For me it is God’s will / Karma that brings up such situations.
And those situations are here for me to learn something.
I don’t believe its God’s will for me to suffer and accept
beeing trampled on me. I do have a choice of how to act.
Karma does not mean blindly accepting everything without
action. And if I do conciously decide to accept the suffering,
then that was my choice. Is it a good choice to accept it ?
Is it a bad choice to stand up to the injustice ?
It is my free choice and God does not judge if it is
good or bad. I only carry the consequences, and the
consequences may be desirable or unpleasant.
In my case I need to learn that I have a right to stand up,
but also I need to learn not to get so upset and emotional
about an injust case. If it is God’s will that I have to
face injustice, then I may need to accept. In my case
it would mean to wait if the other side really goes to
court, then wait for the decision of the court and if
the court decides against me, I would then have to accept it.
with love and light
Wolfgang
Hi Chiron… we create our own heaven and our own hell. For live times together we have accumulated impressions… of what is good and what is bad. We believe that something bad has happened to us because we did something bad in this or our previous lifetime. I was a true believer of that. I lived through hell… every day telling God I was sorry for all the wrong I did and please make it easier… please make this pain go away… I cried and prayed… and wondered why God hated me so much… Then one day I realized… I was creating this hell for myself. God/Truth was always on my side… I had such a dirty windshield that I could not see through it… I was driving blind… that did not mean God/Truth was not there… God/Truth made sure the car stayed on the road… that I did not go flying off the cliff since I had no idea where I was going…
God was not punishing me… I was punishing myself… all God/Truth wanted to do was hold my hand and pull me out of the quick sand I was sinking into…
AYP showed me how to clean this windshield and I still have a lot of cleaning to go through… but now there is a slight clearing in the windshield… and though I don’t see everything clearly… I know I am on the right track… now I am ready to take God’s/Truth’s hand and get out… the hand is in form of AYP.
So… all the bad that happens… yes it happens for a reason… the reason is to some day get fed up and say… come on there has to be more… Not all of us are lucky to get this feeling of being completely lost… some may need to go through a few life times before they reach that point… but all of us here at AYP have agreed to accept this helping hand that has been send our way… and there is light at the end of the tunnel… God’s light… The Truth…
If you go through the thread that Frank has been posting on… “Being There”…you will realize that once we have reached a certain point… there is no good or bad…
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1138
-Shweta
[quote]Originally posted by Wolfgang
…He responded, that surley I do
have the right for cancellation, but that he has to proceed
in giving me a warning for not paying, so that he can reclaim
his costs from Ebay. …
… I am now threatened by them to pay for the goods (35€)
and on top of that an even higher amount for fees (40€).
If I should not pay, I am threatened with a court case…
Wolfgang,
I reread the thread and I think I now see the crux of your complaint. The seller admits your right to cancel; nevertheless, he is proceeding with a collection process, not because he expects you to go through with the purchase, but only to “reclaim his costs from ebay.” How unlucky for you! My condolences.
Earlier you asked: “Should I turn the other cheek or should I
stand up for justice ? How are Jesus’ words to be
understood ?”
Following the theme of trying to interpret what Jesus meant, it is also written that Jesus said:
“If you’re due in court to answer a complaint, settle out of court as soon as you can.”
http://www.templetons.com/charles/jesus/chapter9.html
I come from a Mennonite background where we take Jesus’ teaching very seriously. I would definitely give the seller what he wants in order to settle out of court as soon as possible. But I respect your freedom to refuse to pay. Let us know how it goes if there are further developments.
Bewell
Bewell,
I’m not a Christian, but one possible reading of the text is that Jesus is making a parable of ‘the court’, meaning ‘the karmic Law’. For possible context, look at the few lines before it:
Jesus said: [attributed]
But here is my teaching: I say that if a man is so much as angry at his brother he is in danger of God’s judgement. So, if you happen to be in the sanctuary, praying, and remember a grievance someone has against you, postpone your praying and go and get things settled peacefully. Then, back to your worship.
"If you’re due in court to answer a complaint, settle out of court as soon as you can. If you don’t you may find that the plaintiff has brought you before the judge, and the judge has sentenced you, and the jailer has put you behind bars. You may be sure that you won’t get out until you’ve paid your debt to the last penny.
Is he saying ‘Settle your karmic debts now (‘out of court’), because if you don’t, you could face a terrible judgement on Judgement Day’.
I certainly don’t believe that he means to yield to everyone who sues you… at least not here and now in the U.S.!!! That would seem absurd to me!
of course it doesn’t mean yield to whomever sues you. It means settle all rightful debts.
When you buy something on Ebay, it’s a binding contract, and you have to pay for it, or
risk losing your privilege to do business there. I got a seller kicked off ebay for gross misrepresentation of a product. I got a refund, and kept the product too! But you have to follow their rules to the letter. I made several attempts to settle on a personal level first, and he refused.
