Dear Etherfish,all,
Having just started reading ‘This house is on Fire’ the biography of my satgurus guru I would encourage others to read it and suggest you will find the answers in his story and words.It is certainly inspiring.
L&L
dave
‘the mind can see further than the eyes’
Moderator note: Is this it?
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1883879523/002-4832960-2417621?v=glance&n=283155&n=507846&s=books&v=glance
Anything you do from mind is just fictional drama. Would you condemn someone for something they dreamed at night? We are likewise living in a dream when we delude ourselves into thinking we are mind and that God (or anything else) is separate. An enlightened person watches helplessly as people chase their own tales, investing more and more deeply into a dream filled with misery rather than awakening to a peaceful reality.
Getting back to your point, when I was very young, and had the issues kids have when they first get self-conscious about nudity, I used to worry about invisible people seeing me naked. Then I realized that it’s silly to be uptight about nakedness in front of invisible people, because they see everyone naked. Not bad for a six year old, and the realization still stands up.
The more I travel this path, the more I watch and observe, the more certain I become that surrenedered people don’t turn into big famous teachers, or that surrendered people who turn into big famous teachers inevitably reattach (hence all the problems with so many of the gurus). Not being the most insightful person in the world, I’m certain that vast numbers of other people have noticed what I’ve noticed - that making a big thing out of yourself is really really going the wrong way - and have faded into the background. How many? Doesn’t matter. In the end it’s all unity, anyway. These aren’t superheroes, they’re just people who got enough mud off their windshields to understand what they always were in the first place.
The guy who sells me my newspaper who, unknown to me, says a little prayer for me as I leave his kiosk each morning means a lot more to me than a self-proclaimed master in flowing white robes with a practiced warm loving smile, tons of charisma and in-your-face spiritual vibrations. It’s important to remember that spirituality isn’t a “style”! Anyone who projects their ego at all (much less that big) - who wants you to see how very spiritually accomplished they are - has built up what we’re trying to reduce (awareness of pride leads to pride of awareness, etc etc etc.). As you clean out all your gunk, there’s no “there” there anymore. It’s all just slippery emptiness in a sea of love (living in an otherwise indistinguishable body for a while). There’s just no place for greatness. If you spot greatness or spirituality, it’s the mind. Beware the loop.
i agree with your statement about people who make a big deal about
themselves, and big famous teachers maybe being on the wrong track.
But it’s quite possible that we are surrounded by enlightened
teachers and don’t know it. That’s why working on ourselves is the
most important thing.
After all, if some of us are getting close, it’s likely we could have enlightened people helping us. People like your newspaper guy. . .of course he’ll do something obvious to throw your suspicion off.
We’re all actors in this dream, and someone who could see through
the dream all the time might be a supreme actor. Maybe the guy in
flowing white robes, playing a part he feels is hilarious. Or
a homeless guy, pretending life sucks while enjoying every
minute of it.
Etherfish
A spin or two off that – first, Eckhart Tolle said almost exactly the same thing.
So, the question is, by lauding spiritual ‘realizers’ are we just setting more and more traps? Are we closing off an exit door from Maya with all our lauding of spiritual realizers and the building-up of spiritual ‘attainment’? Making sure that the exit door leads straight back in?
>> These aren’t superheroes, they’re just people who got enough mud off their windshields to understand what they always were in the first place.
Should we be in the business at all of thinking that various spiritual teachers are the greatest beings that ever lived, or is that just all unhealthy nonsense?
David have you done Tolle’s exercises for being very focused in the present, connecting to the energy field etc. and do you find them helpful?
David, I don’t know. Best advice: keep doing AYP until you know.
Thanks Jim.
Yes Lili, I did find Eckhart Tolle helpful. I had more or less already heard everything he said, but for whatever reason, when he said it it hit home for me better than others.
-D
“Should we be in the business at all of thinking that various spiritual teachers are the greatest beings that ever lived, or is that just all unhealthy nonsense?”
