Hi Anthem:
Sorry for the delay coming back. Have been “awakened” with a lot of additional administration lately. 
Yes, nothing wrong with speaking from where we are. But we should keep in mind that suggesting attitudinal knowledge is a two edged sword. My point was to caution that “viewing daily life experiences as the primary path” will work for some and not for others, depending on the degree of pre-existing inner silence/awareness. It is not good advice for beginners especially, most who will do much better in the long run by developing a reliable daily meditation practice.
There is the age-old presumption that knowledge is for “those with eyes to see and ears to hear,” which is pre-existing awareness/silent witness. Nothing wrong with that either. Of all the seeds thrown, a few will sprout, and most will not. So we throw out as many seeds of knowledge as we can and hope for the best.
But the real question is, how do we improve the seeing? the hearing? the sprouting? That is the primary concern in AYP, and why I often challenge advice that says, “Consider the path being to look at it this way,” which is really only for the few who already have the eyes to see and ears to hear.
The way we improve our seeing and hearing is not by developing an attitude, but by working systematically to expand our underlying awareness. For this, something more than an attitude is required. Sure, our attitude can change and even satisfyingly take root in whatever stillness we have, but cultivating basic seeing and hearing beyond that is far more fundamental.
Therefore, I am against encouraging all to engage in passive non-seeking, without qualifying it. For many, seeking will be the essence of their journey for years to come, and this is a good thing. If no seeking means no suffering (a good sales pitch), it can also mean little awakening beyond present awareness, and present suffering (the result of non-relational inquiry).
So…
“Blessed are they who hunger and thirst after righteousness, for they shall be filled.” …and… “Seek and you will find. Knock and the door will open.”
Even “non-seeking” requires that. The art of doing nothing is a something, and that something is bhakti (spiritual desire). What happens as a result of bhakti is practice and divine flow. Then we will find ourselves in a position to experience and suggest attitudinal changes, as you have. But let us not forget where we have come from, because it is important for those we are advising to know, so they will not be fooled into thinking that developing an attitude in the mind is a shortcut to enlightenment/liberation/happiness/non-suffering (or whatever). Not so.
Regarding the “spiritual myths,” neti neti (not this, not this) only works when what is beyond “this and this” (and the mind) is clear abiding awareness/witness. Until then, the myths are rungs on the ladder of increasing wisdom.
All the best!
The guru is in you. 
Totally agreed.
If you seek, you’ll do a sadhana, and results will come (depending on the sadhana you choose).
No seeking=>no sadhana=> no experimenting the truth (in most cases)
Hi Jeff,
We can certainly have different points of view, just my 2 cents worth. Just to clarify one thing though, I am not talking about anger to the extent and duration of road rage. Also, anger may not be the emotion that presents in the situation, but some other. It can be a subtle emotional energy impulse which simply serves to bring the attention firmly into the here and now. It comes, it leaves, and the result is being more alert and having the attention present.
As mentioned, the emotional energy that arises serves to bring the attention to the situation at hand and is critical to illuminate our preferences in the moment. How else would we know to move on from a person deliberately trying to monopolize our time, or know to prevent a child from running into the street, or be sensitive to another person’s needs etc. What prompts a person to respond to a post they don’t agree with? It is very subtle, but there is an emotional impetus at the root. I see life as being about balance in some ways and that emotional energy helps us maintain our balance and respond in a natural way that helps others maintain their balance as well. It is just life free flowing and bouncing off itself as it does. A person can be yelling at you and be very emotional and a calm mute reaction could be the last thing they need to regain their equilibrium or the very thing, it all depends and when our responses are natural, it is usually the very thing that is needed. I am open to responding in any way required.
All emotions that arise are equal in value from my perspective and none better/ or more sinister than others. I see having all emotions functioning naturally as vital to navigating the world with our full potential and keeping our attention more firmly rooted in the here and now. Again small distinction, but just my 2 cents.