[b][purple]Jesus said: [attributed]
But here is my teaching: I say that if a man is so much as angry at his brother he is in danger of God’s judgement. So, if you happen to be in the sanctuary, praying, and remember a grievance someone has against you, postpone your praying and go and get things settled peacefully. Then, back to your worship.
David,
I like bringing that saying into the interpretation: A paraphrase might be “If you are doing your meditation, and thoughts of some wrong you have done intrudes on your practice, first remedy the wrong, then return to meditation.”
If doing restitution that keeps you out of court, all the better.
Bewell
@bewell: would you say the same thing the other way round:
“If you are doing your meditation, and thoughts of some wrong that has been done to you …” ?
Be well 
Wolfgang
Wolfgang wrote:
“If you are doing your meditation, and thoughts of some wrong that has been done to you …” ?
I know you weren’t talking to me, but here’s what I think:
Yes, for your own sake it is good to resolve such an issue. But it doesn’t involve the other person in this case, because if you go out and get revenge, it won’t make you feel any better if you’re a spiritual person. If it is an aquaintance, telling them how you feel makes you feel better. but business situations are different.
If you can forgive them, it will make you feel better. You don’t have to forget, just forgive. How is that done? By putting the situation in a different perspective. If you make the decision with conviction to forgive them, then if you are able to change your perception to much bigger and more important things you will feel better. I don’t know your situation, but in my life I might see someone a lot worse off than me like people starving and under political repression, or a woman going in for surgery who had aids and was brought in by prison guards, or a man who tried to hop a moving train and his arm was ripped off, or I have friends who have lost their spouses in accidents, etc etc. just find other people in bad situations and concentrate on having compassion, and your own situation will seem unimportant. But you have to want to forgive first.
I am with Ether on this… your have to forgive and move on. Holding on to a grudge just pulls you back…
Another thing Bewell… and I don’t think you meant it the way you wrote it…
"A paraphrase might be “If you are doing your meditation, and thoughts of some wrong you have done intrudes on your practice, first remedy the wrong, then return to meditation.”
however… it is a good opportunity to re-visit a lesson on restlessness during meditation…
If a feeling of wrong does intrude you during meditation… you gently push that thought away and go back to the mantra… continue with your meditation… If you do this… meditation will take care of the feeling you have… it will dissolve it like any other obstructions in the nervous system… and you will find it easier to go back to the situation during your regular day and fix it…
If the feeling is too strong…
You can check this lesson http://www.aypsite.org/15.html
but really … all of the meditation lessons will tell you the same thing… like a broken record 
[quote]Originally posted by Wolfgang
@bewell: would you say the same thing the other way round:
“If you are doing your meditation, and thoughts of some wrong that has been done to you …” ?
Wolfgang,
On wrongs done to us, from a Jesus angle, recall the Lord’s prayer, “Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us.” In other words, forgiving others is a way to make ourselves receptive God’s forgivness.
I’m cruious, do you feel empathy for the seller? You see that your exercise of your right to cancel the contract cost him money and time. Have you tried to feel for him how he might feel about that loss. Sometimes, in “forgivness,” it helps to see it from the other’s point of view.
Thank you bewell,
your comment is helpful.
Do I feel empathy ? Not in the sense, that I am cuddling him,
saying to him “It’s ok, you are doing good, I love You”
The sellers loss must be very small, I guess it is some 50 cents.
Probably less: the sale was an multi-article-auction (meaning
the seller had in this case a total of 79 identical articles
for sale).
Am I able to forgive ? Of course, but if he keeps beating me
I have to defend myself.
I guess it is some 50 cents.
Wolfgang,
That is cheap! Here is a sample of an apology letter I might send to the seller.
Dear Sir,
I truly regret the trouble and expanse the cancellation of my order caused for you. Is there something I could do to settle this problem to your satisfaction, without buying the product, which I no longer need? I recall, in our earlier conversation, your mentioned needing to cover you eBay costs. I was thinking, maybe, if you would let me know what your eBay costs are, I’d be more than willing to cover that amount for you.
If he says it is costing him 50 cents, send him double that.
[quote]Originally posted by bewell
“I truly regret the trouble and expanse the cancellation of my order caused for you.”
I wrote that this morning, and as I reflected on it during the day, it struck me as fake. For such a note to work it would have to be true.
And as for my Christianity, a lot of it is veneer. It is about the small things, little gestures. It is interesting to me how quickly I came up with saying from Jesus. But have I ever really “turned the other cheek?” I think not. I just try to get along with people and an oppressor has never smacked me in the face. If what happened to you had happened to me, I would not consider that a smack in the face or an injustice. I would look at it as a misunderstanding between equals, and unfortunate one for both of us.