Great question!
Despite the benefits of darsan, the great teachers have been so gifted that their methods turn out to be a cruel joke for the typical person who wants enlightenment.
We need results and AYP is the place to get them.
Darshan without delivering the practices inculcates an impoverished strain of bhakti that we all can do without.
-Yoda
Dear Yogani,
Yes the link you gave for ‘this house is on fire’ was the corrct book.truly inspirational.
L&L
dave
‘the mind can see further than the eyes’
Hari OM
Hello Folks,
the conversation is uplifting…
as I read I cannot help but think what I have been taught:
Enlightenment is the utmost in simplicity.
Perhaps we miss it due to this simplicty that makes us over-explain and ponder it so. I know I enjoy disussing Moksha and a chance to try and express IT ( Brahman)…it brings one closer via understanding, but engages the “root” of enlightenment - the quality of consciousness.
I aim not certain if you have the same experience, but all I know it is a satvic discussion.
Why is this?? I belive its due to engaging Consciousness which is IT.
Brahman is consciousness. No matter how close or far away I am [ or you are] from this thing call englightenment - it is right here in me expressed as consciousness , and when I engage IT, I am a better being for doing so.
“Holy baths have been taken in sacred rivers like the Ganges, the sixteen kinds of gifts have been given, sacred mantras have been muttered by the crores - all these, verily are in vain to him by whom the Self has not been realised” the Upanishads
All glory to HIM who breathes out the Ved.
Peace,
Frank in SanDiego
“Should we be in the business at all of thinking that various spiritual teachers are the greatest beings that ever lived, or is that just all unhealthy nonsense?”
Not unhealthy in the physical sense, but definitely nonsense!
Thinking spiritual teachers are the greatest is what has led
millions of people astray, and delayed them on their paths.
I say test the knowledge and practices of teachers to see
where it leads you. Test it long enough to know if you’re
on the right path. If you are on the right path, you should
be able to recognize new information God sends you for your
help.
Etherfish
ST Paul in 1. Thessalonians V. 21 said: “Prove all things, hold fast that which is good”.
I am not a practicing Christian but I think this answers the question perfectly.
Blessings
RICHARD
What an enlightening topic 
“Should we be in the business at all of thinking that various spiritual teachers are the greatest beings that ever lived, or is that just all unhealthy nonsense?”
I myself see them as no different than myself (I dont mean that in an egotistic way… we are no different to anyone else). One can say they are me. So many greatly separate themselves in their own minds from the masters etc by not holding themselves in the same regard. We are all one though.
“Did ya ever wonder/ponder why are there not more Enlighted folks walk’n round?”
I dont think they often tend to show themselves in a like big time kind of way, we have enough big examples of them so why do we need more big examples?. An Enlightened one can help others in the simplest of ways, whether it is just a simple smile at someone … or just a kind word. That could be enough to change anothers life. Some times the little deeds can be the greatest!
(I dont know how many will understand this but here goes, something which just came to me for the spiritually addicted lol, its fun making up something like zen koan 
. Can anyone figure it out…
Someone looks for a tree in a forest…never seeing the tree though. The tree got walked past hundreds of times but was never actually recognised. Where was the tree? Why did he/she miss seeing the tree?
"An enlightened person watches helplessly as people chase their own tales, investing more and more deeply into a dream filled with misery rather than awakening to a peaceful reality. "
Maybe the truely enlightened ones (I believe there are many different enlightenment levels) wouldnt be watching helplessly as they would see beyond the people chasing thier own tails.
Who knows but they may even possibly look on with amusement. I find it very funny when Im in the worstest situations possible… it is at that time I find life the most funniest. (I think it is cause of the knowing that ive allowed myself to go down in the illusion… and that is very funny). So maybe enlightened ones could possible look on at others who are in torment as being funny (as after all they would also be viewing them as part of themselves… not separated from the other) (I aint saying that they wouldnt feel compassion too… for that part which was experiencing illusion, but one can feel both). One part of myself thinks humanity is funny.