Thanks for clarifying, I am not talking about emotions like you describe here but momentary impulses with much less intensity. Thinking the person is an asshole suggests historical thinking that is referencing previously conceived definitions for beliefs etc. I am talking about responding naturally in the moment without historical context. The emotional impulses come, they go and I agree if they are long and drawn out and if we are thinking about them, we are not present in the moment externally but lost in meanings, labels and history. These emotional impulses arise for the situation at hand without any baggage. They arise to provide the necessary “jolt” to be more fully engaged and depart in a nano second, leaving us free respond as the situation requires. Hope this clarifies.
All the best! 
A
Hi Anthem,
Thanks for the discussion (and the slight disagreement ). The question with things like conscious anger (even for a nanosecond) is that it is often just the tip of the proverbial subconscious iceberg. Many are very good at suppressing things like anger, but that does not mean that it has been released and let go. Rather than just react and engage in things like anger, I prefer to use it as a tool to point the way to the underlying subconscious fears and issues. As we release the energy trapped in those obstructions, one finds that jolt you describe to be a constant aspect of our natural state.
Best wishes.
Such perfect clarity and wisdom. Thank you Yogani. Wish many modern teachers that advocate doing nothing could read this, perhaps on a daily basis!
This could be made the description for the Jnana Yoga forum; only because you don’t seem to have much admin stuff going on these days.
Gratitude. 
Hi Yogani,
Sorry, I am equally slow, just getting back as I can fit it in.
You use the term “attitudinal knowledge” which I am taking to mean, encouraging others to take on an attitude or a new fixed belief that they can apply to their lives. I would see this as counter-productive as well. You’ll have to point out where you think you are seeing this in my posts? It is the absence of fixed beliefs and attitudes that releases us from our limiting mental constructs.
This is what is intended in a discussion: If someone says, “that dog is always angry”. If I don’t necessarily believe this and communicate that in my experience the dog is sometimes pleasant as well, it gives a person’s mind the potential to see different possibilities in the situation (or not). People aren’t necessarily going to jump over and say yes, I now see it as you do, the dog is always pleasant and apply this to every interaction with the dog even as it continues to bite them. They have seen/ experienced the dog as angry already, this is real, they may now look for evidence of this assertion that the dog is also pleasant. Or not. They may decide to hold firm to their original idea or something in between. It is an invitation, nothing more, not a new way that should be adopted. If it enables people to see infinite possibilities in every instance then great, if not, nothing lost. As you point out below, potentially another rung on the ladder of wisdom.
I am pretty disciplined about being clear that something is only my opinion/ perspective etc. and not the way things are or that another should see it the way I do. This would all be counter productive in my opinion and a disservice to others.
From where I sit, our daily life is the primary path whether we like it or not. Making a practice of that is something else entirely and as you point out, not for everyone. Also, just to reiterate my previous post, I don’t endorse a particular path for anyone, each path is unique and people can use whatever tools they need for as long as they need them.
[quote]
The way we improve our seeing and hearing is not by developing an attitude, but by working systematically to expand our underlying awareness. For this, something more than an attitude is required. Sure, our attitude can change and even satisfyingly take root in whatever stillness we have, but cultivating basic seeing and hearing beyond that is far more fundamental.
[/quote] Yes, it isn’t about taking on any attitudes but letting go of all attitudes, fixed or limiting beliefs (seeing things only one way). It is the absence of all this that allows for seeing things as they are.
You will have to point out where you believe you are seeing some encouraging for all to take on some passive non-seeking somewhere in this thread? Or are you just stating your position in general on this?
If you re-read the above post, you will find that I see seeking externally as leading to suffering. I point out in the same paragraph that the seeking would be better served if directed internally, (into our hearts) so that we can see. Whether seeking externally is necessary at some point on the path, I have no idea. Personally, I see nothing but eventual dead ends from searching outside of ourselves but perhaps it is the pain of this that eventually drives our desire internally.
Yes there aren’t any short cuts to being free from beliefs that I have found at least. I wouldn’t personally promise any more or less than that, which I would say those other words would imply. Another way it can be said: an ongoing process of recognizing the infinite in every moment and continuously letting this go. I am always learning.
