emc,
in zen, it’s a long staircase rather than just one step up. What’s most deeply rooted in the shadow will take most steps to let loose. When you skip your sadhana, you skid a step or three back, no matter how high up the stairs you are. Also, it makes no sense to count the steps or estimate how long you’ve come because:
the path is the destination. A key idea from tantra, picked up by zen later, is detaching from the need of completing/achieving objectives and milestones in life.
comparisons would create just another “excellent” opportunity for the ego to recapture control.
It’s a pretty funny fact of life that quite a few new-age people continue with self-destructive habits (such as smoking, caffeine - or worse) after a Kundalini experience, but still refuse to see that these come from their allegedly dead ego… I don’t know if any pain is like that but the pain of quitting bad habits is definitely the pain side of universal love, the best choice possible - despite the friction an resistance of the ego.
You might take a look at the psychosythesis school (Assagioli, Ferucci - they were disciples of CGJ); rather than just a single “shadow”, they take a composite view where several subpersonalities within you interact while none of them is plain black or plain white. They also recommend a daily introspective, like a “sadhana”.
I think the CGJ community should point out clearly that the shadow has layers, particularly when you go for daily meditation as your primary tool: you proceed slowly through the layers, rather than hoping for a weekend of silver-bullet hip therapies “quick-fixing” it for you. I agree with the zen posts above, there’s definitely no single on-off switch (marked Fix All, in bold
Perhaps our ideas of perfection are just that; ideas. There is no such thing in the world of forms that can be labelled as perfect. It doesn’t exist. Who would want that? No-thing could “be” in an idealized manifestation because so-called perfection would negate everything. It is why the ideas of a perfect after-life, or heaven are “over there”. They are unreal in our experience of life.
A year and a half or so into ayp, some things about my personal journey are obvious. The inner silence and the increasing amount of witnessing allows passive observation of conduct/behavior/habits/personality traits, etc… At the start of the journey, the realization and the conduct were one and the same but as months have gone by this has definitely changed.
The initial change was the realization that whatever I just did or even had done in the distant past (judging, condemning, anger,a whole boatload of wrongdoings etc…) was not consistent with a spiritual life. Subsequently, I (conventional non-enlightened, non-advaitic, small self, etc…) would sort of have emotional pain at repeating the said actions or even recollection of such memories. This seemed to lead to a conscious decision that feels deeper than an intellectual or societally provoked one to watch out for such actions in the future and stop/ just be silent/observe passively, instead of acting them out. Inner silence and accompanying space at play.
This slowly has lead to a definite reduction in negative or harmful behavior with the feeling that the said behaviors were there to help me learn and move on. An increase in energy/bliss, which doesn’t feel coincedental, in direct proportion to leaving the less serving behaviors behind potently reinforces the process.
I believe this kind of evolution is part and parcel of a systematic approach such as Ayp. The aspirant, atleast I have been, will be forced to observe their behaviors (current and past) etc… and most likely will rise to a higher level of conduct and wisdom through the process. This process should theoretically continue till perfection is reached, in another words more than a lifetime for almost anyone not of avatar status.
The issue seems to be that a continued experience of enlightenment or self realization is tied more closely to a change in perception or identity BUT DOES NOT require the wholesale cleansing of maladaptive behavior patterns/karma etc… Upon closer reflection, this makes sense because the aforementioned patterns/karma seem to reside in the sub/unconscious until particular situations are caused by them or until they flood the conscious mind due to circumstances.
These unwholesome behaviors/thoughts would make it very unlikely for even an advanced practitioner to confuse themselves as being enlightened unless a profound change in identity/perception has taken place. A profound change (with the model being that the ripening takes place over time but the fruit falls at a particular time or from a more neural perspective, circuitry is being rewired over time but the full current flow is perceived at a eureka type moment) with its accompanying energetics can easily confuse the practitioner because now they are without a shadow of a doubt no longer the same. Cue the proclamations of being completely awake!
The only problem is that even though God’s own light is now flowing through them and they are more closely aligned with the source in identity than the rest of us, they are still communicating/teaching/living through the use of the body and brain which is still undergoing purification.
This leads me to believe that the neural circuitry needed for the change in perception/identity (commonly what most of us refer to as being self realized or enlightened) is independent (but ofcourse related, as in its all in the brain!) and will preceed the eventual cleansing/rewiring of the rest of the circuitry. I would hazard to guess that the change in identity can unleash forces (for a lack of a better word) that can greatly speed up the purification of the rest of the body/brain.
