wow!
this is too much mind-stuff for me!
you guys are amazing!
is not all desire in actuality spiritual desire?
that’s my understanding, but I could be wrong.
it’s what I’ve read and it seem correct, but I and my sources could be wrong.
or are there varieties and degrees of desire?
if so then what to do?
or?
what does the word ‘temptation’ mean to you in this context?
JDas wrote:
"is not all desire in actuality spiritual desire? "
Good one JDas and I think it is true. But the problem is that people don’t realize that. And when we concentrate on one earthly thing after another, it dilutes and distracts from spiritual desire. I think it requires our intention for the desire to become spiritual.
Like the person who eats to swallow emotions they don’t want to face, we become absorbed in earthly desires and ignore their underlying cause.
O my god ! So many responses…
Now…let me think how I am going to manage to reply all of you friends.
Before replying, I thank all of you for taking interest in this post. And please do not mind if there is any disagreement. (We all are spiritual seekers). What I am feeling here that you all are supportive and willing to clear my doubts.
Let me do it one by one. (But I request you all to read the post completely so that you can know the different views and what I responded to others)
@Etherfish !
Then when this connection is established you will find either that there are no holy books or gurus, or many books are holy and many gurus are holy, or sometimes both
Sex isn’t something you give up to be spiritual. What you must give up is concentrating on sex in the worldly sense where it is only in the sex organs, and only for lust and procreation.
I COMPLETELY agree with you for without any doubt.
@Kirtanman !
Tantra Yogas of various types are found within both Hindu and Buddhist traditions, and they have very little to do with the sexual energy focus of what some people have come to call neo-Tantra (the sexually-focused sets of practices and energy work often called “Tantra”, in current usage).
I had heard about this “neo-Tantra” but have not read much about it. But the difference you gave between these two is good for basic understanding. Thanks.
“the Shiva Sutras, the Vijnanabhairava Tantra, the Yoga Spandakarika”
I have not read these books. Are they available online (preferrably in Hindi translation, as Hindi is my mother languagle)
That may be one way to look at it (presumably a view from a specific bhakta path) but I respectfully disagree that the view you describe above was the primary purpose for the statues / carvings at Khajuraho.
Certainly, it is for specific Bhakta path. The same thing is seen by different persons with different ways and they interpret it differently. I did not say anything that is different from you, may be I did not point out it in respect of Tantra and primary focused it with Bhakti Yoga followers.
- A sexually ill person will simply see the nudity in these curving either he pretends to follow Tantra. (Tamsic Nature)
- A yogi who is in confused of illusions whatever yoga (Tantra, Bhakti or Gyan) he follows, comes in this category. He will be confused. He will not get pleasure in looking at those nude carvings with “Maithuna” but he will ask himself “Why they are there ?” What is the reason behind it ? etc. (like me, I put myself here in this category as far as I know myself)(Rajsic Nature)
- An enlightened person (full of knowledge whatever yoga Tantra or Bhakti, he fellows) like Abhinavagupta will either look or not look at them and will go inside without much concern. According to your writings and knowledge, I may also put you in this category though I am not sure for it because I do not know you well. (Satvic Nature)
So, basically what I told is not different from you. If there is any difference then it is in expression. But again, if you feel there is another difference, please let me know.
here is an article on this symbolism by tantric author and University Professor, David Gordon White.
I will go through the link that you provided. I do not know anything about the professor you mentioned but I will see it.
You see, there are many authors and their interpretations. And please don’t mind but basically, I always feel that analysis of westerner researchers and philosophers are self centered (Katrine, who was first to comment on this discussion also agrees with this, see the comment)For example, you say that sexuality and spirituality can not be isolated from each other, but if I give you another example of “Shri Aurobindo” (who is also enlightened master), he rejects it completely and says that “there is no relation between sexuality and spirituality”.
See the link: http://gopal4mission.wordpress.com/2009/04/04/greatly-inspiring-brahmacharya-quotes/
And go in “Quotes by shri Aurobindo” and read his views (especially no.8)…“Sex and sexuality and all that springs from sex and testifies to its existence had to be banned and discarded from the spiritual life…”
"So how it is possible that some enlightened masters say there is relation while others say there is no relation. So, above all, we have to practice and experiment as “Buffle37” commented here on this discussion.
@Buffle37 !