Best wishes,
A
Yes it can be, but anger can also be a natural and useful reaction to a situation at hand that doesn’t have any historical thinking attached to it. For example, if an unprovoked dog bites my hand, I might have an initial reaction of fear that some damage is happening to my body and try to flee or withdraw my hand. If that fails and the dog continues to bite me, some anger may arise which can initiate some other kind of response leading to perhaps more assertive action to stop the unprovoked attack.
My point of view is that all our emotions are useful. Yes they are often indicators of subconscious beliefs, but also at other times vital for providing instant information about my environment from my experience and integral for the natural function of the human being. I don’t see practices as eliminating any emotions over time (nor the potential for any thought), but simply allowing them to operate in a balanced way and to arise and let go in silence like thoughts. Information to be considered, nothing more. If they hang around and infuse a variety of reactions to things that aren’t necessarily happening in the moment, then that is another thing entirely and some opportunity for inquiry, as you point out, is there.
I agree.
[quote]
Rather than just react and engage in things like anger, I prefer to use it as a tool to point the way to the underlying subconscious fears and issues.
[/quote] If a dog is biting my hand, I would prefer to use my anger to extricate myself first. If I am angry because someone didn’t say hello to me, I might inquire if it hung around for any length of time.
In my opinion, emotional responses become more about the external than the internal at a certain point. As long as I have preferences, which I will have while in a body, there will be emotional responses in my opinion, albeit arising and departing in silence.
Let’s say the default state was to indulge in love or bliss at all times. The dog bites my hand, how wonderful I might say, where is my impetus to react or attempt to change the situation? Our bodies take care of that with the emotional energy required in my opinion.
Yes contentedness can be there at all other times, but there is room for all our emotions too.
Just my 2 cents, thanks for engaging with this.
Hi Anthem,
I am not trying to say that there is not a wide range of reactions or that we do not have sort of “instinctual” responses sort of built in. Maybe our difference is in the connotations of the word anger? If a dog bites you, what is your “anger” response? What do you think or do to the dog?
Best regards,
Jeff
Hi Anthem:
Could be wrong, but it still looks like an attitude from here. And even if it were not, and even if it is only your point of view, it still has an influence on others when left unqualified without the prerequisites.
Which raises the question, “What are the prerequisites for developing this experiential point of view?” Can anyone do it right out of the gate at age 23 or 63?
This is where my concern is, not for what it is for you, but what it is for everyone else. That is just my orientation – what is this for the beginner, the intermediate, the advanced? Is it just Anthem’s experience? Okay, so how does that apply to everyone else? Should we forget all this seeking and practice and just let life give us the cues on what is true and what is not? And then we are back to considering who that can work for – yada yada.
Aside from all that, your underlying premise is suspect. Is it really seeking outside that causes suffering? Is it setting goals and working toward them that causes suffering? Is it whether we regard the dog as angry or not that determines our state of being? Is it our beliefs that cause suffering? Must we let go of all that to find peace? I think not, at least not in how we continue to function in the world.
In all of these, it is not the act, attitude, or belief that causes suffering. It is the identification of our awareness with these things (seeing them as part of self) that causes suffering. Likewise, identification with the goal of ending seeking and beliefs will also cause suffering. It is as much a trap as all the rest of it. Again, not necessarily talking about you, but looking across a wide spectrum of seekers.
To emphasize, what ends suffering is not changing our point of view, or attitude, or considering doing so. It is the cultivation of inner awareness that dissolves the identification of self with all of these simultaneously.
Inquiry can be used help dissolve identification, but as we have discussed again and again, the effectiveness of that for any given individual will depend on the degree of abiding inner silence (awareness/witness) present. And that is a function of meditation more than any other practice. It can’t be bypassed. I know you are not saying that it can be bypassed, but by omission there is the implication that it can be.
So what am I asking? Not that you change anything you are doing. Only to consider that others who read about what you are doing can easily misunderstand. When we share what we are doing, that is sure to influence others, and therefore we are obliged to qualify how we got to where we are if we want to convey the whole truth.
