Agreed, good points. Nothing wrong with our own scenery being motivation though progress can be slowed for practitioners and sometimes for long periods of time if “I” identifies with said experiences, so the moving on part of the equation is very important. Trouble can start for seekers also when they begin looking to scenery that others have and measuring their own experience with creating expectations for the future and/ or feeling short-comings in their experiences to date.
Good points, I think milestones in behavior and actions with the rise of inner-silence would cover the continuum of enlightenment pretty effectively. From the gradual distancing between thoughts, emotional reactions and action, to the gradual increase in equanimity, decrease in subtle violence, to the gradual shift in action from self-serving to win-win, to service to others. From the gradual shift from abundant and long lasting experiences of anger, hate, greed, fear, jealousy, sadness, lust etc. to decreasing time spent in each and increasing periods of equanimity between each, to the gradual increase of unconditional love until it is outpouring everywhere in daily action.
Good points. I don’t know the answer, I just see that a habit of looking at our own actions, how we are getting along with others, how our morals and ethics are evolving or improving, the increasing love in our daily lives would be pretty hands-on experiences for all practitioners at all stages of the journey and also prior to the time when energy experiences start and silence is still an ambiguous concept.
This is the crux of my reason for posting this. From my perspective, I see the “ordinary ways” that things are improving to be a better place to focus measuring progress that would touch the broadest spectrum of practitioners. From my perspective, the traditional milestones in yogic culture are misleading when applied to ourselves and others and discouraging for those who will never experience things like ecstasy, bliss, unity consciousness etc., i.e. “why continue, nothing is happening”.
Bah, humbug! No sign of enlightenment here if that is a milestone!
/emcenezer Scrooge who enjoyed the following: [quote]
If we are not feeling inclined to go out and serve humanity, it is not a shortcoming.
[/quote]
Hi Anthem:
There is much to be said for the “life improving in ordinary ways” approach for assessing our spiritual progress. All things being equal, it is a good way to view our path, with the least distraction.
However, when inner experiences (symptoms) occur involving the rise of inner silence (witness), or dramatic energy events (ecstatic or not, sometimes physical), then practitioners will ask about these. I don’t think it is an effective approach to push them off, as many traditions do. This does not resolve whatever concerns a practitioner may have. As long as there are unresolved concerns, then there will tend to be a focus on the experience. That is a distraction, and can reduce motivation to practice.
This is also tied in with self-pacing in practices. If we understand the general nature of the excesses in purification that can occur within us, and know how to regulate our practices to mitigate such excesses, then maximum progress on our path can be sustained in a balanced way over the long term. We can acknowledge experiences for what they are, and then favor our practice over them, including self-pacing as needed.
So there are several reasons why we would like to have an understanding about anything that might happen, and that is a difference between AYP and other approaches.
If we can understand the process of human spiritual transformation as a whole, it can help us to be less fixated on the various experiences we may encounter along the way. That goes for service (karma yoga) also, which is largely an effect of abiding inner silence and its movement outward through us into the environment.
The guru is in you.
Interesting thread.
Andrew said:
It was an act of love for Clint Eastwood to [SPOILER REMOVED] but from other eyes it may not have appeared that way.
Aaaaah! Andrew, I was looking forward to watching that movie and what you have written has spoiled it for me pretty badly. Are you aware of the concept of movie spoilers and why not to write them on online forums without a warning?
From my perspective, the traditional milestones in yogic culture are misleading when applied to ourselves and others and discouraging for those who will never experience things like ecstasy, bliss, unity consciousness etc., i.e. “why continue, nothing is happening”.
I’m inclined to agree. There are people who experience any given Yogic milestone and who are still in bad levels of behavior at some level. Maybe most of them?
Is it time to go back to the drawing-board about what enlightenment is?
At some level, there is some sort of status-hierarchy/achievement-hierarchy/admiration-hierarchy operating in the minds of people here with ‘enlightenment’ on the top of the ladder.
At the social level, and the cultural-guidance level, it’s probably a bad idea to create a admiration-hierarchy based on ‘enlightenment’ for the problems you mention. I’ve often talked about this problem before. Really, a jerk is not a big deal – a jerk who is believed to be a perfect saint or a great wise one is a big deal to those who get close and BELIEVE.