“Also you don’t need to be enlightened to gain siddhis”
Yeah… I know several with some siddhis and thou they are some enlightened, they still have a way to go before they get to what Id call enlightenment. One could be a very bad person and have siddhis (thou ive yet to meet anyone like that, but i believe that’s possible). Not one of these people ive met thou outwardly display their siddhis to people and never for no reason as they aint something they care at all to go florting (lol is that the right word?) about. ive only seen them as a student (demostrated for reasons or while i was being taught for a reason or to help me or another in some way).
I like the idea of using EEG/MRI to pin down the brain waves of an enlightened person. But also I think we need some sort of ‘language’ that cross-references all the traditions so that we can understand that, for example, when St. Teresa’s speaks of “Orison of Quiet” this could correlate to Patanjali’s ‘Dyana with no distractions’ and Pali Buddhism’s "Samatha.’
I have combined some charts from John Curtis Gowan’s book “Trance, Art and Creativity” (available on line at http://www.csun.edu/edpsy/Gowan/)and added some extra information. Unfortunately it’s a .jpeg, which I don’t think can be uploaded here. Please acces it on my website at:
www.raysender.com/gowanchart.html
I also have a chart of the 8 Buddhist jhana absorptions that are a stairway to nirvana. This latter is on my website at:
www.raysender.com/jhanaschart.html
Advice and suggestions gratefully received!
Hari Om
Tania was kind enough to post a response to the following:
“Did ya ever wonder/ponder why are there not more Enlighted folks walk’n round?”
" I dont think they often tend to show themselves in a like big time kind of way, we have enough big examples of them so why do we need more big examples?. An Enlightened one can help others in the simplest of ways, whether it is just a simple smile at someone … or just a kind word. That could be enough to change anothers life. Some times the little deeds can be the greatest!"
One thing that is implied here, is with more Jivanmuki (~ enlightened) the society and environment improves without effort.
The laws of nature support these Beings no matter where they are or what they do. Society basks in thier light and benefits - the rains come on time, the proper seasons function - Hurricanes deposit their energy in the middle of the oceans;
The notion is simple - more enlightened beings produce a better society as they work/live and function in accord with the laws of nature that upholds life e.g. balance.
These trends indicate an upliftment in social consciousness - we look for them to indicate progress of pure consciousness being infused into all - as a beacon of hope for the future.
Regards,
Shanti
Frank in San Diego
aum
inspiring thoughts! wonderful insights from each of you- thank you!
frank, a special thanks to you as mentioned 'Did ya ever wonder/ponder why are there not more Enlighted folks walk’n round? ’
many years back, when i had thrown myself into the other india to seek my wholeness, i so badly wished to be in the company of ‘realized’ beings and by chance a ‘siddhar’, the ones journeying beyond enlightenment.
it was in thiruvannamalai that i asked this sage, who was with me on a pilgrimage, to show me a ‘siddhar’. he asked me how i would expect a siddhar to me. i thought for a while and could not find an answer but the wisdom behind the questioned opened my mind to possibilities.
later during the day, my companion, this sage, pointed out to a person looking like a madman- torn clothes, hair matted but not like the ones who meditate in caves for years. this friend of mine said, ‘this is a siddhar’. i fell on the ground to pay respects to this ‘siddhar’ who was about a 100 feet away from me and there were people walking between us. from that distance, this siddhar stopped, turned back, bends down his head to acknowledge me as though in telepathy he felt my surrender to him. after which, this siddhar walked away very quickly. later, i learnt that he was worshipped and respected by all who lived in thiruvannamalai and he never gets entangled in any human realities. this was the first of the many experiences of coming in the presence of a realized being.
it brings to fore what sri ramana maharishi said of those who are jiva muktas. very few can understand the ways of the enlightened as some may seem mad, eccentric or may be popular like amma or simply non-assuming. sri ramana quotes a tamil proverb which is , ‘pampariyum pampinakaal’ which means, ‘it takes an enlightened being to recognize another. the rest of us can only guess who is and who is not’.