By now I think it has been said enough in this discussion, so no need for us to dwell on it. If I have overdone it, forgive me. 
However, you might want to take a closer look at what the real cause of suffering is. Is it our beliefs and motivated actions in the world, or is it the underlying identification of self with all of that?
I have found that there is nothing wrong (binding - causing suffering) with having beliefs, goals and seeking, and they still are functioning fully here, while at the same time having little influence on my sense of self. In stillness, all of these things provide a medium for the divine flow to act in the world in a unifying way. Even prejudices have a role to play in this (like, “that dog is always angry”), being purified as they are released in stillness.
If that is what you are talking about, then it makes perfect sense. But still people ought to know how you got to the understanding of how liberating it is to let intentions and inquiries go in stillness, and where that enabling stillness comes from in the first place.
Oops, I did it again. 
All the best!
The guru is in you.
Interesting the way this topic has gone. Yogani sir, you have once again put it correctly.
The biggest problem with non duality discussions is the only way to have one is to remain silent.
The minute someone goes to talking or writing their mind with all the opinions, emotions likes and dislikes come out no matter how much the writer protests otherwise and people reading it pick up on it.
Invariably the ones attempting to communicate just wind up looking like know it all’s with big egos and allot of serious flaws they appear to not even be aware of.
Not saying this is anthems case because I do agree with Yogani, I am saying this is the case with everyone attempting to discuss Non-Duality and it is likely unavoidable.
MU.
To each his own. Everyone must blaze the trail of their own path. This is not a second hand endeavor. It is ultimately neither structured nor secured by the well intentioned advice of scriptures, stories or procedures that have been found to be effective for others. What follows is more an experiencial report than a statement of fact and is in no way to be interpreted as advice or guidance. I think it will pale in comparison to all the above insightful comments. In my opinion everyone has made a valid and significant contribution.
Generally it takes a fairly long period of consistent application to gradually stabilize in pure awareness, as it percolates to ever deeper levels. How long it takes, however, is according to one’s proclivity for processing the transformation/ realization. And it could theoretically take place in a split second simultaneously. It doesn’t just happen automatically though. Earnestness is involved and required.
The stabilization period may be appropriately viewed as refinement, opening and/or purification. With the advent of blockage removal at progressively deeper levels, some degree of emotional purging is to be expected. Although that would vary considerably on an individual basis.
Prayer and contemplation are viable practices as are the internal martial arts. In general practices - and meditation in particular - are necessary for some people but certainly not everyone. There is no need to disparage the path that others have chosen for themselves, and it would be hard to speculate which path would be best for any given individual anyway. We all have to determine that for ourselves.
While there will be some elements of this journey that may appear to be similar to the paths others are on … in reality this is an individually unique journey and ultimately we must each find our own way through the spiritual wilderness.
love
parvati
Speaking only for myself, but for me, even believing ideas like “it is the cultivation of inner awareness that ends suffering” causes suffering for me. When I identify with beliefs (even positive, “life-affirming” beliefs) like this I find that I am subtly trying to align my path with those that I have put on a pedestal and if I look closely at this I find that it indicates I am not okay with things the way they are and have fallen into misperception.
Love,
Carson 
To Carson
Being okay with things as they are may be a pedestal too.
love
parvati
edited for brevity
Nicely written, good truth.
Question: What does “spiritually advanced” or “spiritual evolved” Human beings even mean??
May I add another Myth?
Once the crown is open and you can see the Lotus Flower and higher chakras and all sorts of other crap, you are spiritually advanced?
Not! Now that I am there, I find I am no where near Sainthood
Slight improvement in behaviour - yes, but still missing the mark more often than not.
[OM]
Sey
Good Observation, I think we have to consider in human enterprise of any kind marketing is always present.
So novice human = young new to human existence being likely but not necessarily limited to those we consider criminals that cannot participate in society in a peaceful manner as they have not yet been human often enough to get it and coexist with others so they are remanded to incarceration facilities since they lack self control.