Given that it is not good to create an overly-strong admiration-hierarchy based on yogic enlightenment, the question arises whether we should live with any admiration-hierarchy at all? But for most of us, it’s almost inevitable that we have an admiration-hierarchy because we strive for something, so those we admire will be on some sort of ‘hierarchy’ in our minds.
Is enlightenment too big a thing in our minds? Do we have undue expectations of it? Are the ‘enlightened’ therefore in an overly-strong admiration-hierarchy in our minds?
Maybe it’s just better to put people who behave well at the top of the biggest and most important admiration-hierarchy we operate with. It’s as simple as that. Our admiration for the ‘enlightened’ should perhaps parallel our admiration for, say, a great diver or dancer or musician. It should come down a notch.
Yogic ‘enlightenment’ seems to be something other than what the traditions tell us it is. It has some connection with behaving well, but I can’t see much evidence that the connection is that strong or powerful. Are you Yogis all ready to put up with that right-sizing of your admiration for the ‘enlightened’? With Yogic Enlightenment not being considered to be the culmination of human existence? Are y’all ready to have your own Yogic achievement brought down a notch or two?
I agree with you David/Andrew…I think it would be more advantageous to everyone if we put people who act out of Unconditional Love towards everyone on the top of the admiration-hierarchy then those who display the classic “enlightenment symptoms”. This way there is less of an issue with people asking questions like “How can this guru be enlightened and still be such an ass to everyone?”
Love,
Carson
Hi Andrew[quote]
I’m not too worried about establishing codes of conduct. I do love the 4 Agreements by Ruiz and I think the Noble 8 Fold Path and yoga’s yamas and niyamas probably cover most of what is needed. I prefer to see improving conduct spring from stillness.
[/quote]
Yes, I agree that the only real lasting way that conduct will improve is out of stillness, in whichever way that is manifest in a particular path.
I do have a special interest in this at the moment as some of us here are looking at implementing a program in Ireland to deepen people’s practice in the Buddhist tradition of Thich Nhat Hanh. This involves using the 14 Mindfulness Trainings as part of the process.
I am keen from my perspective to understand the best way to utilise this tool and in fact to determine for myself whether it is a good idea in the first place.
I’m not suggesting a code of conduct be developed for AYP, as you say there are lots to choose from if people want to go that route.
Something I am interested in is how useful, or not, are codes of conduct.
One disadvantage in introducing a code is that people might look to the code for their direction, whereas, looking to stay in inner silence or presence and act from there is where it’s at from our perspective.
Advantages are that they can act as Milestones to indicate to a person how they are getting on. As they develop they can see themselves manifesting the codes within.
They can also serve as tools of samyama as people develop inner silence and the codes become naturally manifest.
I think though, that the emphasis should always be placed, as AYP does it, on the development of inner silence and returning to that space, whenever possible, and especially before speaking or taking action.
Yes, we have several people in our AYP group who feel little or nothing when it comes to acstacy or bliss or even a slight tickle in the spine. However some of these people still come to the group and get a lot out of it.
They do get something, they feel the peace, joy and love in the group and ultimately this is all one needs.
Personally, I would put the experiencing of greater peace, love and joy at the top of the milestones list. These are very basic things that anyone can tap into at any stage and are in fact the essential ingredients of enlightenment, in my view. Things also that can be experienced without any ecsatacy or fireworks.
I agree also that understanding the nature of the journey by talking about and exploring the fireworks of the journey can be very valuable and becomes particularly so when running an AYP group. It means that people can have their experiences validated and as long as the reminder of scenary is there, it can be great fun also.
People feeling envy and jealousy can be a double edged sword perhaps. Whilst some may walk from the practice through frustration, others will be spurned on to keep a regular twice daily practice, which in itself is no mean thing.
The people who walk would probably be better in a Buddhist setting where these things are not generally discussed much.
Maybe it’s my age, but in fact most of the people I know have not much interest in the fireworks end of the journey, they recognise that simple peace and joy are what they want in their lives.
Where it is very useful is when someone comes in experiencing ecstacy etc. and needs to be in a place where it is recognised and validated as being ok.