The real injustice is between rich and poor, the haves and the have-nots. Since I count myself among the haves, I figure, when the just ideal revolution comes, when injustice is banished, I’ll have to give up a lot of privilages. So, if push comes to shove, I hope I will hold my money lightly. But will I?
I just sold a house for what I thought was break-even because I wanted to buyer to have the best deal possible, but due to some miscalculation, I realized later, I lost a thousand dollars. Oops. The buyer is happy, and is a new neighbor, so I’m pleased. I won’t mention to anyone, but my wife, that I sold it at cost. My wife doesn’t mind either.
I guess this reminds me of how the money discussion group ended. The one with the cofacilitator of the meditation group. I more or less “put my cards on the table,” I expressed where I’m at with money, and it was clear that we were playing a different game.
Speaking of her, she just dropped by. She’s doing well lately, glad to have “encouraging friends.” Oh well, I’m rambling. Enough said, I guess.
Wolfgang,
I don’t understand ebay, or the issue. But one thing is clear in yoga from the beginning. One yama in the first step of Ashtang Yoga is ‘Ahimsa’ or non-violence. And it very clearly does not mean turning the other cheek. It means that you are not violent with attachment. If anyone must be corrected for his own good, it must be done whatever it involves. Just as you’d administer a few whacks to a child to prevent him or her from going the wrong way, but only in order to correct a behaviour… not assuage your ego. The only, and the most difficult thing to ensure here, is that you’re not putting salve on your bruised ego by taking any measure that to others may seem like retaliation.
There is the story of two Samurais fighting on the orders of their emperor. The better one soon managed to bring the weaker one down. Just as he was about to kill him, the weaker one leaned forward and spat in his face. The stronger one at once dropped his sword and left the arena, without concluding his victory as was the practice. Why? Because his anger was aroused, and he knew that he’d be finshing him off in anger (attachment), rather than because of his dharma. (detachment)
To be attached or detached is the only choice we’re supposed to have once in the human form. Does this answer from the point of view of yoga? And would it be possible to apply it in future cases where one is in a similar situation? (Teach a lesson if you’re cool, back off if you’re het up, because in the latter situation, you would be creating negative karma for yourself, and divine retribution is far more powerful and effective than anything you can think of, if you are looking for justice.
The self/silence is never offended. Only ego/mind can be offended. Instances where an offense (or disruption or injury) seem not to occur in ego mind are gifts from god - the perfect points of self inquiry.
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1137
“I guess it is some 50 cents.”
That may be way off. If the seller would have made $20 from the sale, and your bid kept somebody else from buying the item, then his loss would be $20.50 or the equivalent euros.
If he makes $100. an hour on ebay, and it takes him a couple hours to straighten this out. . . you get the idea. Different people are worth different amounts of money per hour, so it’s not the loss you may perceive as a buyer. That’s why it’s important to just follow ebay rules, and not try to think “logically” or “right and wrong” because you can lose much more in the long run.
For instance, you could take it to court, and win your money back. but your cost would be loss of Ebay privileges, and several thousand euros for lawyer fees. So if it’s worth that to feel that you’re right, then you can prove it. Personally, I will go to great lengths to NOT go to court and waste hundreds of hours in boredom.
@Etherfish: I am sorry to say, you really got it screwed up.
The facts are: this sale was a multi-arcticle sale and the seller
had 79 of the same articles for sale. The auction is closed now
and it can be seen that 59 articles are still available.
So he sold 20 pieces, which means somebody else could still have
made a bid. My bid had no influence and did not hinder anybody
buying this stuff.
My cancellation of the sale actually saved him the trouble of
sending the goods. According to his own business rules (and
according to german law), the buyer has the right to cancel
the contract which I did.
For reasons unknown to me the seller kept pressing charges
that I should pay for the goods. He complained to Ebay which
resulted in a warning from Ebay to me.
I informed Ebay that I rightfully cancelled the contract
and asked Ebay to withdraw the issued warning, which they
meanwhile actually did (they wrote to me that the warning
is withdrawn).
Concerning the money collecting company: I proved to them,
that I rightfully cancelled the contract and since then
I have not heard from them anymore.
I myself will definitely not start a court case. If anybody
wants to start a court case, it will be them. If they start
it, I will respond. But then, turning the other cheek will
not mean to me, to appear in front of the court like a dumb
peaceful lamb, ready for being slaughtered and accepting
anything they say.
Anyway, I don’t know why you are rambling along a case
which so far for me is settled long ago.
Sorry Wolfgang, I did misunderstand. I thought you were trying to hold to what’s right against Ebay policies.
I missed the part where the seller’s own policy said you could cancel also.
I’m glad everything worked out for the best!