Here is an example:
I’ll use traffic as it has been used here already.
A person cuts you off or lets say pulls out in front of you but does not accelerate just continues creeping making you slam on the brakes.
- The young type person relatively inexperienced with Human incarnations hits the brakes then in a fit of rage may ram them in the rear bumper or pulls along side the person cursing throwing a tantrum perhaps even sideswiping them or shooting them having an overwhelming desire to get even. This in my view would be a person of lesser self control which is akin to spiritually less advanced, or perhaps it is less experienced with living in the human condition.
At this stage a person is one with their impulses and there is no discriminating witness, action = automatic reaction, you hit me I hit you back harder maybe even kill you for hitting me is the motto. - The next degree up on the rung would like this: the person in question is subjected to the same stimulus is alarmed hits the brakes get pissed off at the jerk in front of them may even hit the horn and lean on it for a long time and or flip them off. This is the extent of the reaction.
At this stage a person is being inflamed to the point of near retaliatory action and it would not take much to tip the balance in favor of violence. It is here where restraint is being practiced the impulse to do something is there and is partially acted upon before reasoning mind manages to abort it completely. At this stage the impulse is felt as it nearly becomes action.
Automatic reaction with restraint, you hit me I hit you back just as hard but only if I can get away with it is the motto.
3.The next degree up on the rung same conditions person is alarmed hits the brakes blows the horn and has elevated blood pressure but does not have such extreme dialog going on in their head as the one before still considers person a jerk separate less deserving of existence and lesser than themselves.
At this stage a person is completely restrained and has self control as they can now feel the impulse to violence and abort it before it becomes anything but they are suppressing it and this leads to extreme frustration.
The Motto here is I wish these damned idiots would learn how to drive. - The next degree Hits the brakes at the same time viewing the rear view mirror and seeing someone tight in behind them controls the speed of their vehicle to compensate for the one in front and behind. Can be alarmed but mostly is dispassionate and feeling calculating an outcome that serves the situation best.
At this stage a person is well aware of what can cause the impulses and knowing they do not want to be placed in situations where they will experience frustration take more responsibility for their position on the road by paying greater attention to their situational awareness and participating in the process by making their own driving more predictable to others.
The motto here is: I have to drive for the other person as well as myself. - In the next degree the driver is aware of what is behind him as well as in front and is scanning the road several car lengths in advance and already realizes there is no hope of making the light so they begin decelerating in advance when the person pops out it is not a surprise but one is still annoyed by such lack of consideration and lack of situational awareness on the other persons part for driving like this. On top of it all the person behind them is impatient so they zoom around only to arrive at the red light seconds in advance of the more controlled one. This driver thinks, my how foolish and is still carrying on dialogs in his head.
In this degree the person not only feels the beginnings of an impulse knows where they lead and become but actively does their best to absentee themselves while still participating on the road.
The motto here is: It is better to let others pass than become entangled with the activity. - The next rung up all conditions remain the same but one feels connectivity with the goings on around them brought about by more inner silence and peace in a participating manner so there is nothing personal whatsoever at all and the goings on are reduced to quantum’s of activities everything is just moving about and there is no meaning attached to any of it.
At this stage Impulses do not even come up in the first place as the samaskaras have unwound to a large degree and inner silence is firmly in place a large degree most of the time.
In this instance the person is driving down an ice coated mountain top and the rear end of the vehicle starts coming around they correct this dispassionately bringing the rear end back to straight then it goes the other way they correct this then it goes the other way.
Realizing this is the way it is going to happen they abort all further attempts at correcting the physics of the situation and simply think well ok God how bad is this going to be? and witness the vehicle spinning down the mountain with them in it watching the taillights in front of them and the headlights behind as they spin. As they spin they fully appreciate the seriousness of what is happening and in what could be their final moments as a whole living person thoroughly enjoy the moment by being here now to the largest extent possible.