I am afraid you misunderstood me
Yes…you are right. May be, I did not get you well. Sorry for that.
Bullshit. Nobody, no books, no gurus, no saviors can say you what God is, you have to discover by yourself and that is the beauty of it. Of course, books or Gurus can show the way but it is all, you don’t have to believe them, you just have to try and see by yourself.
I agree with you. That is the foremost fact and that alone can bring peace and love in the world.
@Chiron !
Disagree, i think these engravings are a message to remind humanity that spirituality is not separate from sexuality. There are similar engravings on the Egyptian pyramids and the ancient tunnels in Peru.
I, somehow, agree with what you say. But when it comes to relation of sexuality and spirituality, I do not agree or disagree that “Spirituality is separated or not separated from sexuality”. But it seems that you agree with it. Please see the comment I passed to “Kirtanman” that some enlightened masters agree with it while others (one of the example is Shri Aurobindo) mainly from India deject this philosophy. Of course, they talk about sex sublimation but sexual activities (with are there in neo-Tantra, as mentioned by “Kirtanman”) MUST be completely banned in spiritual life. They disagree with “Kamasutra” or “Curvings of Khajuraho”. And they are also enlightened.
@JDas !
is not all desire in actuality spiritual desire?
No according to me all desire are not spiritual desire. Alexander and Hitler also had desire, were their desire spiritual !!!
Forget them. Let me give you another example. A desire of attraction to the opposite sex can NOT be considered as spiritual according to me. I have seen many people on public networks making friends and friends and without knowing them personally, a girl ‘A’ writes to another girl or boy ‘B’, that “you are really good person, keep it up”, “you are fantastic”.
But I claim, that once they personally meet each other and understand each other, most of the time, they will fed up with each other. Even in husband and wife, brothers and sisters and intimate relatives, there is disagreement, so where is the spirituality !
Bottom line is that…“We have to explore ourselves to distinguish that which desire is divine and which is worldly.”
So…finally I think “All desires are not spiritual desires”.
They have desire to make friends and friends and most of them are youngsters and they do NOT even think what is goodness and badness. The desire is there but where is the spirituality, please explain me !
“degrees of desire”
To be spiritual and to know spirituality, our desire MUST be on righteous side and there MUST be a higher degree for that. The discussion is one way to know the views of others and to get them well. Why I think in one way and why “Kirtanman” thinks other way, has a lot to go deep in spirituality.
Waiting for your valuable comments…
Satchitanand
Hi JDas !
I agree with Etherfish , he is right. What he said is 100 % true according to me. Well said Etherfish.
“the problem is that people don’t realize that. And when we concentrate on one earthly thing after another, it dilutes and distracts from spiritual desire. I think it requires our intention for the desire to become spiritual.”
Regards,
Satchitanand
Hi JDas !
Etherfish put the views in short and in better way than me, though I feel that the meaning is the same.
Regards,
Satchitanand
Hi Satchidanand & All,
Satchidanand, thanks for your thoughtful responses; I very much appreciate your overall communication style.
Regarding the varying attitudes of enlightened masters:
Sri Aurobindo, for whatever his reasons may have been, was very sex-averse.
Ramana Maharshi, also recognized by many as a great, enlightened sage, was told of the fact that Sri Aurobindo welcomed married couples at his ashram, as long as they did not sleep together.
Sri Ramana responded, “What would be the point of that?”
Basically, it boils down to the sense of self (or lack thereof) held by a given teacher, and/or the sense of self being communicated to, in terms of the students or the disciples.
Sex and other physical desires and sensual pleasures are often recommended against, sometimes in early sadhana, or sometimes for all of it, depending upon the path or school in question.
Conversely, original tantra (as opposed to neo-tantra) was very open with sexual experience, but with the express understanding that it was never to be used as an excuse for lustful behavior, and thus, could really only be practiced by those who had realized the Self.
Obviously, sex and sexuality are inherent interests of the body-mind, in a similar manner that food, sleep and breathing are inherent interests – they are all an obvious and natural part of the design.
However, these things can become confused with the whole of reality, and artificial over-focus on the physical, emotional, mental and sensual results .,… binding the attention of inherently-liberated awareness to the fluctuations of the gunas (Tamas, Rajas, Sattva, as you mentioned in your comments).
And so, is following an ascetic or celibate path the answer?
For some, maybe, but especially in our modern, primarily “householder” lives, probably not.