with so much of powerful energies now coming out of the ancient perfecting wisdom, (i.e, 10 years back easy access to all of this wisdom was not possible- on yogani’s teachings or the gayatri mantra, or simple hatha yoga that as a fashion statement opens our experience to want to open more beautiful deeper doors), i agree with frank’s seed of thought- the 1% critical mass is being acheived sooner!
when the eternal fire burns to be the seeker’s need to want the sacred union as to be whole, the journey is complete within the life time as the momentum is set in ascendance. it could even be a larger percentage as blossoming awareness with each as the perfected seek to be perfect. guess this is what our daily ‘yoga’ is about!
enjoy our wholeness! all else overflows!
with folded hands!aum
aum
isnt it funny how the ‘i’ wags the tongue of the mind to write the ‘experience’ and yet every breath is still the journey? is being a jivamukti the knowing of that thought from which thoughts flow to then be experience and yet going beyond it to enjoy the supreme silence? is this supreme silence so divisible that on the external we can judge how much of it each one carries? can the sacred void be measured in each to judge or is the judge the one who wags the mind’s tongue?
the guru is in you, as our divine friend yogani says, is the supreme surrendered silence that makes divine transformation an instant in recognition. the instant of the source’s light that we hold in our sacred void to be mukti and the bliss of mukti to love this high that is a perch upstairs to be the witness of the human realm.
lets enjoy our realms as it blossoms! each a beauty! each in the sacred breath!
aum:)
with folded hands!aum
Here’s a way: “Whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child shall not enter it.” Serious countenanced holy men with grim faces, those with a studiedly loving aura who wield their bright wise eyes like torches, anyone projecting a polished image of any sort, or who show any self consciousness whatsoever (even a trace)…all these people are still living in the realm of mind and ego. Those who remove mind and ego are utterly (but playfully) immersed in every action, and don’t give a damn about appearances. Like a small child.
If you meet a holy man who you couldn’t imagine coming right up to and playing slap hands with, s/he is still anchored in mind/samsara/ego. Sounds silly, but I think that can actually be used as a litmus test.
You mentioned Amma, and there’s a lot to dislike about her organizationm and I’m not saying she’s necessarily the saint they say she is (nor am I saying she’s not). But the one time I saw her (I skipped the hug, fwiw), she was absolutely like a small child, and I’m completely convinced it wasn’t for show. So there’s something there.
Of course, child-like and childish are completely different things!
I think this is right. To be self-conscious is to have a territory to defend. If I have a territory, I feel that there is something that is mine and not yours. If I feel that there is something that is mine and not yours, I am not beyond duality, and do not feel that there is only ONE.
I tend now tend to cast territoriality, in all its gross and subtle forms, as the hallmark of non-enlightenment. The word ‘ego’ is not always that clearly understood; to my mind, it is the territoriality that makes the ego the non-enlightenedness that it is.
-D
David, it’s about image. You lose attachment to self, so you certainly lose any notion of “self-image” (sound in stark contrast to many “spiritual teachers” you know?).
That’s why there’s a long tradition of matted hair “crazy” people (apart from the sannyasin, whose ascetic muss is a regimented emblem of tribe) like the guy Nandhi encountered. Such folks can be well respected in India (and there are surely many who are unknown and disrespected outside India!). You just stop coloring inside the lines, and you lose concern for your “place” in things because there’s no longer a “you”. (to digress: it’s funny, this is repeated over and over in nearly every tradition: spiritual work means less and less “you,” yet 99% of seekers ignore this, and expect to turn into superbeings with great powers and attainments who will be loved by all.)
Sounds like insanity, and I used to brood over whether there’s actually a difference. But then I met (and dated!) some crazy people, and started reading up, and I found the diff. Psychosis never feels good. There’s no bliss. And it’s not relaxing.