Time then dilates and slows, while this is going on one feels their tiny self expanding and are one with God and the feeling is that of an electric magnetic embrace being within the cosmic womb and the reality of the situation is what it is but the reality of what you are encompasses the event transpiring in linear time. It is alright and there is nothing left to do but witness and accept the impact by relaxing into just being.
Once the vehicles nose strikes the concrete barrier at he bottom of the mountain and is on the side of the road in the piled up snow the person makes sure they are not sticking out in the road confirming this gets out of the vehicle and asses’s the damage then gets back on the road or not after observing traffic coming down that same mountain at a much reduced rate of speed after having been treated to the spectacle that just transpired.
This is from actual experience.
Still this person can experience bouts of backsliding to number 5. in the list. So beyond this I really can not speak most of the time I find myself firmly between 5 and 6. and always even in sleep the witness.
But does that make me spiritually advanced? I don’t think so I believe what it makes me is experienced with living human lifetimes, and perhaps they are the same thing?
Things like you describe are indeed milestones as you have experienced but experience is the path of yoga which is the opposite of non duality ( so kind of out of place here but a valid statement any way ) it is still a good observation.
To consider such experiences happening as induced by sadhana which is in and of itself an artificial practice may be forcing experiences that come in due time and therefore are not equal to the statement of being indicative of spiritually advanced or not.
This leads to the the topic of inner silence. Can Sadhana lead to inner silence? the answer is yes it can. Can a person arrive at inner silence by just living I suppose so if they have had enough lifetimes.
So if we take this into consideration the sales pitch of Kriya for example starts to make sense the airplane route to self realization versus the bullock cart of plodding through numerous human lifetimes.
This then means that it is a difference that makes no difference. How one arrives at more inner silence and operating from the witness state to increasing degrees appears to be the operative thing that counts no matter what path is taken to arrive.
Inner silence is the reward of sadhana, Inner silence the dawning of Self Realization. Inner silence the reward of living many lifetimes. These days I greatly appreciate the inner silence most of all, being the witness gets boring the silence is always EVER NEW.
On the topic of Advaita a word forgotten long ago it is just something that comes in degrees over time on it’s own so making a big stink about it seems counter intuitive.
Trying to talk about it even worse than attempting to describe Samadhi. In my opinion it is better to discuss it in theory and practice related to it one may do as any attempt to discuss it takes one into the realm of experience which is not the same as experience requires duality.
There is also a danger with Advaita and that is the deception of intellect. I suspect people truly capable of Advaita or self inquiry alone are rare. This is one of the reasons I strongly support Yogani’s posts in this thread.
One of the most well recognized and respected persons ever to walk the planet in recorded times Ramana Maharishi who was all about self Inquiry is recorded as saying the ones best suited to his teaching were already like dry wood ready to catch fire.
My first exposure to this teacher was through the book Concentration by a student of his writing under the name Mouni Sadhu when I was 14 or 15 years old. More on him here.
http://www.mounisadhu.com/mouni-sadhu-books.html
I myself have always been too damp but at least recognize it and this is where I fear many are fooling themselves which is extremely easy to do with this approach lots of pundants few sages, even fewer saints.
Okay this was too long.
Definitely too long but much appreciated
I particularly like the “Time dilates and slows” as I have been experiencing just that. If I stay chill and move out of the way, “I” get to do everything I need to do on time!
Sey
Hi all,
when reading the initial post, the answer here was also, neither nor. The moment a word forms in the mind, the problem begins 
Even the intention to form a word… but what to do if it just happens 
To the rest of the posts, a story of a yogi comes to my mind, who was sitting in the himalayan regions in some asana and meditating. A sadhu came by and said to this yogi “hey, why are you meditating, there is no need to meditate, you are already this and that” The yogi not responding, sitting in bliss. The yogi later said to the audience “I prefer sitting in bliss rather than walking and talking :P” This yogi is known as Gurunath, just couldn’t find the youtube vid anymore 
So what to say about all of this, it is everyones own preference. As you like,
peace friends
Some paths require sitting in the mud, not in the bliss.
@Holy: Looks like Gurunath has started talking quite a bit