It’s not the engaging in natural activity – any natural activity – that is the problem, or that is spiritually negative.
These things are just physical.
The bondage is maintained at the mental and emotional levels (both sub-conscious and pseudo-conscious, i.e. unconscious memory, and the veil of maya - thinking mind - in present-moment experience), via the always partial, always ego-oriented evaluations of conditioned mind.
That is why tantric paths can be so risky, especially if there is any emphasis on sex (not all tantric paths are sexual; there are celibate Buddhist monks in tantric orders) - for those who may be motivated by desire of various types, or who may be subject to over-attraction to specific experiences, and so on, the very aspects of tantra that might benefit them, end up holding them back, spiritually.
All paths have this equivalent of being too lost in the realms of form (the original issue – made worse when “worldly form” is simply exchanged for “spiritual form”). Even bhakti paths have this issue … devotion can become over-emotionality, and conviction that one’s ishta is better than other ishtas, as opposed to being rightly understood as a means, or vehicle to our own wholeness.
True bhakti is complete surrender - utter openness.
True jnana is unbound inquiry - utter openness.
True tantra is unified experiencing - utter openness.
As we practice, and thus create a foundation for a more still, open and complete consciousness and experience of life, the specific aspects of specific paths, whether bhakti, jnana, tantra, or anything else, that may be useful for us, will arise as areas of interest.
It’s all about intention - what is our intention?
Sex can be pure prayer.
Prayer can be lust.
It’s not the form – it’s the meaning, or not, that we give to any form.
Dropping the evaluations of limited mind is the gateway to wholeness.
Daily practices are the foundation upon which this gateway is built.
This has been my experience, anyway.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
Hi Kirtanman !
Thanks for your detailed reply. I too appreciate your knowledge and agree with your overall comment. Especially these quotes:
“However, these things can become confused with the whole of reality, and artificial over-focus on the physical, emotional, mental and sensual results .,… binding the attention of inherently-liberated awareness to the fluctuations of the gunas (Tamas, Rajas, Sattva, as you mentioned in your comments).”
I agree with you.
Sex and other physical desires and sensual pleasures are often recommended against, sometimes in early sadhana, or sometimes for all of it, depending upon the path or school in question.
Yes…I welcome it with 100 % acceptance.
According to general view and my personal view too…"Sensual Pleasures MUST be strictly banned in early sadhana. However, once the aspirant is enlightened or free from duality, this condition DOES NOT apply. He is beyond Gunas. Whatever he does, he does freely because he he is NOT affected from pleasure-pain, loss-gain, happiness-sorrow, married-unmarried state, friends-enemies.
In addition, Let me mention that:
In Bhakti yoga of “Vaishavism” sector of India, the aspirants are taught to give up all the worldly desires including sex (complete abstinence for unmarried aspirants) and (Giving up sex for married people after progeny)
While in “Shaivism” sector, there is moderate acceptance for worldly attachments.
Daily practices are the foundation upon which this gateway is built
I agree with your saying.
Thanks again for sharing your views here on this post.
Regards,
Satchitanand
Hi Kirtanman !
Thanks for your detailed explanation. And I appreciate your knowledge. I fully agree with your sayings that:
Sex and other physical desires and sensual pleasures are often recommended against, sometimes in early sadhana, or sometimes for all of it, depending upon the path or school in question.
I do agree that in the early stages of sadhana, aspirants MUST be strictly banned for worldly pleasures and yoga practices MUST go under regular observance of a well qualified teacher(according to me particularly Kundalini and Tantra, which are risky compare to other yoga methods). Once an aspirant gets a higher level of understanding and understands this illusion of maya and duality of nature, he can do whatever he wants because he is free for joy and sorrow, gain or loss, happiness and sadness, comforts and discomforts etc.
However, these things can become confused with the whole of reality, and artificial over-focus on the physical, emotional, mental and sensual results .,… binding the attention of inherently-liberated awareness to the fluctuations of the gunas (Tamas, Rajas, Sattva, as you mentioned in your comments).
Well said. You are right.
Daily practices are the foundation upon which this gateway is built.
Yes…I do agree that without daily practices, just like worldly achievements, we can NOT achieve our spiritual goals.
Thanks again.
Regards,
Satchitanand
Hi Kirtanman !