However though, even without ecstacy and fireworks I still promote AYP as a very effective and efficient method. It does produce the results even without the fireworks.
Oops! I’m really sorry about that David, I thought everyone had pretty much seen it by now! Don’t let that dissuade you though, it’s a fantastic movie and far more to it than that one scene.
Hi Louis,
Lot’s of good points, it is a difficult question to answer in regards to the usefulness of codes of conduct. Ironically the book you recommended to me “Old Path, White Clouds” by T.N. Hanh does discuss it often throughout the story of the Buddha. The need for a code of conduct probably really depends on the amount of inner silence present in the group in question.
Anyone here read the book “The Shack”? My father (a devout Fundamentalist Evangelical Christian) gave this book to my wife for Christmas and the way she explained some of it to me, it sounded like at least part of the premise of the book was to state that the 10 commandments in the Bible were not meant to be “codes of conduct” as most percieve them. What they were meant for was to be used as a mirror to help us realize what it is that we often partake in that causes us suffering. They (according to this book, or at least what I understand of it) were not meant as “Thou shalt nots” but “If you are doing these things you will never be happy”. I would love to hear anyone who has read this books perspective on this.
Love,
Carson
Hi Andrew and Carson
I just saw the last two posts today. I am currently reading that book I recommended to you Andrew, “Old Path White Cloud”, a good read so far
I don’t know wheather that stacks up Andrew. In the Thich Nhat Hanh tradition for instance they have the orininal 5 precepts or guidelines from the buddha, then as one deepens one’s practice the 14 Mindfulness Trainings are adopted and these are the ones adopted by lay people looking for a deeper committment. Then if one becomes a monk or nun there are a staggering 250 precepts or more.
I think what Carson said about The 10 Commandments being guidlines for happiness is a very good point. This has to be the approach to take I think.
The way I see it is, that wheather we like it or not, we are fully imbued with rules and guidlines in every aspect and walk of life. Take AYP for instance, because it deals with the dualistic nature of practices and develpoment(i.e.time based) of inner silence, there are a whole set of guidelines to follow, from DM to SB to Samyama and all the other aspects of it also. Posts here are moderated so that they comply with a code of conduct ( the guidlines). And this principle is brought into everything we do in life also.
If we ask the question - If I look deeply - with awareness and inner silence - at something I am doing or about to do - does it bring me true joy and happiness. Not meaning the instant joy one gets, which later can result in pain.
If we can be sufficiently in touch with our true nature to be able to answer this correctly each time, then obviously we don’t need any guidlines for living in joy.
If on the other hand we are living a life where we are constantly being bombarded with ideas and practices that lead to disharmony, sadness and depression, then it might be more difficult to diseminate the wheat from the chaff. Our direction can easily be waylaid by ideas that may seem to bring joy, but when we look deeply at the reprecussions down the line, the opposite is true.
If also, we still have conditioning that causes us to take actions that cause us and others pain, then something to refer to, in the form of guidelines for joyful living, might not be a bad thing to be able to refer to.
I am suggesting that we DO all follow guidelines, whether we realise it or not, whether we have abondoned guidlines or not. So why not then choose guidlines that correspond with what deep inner silence shows us. In this way we are approaching it from inner silence and from guidelines that bring us more deeply into inner silence and joy.
As I said before I am not suggesting that AYP adopt guidelines for general conduct in life. What I am wondering about is the value of a good set of guidlines in association with the development of inner silence, through whatever system one practices.
Carson, that book “The Shack” sounds interesting, would you recommend it as a good read?