The caveat seems to be that the practitioner, who now identifies with a new being of a glorious and unfathomable nature, must still observe and pay attention, learn, read, gain skills, etc… Why? Not because he will improve in identity but because this is the only way to learn more about him/her self and continue the purification, all the while being a sun to the rest of humanity.
The problem is that many seem to have confused the change in identity as an all encompassing frution of the process and thus actually halting completion of it. This leads to masters that can be grumpy, angry, abusive, dismissive of paths other than theirs, etc… We will have no shortage of students that will be overwhelmed by the aura/charisma/prescence of the masters pervasive identity and rush to rationalize their behaviors as necessary for the growth of the student. Surely, we will learn from such actions but I shudder at giving credit to the master in question who berates his student but rather see this as lessons from the one behind the curtain. The question is will the master learn or is he/she too enlightened?
So in the final analysis, enlightenment needs to be defined with the idea in mind of a change in identity as being different and preceeding wholesale purification of the rest of the body/brain. Yogani has thus consistently advocated a dynamic enlightenment in which purification continues and our wisdom is proportional to our understanding of our limitations. This also ties in neatly with the discussion about the necessity of practices after the change in identity (enlightenment). Continued meditation will most likely not have much of an effect on identity (as the current in the wiring is already optimum and a solid durable connection has been made) but the practices will help the master continue to learn, make mistakes, learn, communicate better just like they do for the students with conventional identity, and lead the rest of us to the promised land, etc…
So what changes after enlightenment? Of course, a change in identity with its accompanying fruits (much less or no suffering) has already taken place before so really the rest is up to the practitioner. If they continue to practice, they will continue to learn and improve with regards to whatever they do on a day to day basis at a fast pace. If they don’t practice, the purification will still continue but at a slower pace (ofcourse much faster than the unenlightened by the virtue of the identity change cirucit being complete).
Eitherway said:
“The problem is that many seem to have confused the change in identity as an all encompassing frution of the process and thus actually halting completion of it. This leads to masters that can be grumpy, angry, abusive, dismissive of paths other than theirs, etc… We will have no shortage of students that will be overwhelmed by the aura/charisma/prescence of the masters pervasive identity and rush to rationalize their behaviors as necessary for the growth of the student. Surely, we will learn from such actions but I shudder at giving credit to the master in question who berates his student but rather see this as lessons from the one behind the curtain. The question is will the master learn or is he/she too enlightened?”
Perhaps you are correct in your assumptions, but maybe the particular expressions by truly “God-absorbed masters” is just the way their vehicles operate. Maybe there are some characteristics that just don’t change in the “karma-created vehicle.” Perhaps the more peaceful, vegetarian, kind and gentle, etc. “God-absorbed masters” are expressing through vehicles that were that way before enlightenment. And maybe the treatment dished out to a particular student in a particular moment is a correct energetic response on some level for the recipient.
By your questioning “Are they too enlightened?” I take it that you are saying such masters did not purify the vehicle enough before dissolving into the infinite?
I have looked at a handful of masters lives somewhat, the ones who became realized (as opposed to the ones who were born realized, like Bhagavan Nityananda and etc.) and see that they appear to carry over certain personality characteristics. The vehicle is an energetic conglomeration of karmic events that seems to have an expression, a life of its own to live out, even if the Divine Self is shining through in full force.
Hi Alan,
I agree that it seems that certain characteristics don’t seem to change in the “karma-created vehicle” but my question is can the God absorbed master change those characteristics? Are they adaptable? I have typically heard that there is no free will and that it is God’s Will but this seems like rationalization for the inability to change or rather simply a lack of knowledge about whatever attribute or action might be under discussion.
I’m leaning towards a two fold neural mechanism (i can hear the advaitists cringe but don’t worry we’re all one) in order to explain the identity change (classical enlightenment) and further purification necessary to get to all the shadows (dynamic enlightenment) as well as improve in myriad ways, e.g, politely explaining the nuances of the spiritual journey,instead of wacking upside the head with a stick .
I’m not suggesting that all enlightened masters should or will act the same way. I believe personality traits will remain, after all they keep the spice in existence.
“And maybe the treatment dished out to a particular student in a particular moment is a correct energetic response on some level for the recipient” Sure, but I think this might be giving a little too much slack to the master. What I’m saying is that there might be a better response for the student at this time (even deliverable by the same master) but the master won’t learn or concede this because he is overwhelmed by the identity change/God Absorption. I’m suggesting the God Absorption is related to a particular neural circuit which because of its overwhelming nature can make the master unlikely to continue in making progress by learning new skills or continuing purification through practices. Just thoughts of course.