I am heartily thankful to you for your above detailed comment. I appreciate your knowledge.
I welcome your views with full acceptance.
Regards,
Satchitanand
Yes…I welcome it with 100 % acceptance.
According to general view and my personal view too…"Sensual Pleasures MUST be strictly banned in early sadhana. However, once the aspirant is enlightened or free from duality, this condition DOES NOT apply. He is beyond Gunas. Whatever he does, he does freely because he he is NOT affected from pleasure-pain, loss-gain, happiness-sorrow, married-unmarried state, friends-enemies.
Thanks again for sharing your views here on this post.
Regards,
Satchitanand
Hi Satchidanand, Thanks for your comments and observations. I think this was clear in my original post, but just to be sure: My statement above regarding sex, or lack thereof, in sadhana, wasn't connected with any view; it was purely a statement regarding what goes on in certain paths. I understand you do have a related view, and that's fine. My view, if it can be called such, is that the exact path and practices that may be helpful for one person, or not helpful for another, is a very individual thing -- and cannot really be evaluated at the level of mind. That's because everyone has different vasanas (obstructions, conditioning based in egoic memory), which cause different emphasis to be placed on given attachments and aversions. The ideal sadhana for any of us, is the path and set of practices which best helps us open past our conceptual limitations, including our limited sense of self. As we progress in our sadhana, we open to our own highest consciousness, which helps all facets of sadhana and life to become more clear -- as Yogani says, "The Guru is in you". Wholeheartedly, Kirtanman :slight_smile:
You quoted some great Indian yogis advocating celibacy to preserve the energy of semen. THey are right that celibacy saves up a lot of energy as compared to having frequent ejaculations. However, if you have tantric sex properly you can preserve your seed, save your energy and actually increase it. My teacher who spent for years as a budhist monk in the tibetan tradition knows the benefits of celibacy very well. He says that having tantra style sex gives him about twice the energetic benefit that celibacy gave him. THis matches what is written in tantric journals and taoist sex manuals and hte experience of otehr practioners I have talked to. So strictly in terms of energy efficiency the best advice you can give to someone on the yogic path would not be to be celibate but to have tantric sex. WHen/if you get a partner you can do your own experiment. Go for three months as a celibate tehn have tantric sex in the style of Diane Richardson and what is instructed here: reuniting.info and compare the results.
Oh my god, sheesh…
STOP following all these rules. No seriously! If you want to feel free and alive and blissfull your actions should not be the opposite.
See if an awakened soul has no interest in sex (for example) it does not mean that it makes you awake if you forbid yourself to have interest in sex. end of the story.
You can’t imitate truth. And it makes me angry when I see how people blindly follow instructions and when they do it with discipline they feel better than those who don’t although they don’t say it / think it loud to the others or just in their heads. And I hate it when they try to change us because we are not holy/divine/spiritual enough. WE ARE THE SPIRIRT HOW THE HECK ARE WE NOT SPIRITUAL?.. sorry for the outburst.
We don’t need to change our bodies or souls. Oh and by the way India got pretty “Western”, too, didn’t it? I think in our world it does not make sense to cut it into countries although in the past India was very spiritually orientated.
Oh and by the way I think I like sex. Not because I can reach higher spiritual states but just for the love/fun of it. I love sex with a partner I love and oh my golly! - even with a partner I don’t love 
So what? Can you deny that it feels good? Is everyone so driven into seeking for “more” that they can’t relax and enjoy the “unholy” or “worldly” stuff?
I like how there are plenty of serious seekers on these forums but you better wash that “divine” bs out of your brain because the mundane is divine and for me it is not about being so super divine and ending up as a spiritual snob. Even when I enjoy “higher” states of perception filled with deepest of love I enjoy drinking a beer with a good friend.
I might be wrong but please love yourself the way you are, you deserve THIS, which is the truth. You deserve better than the show you’re playing on yourself.
Love, Escapado
THAT…was B E A utiful !
Welcome to the AYP forums Escapado!
Everything is Divine.
Do what you are drawn to and don’t hurt anyone.
Love <3
@markern and for all !
This is a new turning point to this post.
All other commentators seemed to be equal in Tantric Sex vs. Pure Bhakhi Yoga. I had received a mixed views and most of the commentators seemed to me very liberal in adopting a path according to condition, stage and choice.
But I sensed that “markern” has brought a new vision to his post. Thanks “markern”.
