By the way, Louis:
I love your 2 cents
May all your Nows be Here
[quote=“Sparkle”]
This thing about loosing our consciousness to enlightenment does not make sense to me, experientially or intellectually.
[/quote]Hi Louis,
It wouldn’t make sense to me either. If we would lose our consciousness in enlightenment there wouldn’t be any point to it.
[quote]
It would seem more like this individual is more fully conscious and more fully aware because of the enlightenment.
[/quote]I agree fully with this.
Yogani writes in Lesson 274 http://www.aypsite.org/274.html
“As for what is next once inner silence and ecstatic conductivity are coming up, it is a long drawn-out joining of these two, played out as much in our daily activity as in our practices. This gives rise to the “child” of the union, as it were, called “jivan mukti,” or “christ consciousness.” This is the end game of yoga…”
Frank said:
When was the last time you bought a car , site unseen? Didn’t look at it , kick the tires, noth’n. " I’ll take it" you said.
We have never test drove emancipation, never interviewed IT to see if wish to join the team???
True, but here’s the great thing — it’s true for life itself, isn’t it? This thing that we are, whatever it is, (and I don’t think it is eternal individual souls) said, YES to this our LIFE without a test-drive. With a test-drive, would it be such a wonderful mystery?
So here we are again, going into the mystery again, without a test-drive, but into enlightenment, which is really just entering life more fully…
It’s always and forever the same old game. Unborn, eternal, primeval and unchangeable, the sports-car salesman with the great spin (God), and the sucker born every day (us) are one and the same at the end of the day. Both think they are getting a great deal, and the truth is, they both are.
A test-drive would spoil it all, wouldn’t it? 
I think the whole debate of the witness having consciousness or not or losing it or not to enlightenment is more an issue of words meaning different things to different people than anything else.
Katrine I hope you don’t mind me trying to understand your words a little more! 
When Katrine wrote “the witness does not have consciousness” the witness is the witnessing. Does it make more sense if she had said instead “the witness does not have self-consciousness”? In other words the witness just is, it doesn’t think or label itself as something or someone or label what it is witnesses as something. It just is, it knows the reality of what it is witnessing first hand instead of through definitions or labels nor through the filter of the self in relation to what it perceives.
The way I see it is that we lose our self-consciousness to enlightenment but not our awareness which is always here, there and present. In other words all the stuff I use to use to define myself: “I am a doctor, great cook, nice human-being, generous person, advanced yogi etc., etc.” are all just labels and things that we are “acting out” to define our egos. As we witness and become aware of our true nature, these labels drop away and we realize that beneath it all we just are that pure awareness and that everything around us is that to.
Hi Anthem
You wrote:
I don’t mind it - I love it!
Exactly.
Pure awareness is This.
All there is is This.
Pure awareness is the witness. It is not our physical eyes (our personality/ego) that witness; it is Silence.
I therefore cannot say that pure awareness has pure awareness. (“The witness has consciousness”). That’s like stating that the ocean has water. That is making two of one. The ocean doesn’t have water. The ocean is water.
Sparkle wrote:
Anthem wrote:
Yes…to all of the above!
And when I, because of direct ecperience (being it), know the full reality of what I am witnessing , then the seer, the seen and the seeing is One.
This is our gift to nature:
Through our constant surrendering; through the channels we are; the ocean comes to know itself as this Oneness (the witness, consciousness)
Hence all the Joy!
May all your Nows be Here
Hi Frank, David,weaver, Anthem and Katrine and all
I see there are two discussions going on here and we are not discussing Franks question. Hope you don’t mind Frank.
We seem to have come to a common understanding about becoming more fully conscious as we evolve, which is great. For some reason a lot of people do not see it this way, and I’m not saying they are wrong.
weaver, I read yogani’s lesson 274 as you suggested, where he talks about becoming the child and this is Christ consciousness, and this is ending up in the heart with an outpouring of divine love - the one heart - a great read and it is where this “drive” is taking us.