Hi Eitherway.
You could be right, maybe they can change their behaviors.
I’m with Joan Tollifson though. I like the quirks of the different personalitiy expressions as it is. Keeps things fun for me. It honors things as it is; already perfect in the transitoriness of it all. I think if the absolute enjoys anything it is infinite diversity and uniqueness!
Wow, this is a great discussion. Now I want to add my opinion too!
First of all, I am also of the opinion that enlightenment is a journey and people can be at different degrees of enlightenment, but if they were ever fully realized, I think they would cease to exist on this level of experience that we are on.
Having met some individuals that I think many would agree have reached some level of enlightenment I believe they have cleared much of their stuff, meaning their issues or neurosis that caused the annoying behavior. However, I have seen actions, comments or behavior that tells me they still have blind spots and have not yet cleared everything.
So there is my two cents…
yeah, I rather like the stories of Zen masters beating their students with a stick. Gets me laughing haha. Or burning Buddha’s statues to keep warm… anything like that haha, human nature is so awesome.
I know I was a little harsh with Eric earlier, it’s all meant in love though. It’s easy to get caught up in stuff, even if it’s nothing. I didn’t say it just for him, I said it for me too… maybe he’ll get nothing out of it (haha), maybe it doesn’t matter, maybe it didn’t need to be said, maybe nothing needs to be said, maybe I just don’t care more about one side or the other, I dunno haha. I could go on for days like this haha, I think it’s awesome, human nature is freaking beautiful… just as it is.
oh and, I’m more enlightened, because I don’t care about enlightenment. yeah, I went there. I don’t really mean that though. or do I? haha, see, there it is again hahaha :).
Of course a master could change if there was reason to. In my opinion God’s will isn’t something that is bland and makes everyone the same. To the contrary, each of us is unique, and this uniqueness fits perfectly in God’s plan. When a person becomes realized, they don’t get rid of their uniqueness. They just get rid of superfluous ego stuff that they mistakenly thought was part of them.
I firmly believe that a fully realized person will still make choices using their free will. I think God is like the navigation system in your car. If you deviate from the path that is given to you, the navigator says “You are not on the designated path. I am recalculating your new route.”
Lila, I don’t think we would cease to exist on this level of experience. God’s plan is for all souls, and a fully realized person is the best tool God has for helping other people.
Yogani has thus consistently advocated a dynamic enlightenment in which purification continues and our wisdom is proportional to our understanding of our limitations.
Agreed with this. I’d take it even further – there is no ‘fully enlightened’ – no more than there is ‘fully educated’, or ‘fully intelligent’ or ‘fully skilled’.
When this is understood, there’s nothing particularly to be resolved in our view of Nisagardatta’s bad habits and negative inclinations, any more than there is about any of ours. If we mythologize him, and/or believe in complete enlightenment, we have some explaining to do. And sometimes these explanations are tortuous, merely rationalizations ultimately. I think some of that is going on in this thread because, in one way or another, people just won’t let ‘perfectly enlightened’ go.
He yelled and he got angry and he smoked (which he knew was bad for him) because he had some imperfections. Stop imagining ‘perfectly enlightened’ and there’s nothing to explain. Behold Nisagardatta!
If anything, I like the guy more for letting some of his imperfections hang out! Sounds like he could be fun to be with! He’d be a better man to share a pint of Guinness with than some other enlightenment icons!
Hi David,
I agree with your perspective as I think perfection might occur so rarely (avatar status) that it is statistically insignificant and the majority of the talk about it is ego driven.
I do, however, believe there is much value in recognizing the apparent limitations of the change in identification and God Absorption, if you will. The value is not in putting down past masters but rather a sort of understanding that will pervade the spiritual community about there being no perfectly enlightened master and thus also no path that can’t be improved, etc… This should over time lead to greater collaboration between gurus/masters/aspirants of different traditions and thus help create even more powerful and even easier paths to tread than AYP. (e.g, AYP +Kunlun +some pharm or herb???)
Of course, this is what Yogani has seemingly been up to with creating AYP and I think largely this is due to his taking the best from different traditions and learning from past masters without getting too hung up on perfection in path or teacher.
Hi Eitherway,
Just wanted to say that the perspective you offered, particularly in your first post, is the way I am seeing it these days as well. I really enjoyed the read, thanks .
Hi Alan,
Your quotes from Joan Tollifson could not have been more timely for me to read, thank you for sharing them!
I agree. In fact, I don’t see anything imperfect about yelling, getting angry, and smoking! I just don’t like those things. I don’t like a lot of things human beings do.