Well…I do not know much Buddhist and Tao traditions, and, of course, what your teacher was saying is right in one context because I have also read a little about it: See the link:
http://ezinearticles.com/?Semen-Retention&id=54421
“In times gone by, the more well-to-do Chinese had many concubines. These were women that the man of the house would engage in sexual pleasure with. It was thought that he had so many women just for pleasure, and because he was rich, he could afford so many woman. It was thought, that he had so many women so he could “lay his seed” in them. Actually, he was bedding them to make them reach climax, this way he could steal their energy. How could these men sleep with so many women and not reach orgasm themselves? How were they able to keep their semen, and steal their lovers life-force? They practiced what is called semen retention exercises.”
But, what I have seen is that (I am telling it in the context of Indian Scholars and Spiritual Personalitie)
Whatever revolution (changes) are made in the society, have been MOSTLY brought by those who follow a moderate (Self control and Sexual Abstinence) life style with perfect control over mind and its worldly desires. And NOT by those who USED to practice vigorous Tapas in caves and preserving energies using Tantra or other methods. They could enlightened themselves that way, but I have hardly heard that those practitioners have brought a new philosophy or they have given light to community at large.
Most of the Indian Spiritual Personalities advocate celibacy over other methods because the energy saved is automatically used for creative purpose of the mankind and for the spiritual progress of individual and for society. These people bring revolution.
For example, Swami Vivekananda (from India), he was a young scholar and spiritual leader, when he addressed people of America, he addressed like this:
He had the power to influence everyone. And he did too. BUT…
I have hardly seen or heard about anyone (either it is from ancient India or China or Buddhist nation) who changed the world with his Tantra or Taoist practices.
I will be thankful if you know such personalities and name them here so that I can read about them and know more about them.
Regards,
Satchitanand
Hello Sat Chit Ananda
intresting topic…i think that one should be completely honest about the presence of the sexual urge in him or herself…repressing does not help…a strong libido definitely helps in spritiual evolution…with time the libido will change its aspect
check osho book called from sex to superconscioness…it provides good insights
…meanwhile tantra can be used to preserve energy…also moderation and sticking to one partner is my personal goal…slowly it will evolve to hugs and thoughts sharing and just to be happy with the silent presence of the partner :))
…
also the explanation about Khajuraho temples is very accurate…
…
you see controlling the sexual urge is a very difficult task…like controlling the mind…it is like reversing the flow of the ganges back to its source ie gangotri…
so we have to take it easy
all the best
maheswari
Hi escapado and all !
Thanks for your comment. I also welcome your outburst.
Which rules…???
We follow the rules for the benefits and welfare of ours. There are social rules for society, legal rules installed by governments and of course, in family also, we have family rules.
So, do NOT we obey all these rules !! So, likewise, there are spiritual rules also. As “Kirtanman” has said in this post and I agree with that "In early spiritual practices, we MUST follow the rules because rules MAY or MAY NOT affect already enlightened soul BUT for those who are in the beginning of their practices, they MUST abide by the rules.
First of all, do NOT get angry as it anger is against spirituality. Second, I feel that you are thinking that on this post, we are STRICT to one method over another. NO…It is NOT like that. In my early post, I have mentioned that “I USE TO READ MORE AND MORE ABOUT TANTRA AND STARTING SOLO TANTRIC METHODS”. So, please understand that we are NOT against each other. We are just putting our views and get to know MORE about what other spiritual seekers are experiencing.
For example, in my last post, I gave one example of Swami Vivekananda, NOT to force you all to follow him. I gave that example JUST to tell you about his views. If you read Indian History, you will find that he was NOT an ordinary being, he was one of the greatest spiritual personalities of modern India.
Now, this way, all other commentators got to know about him (I provided the links also). Same way, I also ask for the links from other commentators. (You can see the previous posts.)
I AM SORRY IF YOU FELT LIKE THAT. NO BODY HERE IS TELLING YOU UNHOLY OR IMPUTE. AND, OF COURSE, NOBODY WANTS TO CHANGE YOU.
According to me:
- A spiritual person NEVER sees himself superior to others. He sees the divine light in everyone. For him, even the lower animals and birds are also spiritual souls and he loves them. (That is why, in ancient India and especially in Bhakti Yoga Tradition of India, NON-VEGETARIAN is NOT ALLOWED. The devotees ONLY take pure Satvic food make of rice, milk, wheat, fruits and vegetables. (Now, again, I am not going to change anyone, I am just putting my views.). Those devotees think that “How we can kill and eat a creature ONLY for the sake of our taste and pleasure”.
