through cessation or insight, or are there other pathways within yogic traditions through which the roots of lust and craving can be dissolved?

Thanks in advance,

J

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Hi J and welcome to AYP,

That would be the Dispassion state of progression, this is where someone cease to identify with objects of desire and other thoughts an rest in esctatic bliss, it kind of a self regulatd moral compass.

That was the short answer, you can find the whole of it in the AYP sites.

:folded_hands:

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Thanks Alain! I will have a read. I assumed that would be the case, which is often natural as the path progresses. Just within Theravada, someone told me it’s only through cessation or insight, and that some monks anecdotally who come out of their monasteries, start getting busy and teaching, lust (previously suspended with the help of samadhi), starts to come back as they reduce hours of practice.

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Hi Greenchai,

Alain has given you the short answer, so here is the long answer:

In general the idea of there being stages on the spiritual bath is a problematic one, as the spiritual path doesn’t really have stages on it. In fact ultimately there is no spiritual path. The idea of there being a particular stage on the spiritual path is flawed on three levels: Firstly the idea of a stage exists only in the mind; secondly the idea of there being an individual person who could arrive at this stage is simply an idea in the mind; and third, the idea of there being a spiritual path in the first place is simply an idea in the mind. So, it is all based on ideas layered upon more ideas.

The spiritual path is sometimes described as being a journey from here to here. However it does not involve going anywhere else. If you try to construct a path that goes from where you are to where you are, without actually going anywhere else, you will find it is impossible.

Having said this, if we assume that it can be useful on some level talk about stages on the path from a teaching perspective, there are two AYP Lessons that talk about stages. One of them is Lesson 35 which talks about three stages on the path: The stage where bliss becomes permanent, the stage where ecstasy becomes permanent, and the stage where these two merge into divine love, unity, and liberation.

There is also Lesson 327 which talks about five stages of the mind:

These stages are pre-witnessing, witnessing, discrimination (viveka), dispassion/ renunciation (vairagya), and unity. So, it could be that the Buddhist Anagami stage correspondents loosely with the vairagya stage in AYP?

Vairāgya involves dispassion toward lesser desires and is often described as the natural letting go that comes from discovering something greater, rather than forced renunciation. When vairagya is present there is diminished attraction to sensory pleasures, freedom from reactive aversion, emotional equanimity, and actions arising more from compassion than from personal craving. Craving for sensory pleasure has fallen away in this state, and also aversion, hatred, irritation, and resentment. This is the “cessation” aspect of this stage of the path. The “insight” aspect is insight into our true nature, that we are not the body and mind, or the objects of the senses or any if the five aggregates.

A subtle sense of “I am” as a separate entity is still present, as well as subtle ignorance (ignorance of our true nature as being completely beyond all separation). This is what differentiates the stage of vairagya from the last stage, unity.

Advaita tends to be much more vague on stages of the path. The principle starting position of advaita is that everyone is already free and enlightened and if they are not aware of that it is due to ignorance which operates like clouds veiling the sun. From the sun’s perspective it is never veiled by clouds. So, there can’t be any stages. From a teaching perspective advaita teachers do talk about conditions that need to be met in order to be able to realise advaita. One of these conditions is vairagya. They also sometimes talk about path structures: Śravaṇa – hearing the teaching, Manana – reflection and clarification, and Nididhyāsana – deep contemplation / assimilation.

But they would be very unlikely to say something like “this person is at this stage” as that would imply the existence of an individual who could progress in time and achieve things, which would contradict the “everyone is always already enlightened” principle.

And yes, when monks and nuns are practicing in monasteries they can believe they are more advanced than they actually are. The conditions are deliberately set to be conducive to meditation practice and there are very few distractions. So, when they come out of the monastery they are often faced with unexpected challenges and they may not be prepared for them. And if they stop practicing, or reduce their practices below the minimum amount necessary for progress, they can fall backwards on the path which makes the potential distractions even more alluring! :slightly_smiling_face:

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Greetings and welcome greenchai. I will not be answering about ancient texts, but will say that lust is a very transitory thing, no matter which path you are on. I’m guessing you are young and urgent regarding this, perhaps a healthier way is to approach it with curiosity. AYP allows one in time to reside in silence so you can witness with greater clarity. It rewires the neurobiology in ways that allow chi/prana to flow, and be felt. AYP practices may establish natural vjroli, when sexual energy dissolves up the spine rather than outward like typical sex. You can also express your lust in pure devotion to your ishta, your ideal, which imay be felt in the heart center and third eye. Yoga can help you manage lust in these ways, but most importantly, you are here to experience and then surrender, annd witness honestly if you attaching too strongly, to anything, particularly lust. Adjust according to your inner guru that is born from silence.

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Thanks Tristan, really appreciated the depth in your message.

I also appreciate your sentence: if you try to construct a path that goes from where you are to where you are, without actually going anywhere else, you will find it is impossible.

Which is another way of saying in the seen, there is only the seen; just that, is the end of suffering. Or something along those lines, when Buddha spoke to Bahiya.

The point about stages being ideas layered on ideas lands well. Yes, the words for these different stages are inherently empty (!) but I think you’re right that from a teaching perspective they still have benefit and the AYP mapping to vairagya is helpful. The description of vairagya as dispassion arising naturally from discovering something greater, rather than forced renunciation, is resonant.

Yes, I agree re monastic life. Conditions can simulate a kind of stillness that doesn’t fully meet the sankharas in ordinary life. Which is perhaps where the real vairagya gets tested.

When the ‘self’ falls away and awareness becomes abiding, lust doesn’t just vanish. It feels less like something to uproot and ‘attain’, and more like something that gradually loses its grip as practice deepens and one continues to marinate in stillness and presence.

Grateful for the exchange.

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