Eitherway said:
I do, however, believe there is much value in recognizing the apparent limitations of the change in identification and God Absorption, if you will. The value is not in putting down past masters but rather a sort of understanding that will pervade the spiritual community about there being no perfectly enlightened master and thus also no path that can’t be improved, etc… This should over time lead to greater collaboration between gurus/masters/aspirants of different traditions and thus help create even more powerful and even easier paths to tread than AYP. (e.g, AYP +Kunlun +some pharm or herb???)
Say it man!! With you all the way here!
David said:
“If anything, I like the guy more for letting some of his imperfections hang out! Sounds like he could be fun to be with! He’d be a better man to share a pint of Guinness with than some other enlightenment icons!”
You want to have a beer with this guy?! http://www.realization.org/page/topics/nisargadatta.htm
I’m afraid he would have drank you under the table before the glasses were set out. Ha ha ha ha ha!
Hi A. I’m glad you enjoyed that Joan is great in her nice and smiling way. And very straightforward too. She doesn’t beat around the bush with her direct pointing to the Self.
Below is a link to a little essay where Tollifson talks about gurus. I call Amma Karunamayi my Guru at present, but I won’t keep her limited to one form, she is in all the great ones I adore, including you and me . http://www.lotusandrose.com/dewdrops/teacher.htm
About “nothing changes”… I noticed that proclamation fueled my bhakti even more. I wanna get out of here, and if nothing is gonna change it means I can’t get out of here… That scares the hell out of me. So something better change, or I will end up belted in a mental hospital for the rest of my life cause then I log out permanently. Maya is hell. At least the perception of it will change, as Ether said, and that’s my bhakti drive, to - in whatever way - change the position towards maya/hell. And according to Yogani (and own glimpses of experience) - in a magical way life will not become so hellish anylonger either as we proceed. It just won’t rain on you when it rains on others, and if it does, you will laugh about it. If I’d still be in hell after enlightenment (or whatever sort of profound realization)… well… then nothing changed! And I would say: [:O]!
So if we carried water and was grumpy about it and suffered from the heavy burden before enlightenment, I sincerely hope we will carry water after - perhaps be grumpy about it because our personalities won’t change that much - but we won’t suffer, because there will be no burden!
Another thing I was discussing with a friend yesterday. What if Nisargadatta was the example of what happens after enlightenment… Would an angry, grumpy, capricious, smoking man work as a good commercial for going the spiritual path??? Of course not. It wouldn’t encourage many. Instead we would like to see someone like Amma or Gandhi as an example of an enlightened person, kind and loving in all situations. So that could be a reason why so much effort is put on altering the flaws of the ego FIRST, so you become a bit nicer person. Because that person will still be there after enlightenment and we’d prefer well developed, psychologically harmonious and mature egos to deal with when enlightened. It would encourage others more to walk the spiritual path.
The Samuraj’s were also enlightened, weren’t they? And killed people. Not a very good promotion for “love and truth”. Still, they were as pure as can be! Stillness in action. Stillness kills if it wants to. But we don’t want to know that since our perception of love is something else, based on emotions. Real love is sharp. Not emotional.
“Real love is sharp. Not emotional.”
I beg to differ. Real love just makes no distinction. That’s it that’s all.
And it includes making distinctions… there lies the paradox. There’s why you can’t explain it, it just is.
I think we’ve all gone this way and that towards our “enlightenment”. Changing this, changing that, growing here and there. You could say consciousness grows as if consciousness has something to grow into. You could say that. Karmah… cause and effect, It leads to growth, to change, maturity, a well developed being.
And the paradox is always just sitting there between everything and nothing. We go to one side, to the other… trying to ease into that balanced way of being, into our “enlightenment”, and still… the paradox is sitting there between everything and nothing. It’s life, it’s death, the in breath, the out breath. You could say in its imperfection it’s perfect. Some would say it’s just perfect, but they’re still looking, they’ve convinced themselves of perfection and strive for it. I’m convinced of imperfection, and I don’t mind looking at it. It’s there… and I don’t mind. Why would I think otherwise… because some guru told me it’s perfect? It’s “divine”? Because I need to act in accordance of what’s “divine”. As that divine in me grows… I’ll change along with it, but not because anything ever changed. The paradox is still there… I’ll just express it differently, that is all.
I don’t know if any pain is like that but the pain of quitting bad habits is definitely the pain side of universal love, the best choice possible - despite the friction an resistance of the ego.
He’d be a better man to share a pint of Guinness with than some other enlightenment icons!
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