- The spiritual seeker is also humble and kind. He puts his views very politely and listens to others views very kind heartily. Because, he thinks himself more inferior than the straw in the street (as per Lord Chaitanya Mahaparbhu, who was ancient spiritual soul of eastern India), he always bows down to others and never OPPOSE them unless something is going against DHARMA.
- He always practice to conquer ANGER, LUST, GREED and OTHER DESIRES. This way he NEVER gets outburst.
This is spiritual in true sense according to my views even if we are not enjoying worldly things or awakening Kundalini or or getting salvation or eternal bliss.
Yes…you are right that is why India lost ancient reputation. The past is glorious but unfortunately not the present. All of us know that Yoga originated in India for thousand of years before but now VERY FEW practice yoga. A large part of Indian community is MORE interested in MOVIES, CINEMAS and CRICKET. But, when it is Yoga and spiritual talks, People get less interest. People spend much money on worldly pleasure, they each rubbish things and when they get sick and unhealthy, they RUST to Yoga and proper living and eating. Is it a wise act ???
So, I agree that India has lost its glorious past but may be it will gain it again and I appreciate that westerners are MUCH interested in Yoga and systematic life.
In Indian and Chinese History, Bodhidharma, an ancient Buddhist Monk (Buddhism flourish in India but later moved to China and Japan) from India traveled to China and started to teach martial arts there(though some sources say that martial arts were practiced there even before his arrival). Now the condition is that martial art is practiced and encouraged more in Japan and China compare to India. Is it good in context of India ??? NO.
Now, we all have heard about “Nude Yoga” which is widely spreading in western countries and many are following. At least for me, I have never heard that in India “Nude Yoga” was ever encouraged or practiced PUBLICLY. For me, it is WRONG, but I do NOT get outburst.
See What I feel is that:
Regards,
Satchitanand
Hi cosmic !
Thanks for your reply. But I think neither me (as I have cleared) nor other commentator is hurting anyone. Our posts are to share the views and to know each other better. If someone gets hurt, he get hurt because of the ego that is deep hidden in human nature.
And you see, here we have to understand that greed, anger, ego, jealously, hatred, lust are our true enemies and our own nature is their residence. They are deep hidden in us. So, we have to get victory over them. When we use words i.e. I hate those, I get angry, I get outburst, we have to improve ourselves. When natural coolness, kindness comes then we have conquer the enemies hidden within and we throw them out. This way we conquer anger and then WE DO NOT FEEL THAT SOMEONE IS HURTING US. We see beyond respect and disrespect It is the purpose of being in mundane and spiritual life.
Thanks again and please let us know "Is it you who felt being hurt ?.
Regards,
Satchitanand
Hi Maheshwari !
Thanks for being part of this discussion. Here I welcome you the same way I welcomed you for that another post.
I hope you sense that I am not against Tantra or any other method for spiritual progress. I do not know much about Taoist tradition, Tantra tradition and western analysis and philosophy, so this discussion has given me a chance to see the views of others, where I can interact with westerner practitioners also. I did NOT know even to put it in the right sub-forum, before I had put it in “Satsang” forum.
So you all can understand that my intention is NOT to hurt feeling of any other. I am new to this forum and for me what I feel I expressed. And yes, I admit that most of my views are based on VERY GREAT SPIRITUAL LEADERS OF INDIA. It is NOT like, I am giving my views, I am doing a research like work and trying to understand the thinking of eastern and western philosophers, the commonness and differences. (Because I feel that on this subject, the difference is there.)
In case, someone gets hurt from my views, I personally ask sorry for that.
Regards,
Satchitanand
Hello satchitanand
Thank you for expressing your views. Please understand that I don’t accuse anyone of hurting anyone. My heart felt to offer some words of Love and encouragement to whoever might read this. Whatever path brings each person to God is perfect for them, and very beautiful. Whether it is Bhakti, Tantra, sex, celibacy, etc. That’s all I meant.
No, I don’t feel hurt. I feel wonderful. Thank you for caring enough to ask
My love to you <3
With Love and Gratitude
cosmic