When it is said “we should become as little children”, like many or most of these sayings the literal interpretation does not apply. The little child has no labels, no self-consciousness(ego). The average little child however does not have full awareness and full consciousness.
We develop this awareness and consciousness as we go through the dividing process and back again to unity. It is through the divide that we learn and become conscious. So our ego and our separation are in fact the tools of our enlightenment. Without this we would still be like little children but we would not be on the road to conscious enlightenment, we would be like the tree - beautifully still but unaware (as far as we know).
So we become like little children, with our labels gone and also with awareness of our Christ consciousness or jivan mukti.
Anthem said:
As we witness and become aware of our true nature, these labels drop away and we realize that beneath it all we just are that pure awareness and that everything around us is that to.
This is beautiful Anthem, and then I wonder if it is fully true, and maybe its another word thing. Does realising we are all one with everything mean that everything is aware of this, as in everything is awareness?. Perhaps it is this awareness, as Katrine says, that we bring to nature.
Frank said:
Perhpaps we will enjoy His Grace; we do today and we are not aware of it (mostly); Its esssence is behind each action we perform. As we fade from ignorance this realization is the gift, that bliss is the current (or rasa) of existence. This is the delight of the ‘test drive’ we have forgotten all about and is part of us and Him.
Frank, I love your words and I love the word Grace. For me it is like a continuous stream of silent love intelligence passing through us and everything, calling us back home. Even if we don’t see or feel it, it is there pulling us out of our ignorance.
or as David said: the sports-car salesman with the great spin (God), and the sucker born every day (us), are one and the same at the end of the day
As I pull up here on my “beat up car” the tank invariably gets full to overflowing with this Grace fuel - ride on and thank you all.
2 cents
Louis
Hari Om
Hello all,
I find your conversation’s very inspiring. Yes, when we think of this witness experience, its definitely not the absence of consciousness…I think we are all vehemently agreeing. Its full of consciousness, yet unblemished, simple and pure.
Is fact ( here’s the esoteric part) there is no-thing that is not this consciousness. All this is THAT…and THAT is consciousness.
This is called Vaishvanara, some call Universal Self. It is Bhuma, or Fullness or Brahman. We’re delighted when someone starts to ‘witness’, why is that? It begins the progress of differentiating the SELF from non-SELF. This is key for ones development to know that this SELF is not the empirical everyday self we experience. This allows us to underand/see/experince how one can have silence in the mist of activity. Rest in the mist of alertness… the fundamental experience of 'restful alertness’s as one establishes this 4th state of consciousness on an everyday basis.
Enlightenment is very practical, so the ‘runway’ to enlightenment takes us to this Witness experience.
I am delighted to see we’re talking of this … its part of the ‘ride’ , scenery and a glimpse of the destination all at the same time.
agnir satyam rtam brhat Frank in San-Diego
Hi Katrine, Anthem and everone reflecting on “witness,”
I too have been thinking about the meaning of “witness.” Last week, I did a search on the word in Yogani’s writings. He generally identifies witness with silence. “Silence,” a term he uses more often, is part of a dialectic: Silence and conductivity; Father and Holy Spirit; Shiva and Shakti. “Silence” is the gap between thoughts that also runs alongside thoughts.
The notion of “witness” came up in Yogani’s reviews of the methods of Tolle and Katie where he said that the witness is prerequisite to their work. To the extent that one has that prerequisite down, then detaching oneself from errors of thinking, going through pain without suffering, and living in the now become easier.
I’ve also been reflecting on the notions of witness and silence through the lens of my own prior experience and study. “Witness” is a word that fits for that state of mind I have during automatic yoga. I witness with only minimal control. My body moves as other. I witness in a state of ecstatic absorption, without/between thoughts.
The idea of witness also reminds me of when I was having an ascent of the soul experience. A part of me was watching, entirely non-anxious, while a sort of whirlwind and fire was entirely changing my body awareness. But a time came when there was no longer a witness in the ordinary sense, no longer a subject object division, a pure gap. That gap, I see as the forth state (with the first three being deep sleep, dream sleep, and waking). That gap is what the NeoPlatonists called the One. In Christian mysticism the One is the source, the Father to whom we address the Lord’s Prayer. The Father is the imperceptible source of beatitude.