Hi Louis,
I have not read the book “The Shack” myself. My father raves about it to everyone he meets. I believe it was written by a Christian but because of the concepts in the book being different from the conventional view taken by most sects of Christianity there were no Christian Publications that would print the book. And because it had such a Christian base no secular publications would print the book either. The author, (don’t know his name) ended up publishing it himself out of his own pocket money and it is now a #1 bestseller, or so I’m told. I don’t know much about the ins and outs of the book as I haven’t talked a lot with my father about it, and my wife found the book perplexing, a little confusing and difficult to explain, so I don’t have much to go on story-wise. I do gather that for some the first 80pages may turn you completely off and make you not finish the book. Especially if you have children. (or so this is what my father says…my wife wasn’t bothered at all by the first 80 pages so…) Anyways, yeah I think this book may be worth reading and I would love to hear the AYP perspective on it, but I am so involved in so many other books it may take me personally a long time to get around to reading it. Let me know if you pick it up, cause I would love to hear a few other perspectives on it. Thanks
Love,
Carson
I finally got to reading Yogani’s “Eight Limbs of Yoga” an excellent read and from my perspective laid out in a very clear and concise way and is extremely well written. I came across a section that made for a great list of behaviours or actions many of which would make for some useful milestones of spiritual progress.
A little quote from page 42 sums it up really well where Yogani indicates that the following behaviours “rise as natural tendencies as we develop more abiding inner silence and natural radiance in our life.” : - A reduction in harmful action
I experience that those changes only show up in periods of “highs”. When in lows due to overload or other causes, they vanish as quickly as if they were never there. And that is totally independent of how hearty and loving and open the “highs” were! Rather, the greater the highs, the greater the lows, so when the pendulum swings there’s no sign of these “milestones” in behaviour. At least I crash back into the worst parts of the personality…
Is that only me, or does other recognize that?
I recognize it… it will change. Just give it a bit more time emc.
As you open more… the purification intensity gets stronger. Through the low stay with the attitude “this too shall pass”… and don’t allow your mind to attach anything to the low phase… don’t visit the past to find a label to fit this moment… don’t analyze this moment… just be in it… and keep telling yourself… “this is just a phase… it will be gone… I am not interested in knowing why, when, where, how… it will go away”. Don’t try to wish it gone, don’t try to alter the low. Keeping oneself busy is a good distraction, but in my case, when in a low it’s hard to get motivated to do anything.
Then when you are out of it… don’t revisit it… have amnesia and forget you had a low… this way you are breaking the shaft… you are not connecting one low to the next and to the next… just enjoy the opening that comes after it.
The way I see it… the low is happening now… next moment the low is not there… and not waiting for the future low, not telling myself… well the next one is right around the corner. This moment there is no low… last low was the past… and past is just a dream… next low who knows when it will be… and it is just imagination. As you train yourself to not take the lows seriously (and I know how hard it can be… I know how terrible I feel when in a low… it’s like who cares about spirituality, there cannot be a better tomorrow… it’s like the dark days of my depression… the only difference is, during the days of my depression, I did not know I could ever be out of it… but now, deep inside I know… this phase will pass… it always does) your mind learns to not attach to the lows… and soon the low phases get shorter and shorter.
The “highs” was what I was not sure how to not be attached to http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=5006
and Katrine and Yogani gave the most awesome replies to that… “give it away”… http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=5006#43305 http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=5006#43298
Hope this helps a bit.
Shanti, thank you so much for your consideration. I know you have a big heart!
However, I can’t help feeling it’s a type of disease on this site to always assume someone has a problem and needs a lot of advice when anything at all (basically) is mentioned of how something is percieved. There are many “eager helpers” around here who jump in and help when no help is asked for… I certainly don’t feel in need of any advice in a topic where we discuss if behaviour is a milestone of enlightenment. I am contributing to that discussion, not asking for any help. The communication becomes a bit weird when a problem is imposed on me like that, and the issue discussed is ignored…
So, I love your posts, Shanti, I just can’t take them in really, because I sense you are defining a problem for me that I don’t yet experience…
It’s ok, Shanti. It’s a great post and it will come to others who need it in the right time!
The topic as I read it, is about if behaviour milestones are reliable or not. When these swings come, the behaviour seems to go with it. There’s not an increasing stability in better and better behaviour somehow. Can anyone of you hold the “good behaviours” when in low, mindy states? Are behaviours not following the state of mind and emotion? I see them very closely connected.
So… who would know if I’m ready to realize the next day, but today I’m behaving like a grumpy pain in the ass? Does that behaviour say anything of how “far” I have come, then? I never knew when realizations was to occur…
That was my point!
I’m really sorry about that David, I thought everyone had pretty much seen it by now! Don’t let that dissuade you though, it’s a fantastic movie and far more to it than that one scene.