There are gaps and there are gaps. After the ascent of the soul, where the gap was the climax, “I” was in a state of desireless bliss. In reflection, I came to see the gap as the portal to the source of that bliss, the source of transcending/satisfying all my heart’s desires. Now, in ordinary meditation, recollecting that gap helps me cultivate inner silence. By the way, last weekend after I did Yoni Mudra Kumbhaka (lesson #91) and Dynamic Jalandhara – Chin Pump (lesson #139) I came as close as I have ever come to repeating that desireless bliss state.
I’m thinking now as I write that I see the “witness” consciousness as a continuum. On one end, the witness is identified with the flux of my ordinary ego functioning. On the other end, the extreme end of the continuum, the witness is identified with the One. When I am cultivating inner silence, I am moving the witness toward the One.
Bewell
Its funny Bewell that you got this topic on “the witness” up this morning. I have been contemplating if I should write this… I was going to ask all of you, if what I was experiencing was the witness. I really don’t care to give it a name… but just wondering. For the past few days I have a constant feeling of a presence of something/someone (I prefer thinking of it as Ma Kali) in me/with me… esp. when I am alone… driving, reading or doing some mindless work. I cannot explain it… its there … I don’t see it, cannot feel it… just know its there… gives me a feeling of being full in my heart… a smile on my face… like nothing can get to me… When I do get caught up in something… there is this thing that reminds me breath… and everything is back to where it was before I got all caught up. I have noticed people talk to me more lovingly these days (except for a few who were born to trouble me)… even people who did not really care for me before… ask me stuff in a nice way now. I feel more confident dealing and talking with people… I don’t seem to be so scared of what people will think of me… what if I make a fool of myself… My mind is definitely not in the “now” all the time… I still live in the past or the future…(as per Tolle)… but I don’t get caught up in it as much as I used to… I still don’t see lights during meditation, or see or feel the energy move from my head to my heart when I do Jalandhar… I don’t see or feel a lot of things that so many of you seem to experience… but there is something different in me now… Is this the witness so many of you talk about?
The funny thing is… I do my AYP practices just once a day… the second time is a hit or miss… I get so busy with everything else that the second session, I do, if get a chance… Not very happy about this… esp. since Yogani says we should be consistent… I have been telling myself… I am creating the groundwork for the future… another 8 year… both my kids will be in college… then I can devote all my time towards my spiritual path… did not realize how strong AYP was… it just sweeps you off your feet doesn’t it? Thank you Yogani for sharing this wonderful practice with us …
Hello Shanti,
more power to your path – that all sounds good. It’s all a continuum you know. It sounds like you are going into a state of spiritual well-being, where you feel a Loving Presence. There are elements of ‘Witness’ in the business of not being easily disturbed. There is a time-lag right now between disturbance and its correction. At the other end of the continuum, then that time-lag goes down to zero, that is Witness.
‘Witness’, at least when complete and strong, is self-determined. It’s not looking for anything to reassure it or orient it. It just is and watches. When it settles down, it doesn’t even find anything amazing about what it is and is doing.
Which came first, self-determinedness, or the ability to simply watch and be a witness? Probably the self-determinedness, truly.
Thanks Bewell. I think you have made a clear and accurate expression of what the ‘witness’ means.
[quote]Originally posted by david_obsidian
It sounds like you are going into a state of spiritual well-being, where you feel a Loving Presence.
Hi David,
I’ve been reflecting on Shanti’s words for about an hour, trying to empathize. Your summary, which I found upon returning to this forum, fits with part of what Shanti said: "I have a constant feeling of a presence of something/someone…” I like what you say about what witness is.
But further on in Shanti’s post, she says something slightly, but I think significantly different: "its there … I don’t see it, cannot feel it. just know its there… gives me a feeling of being full in my heart… a smile on my face… like nothing can get to me…
I’m interested in the part where she makes a careful distinction, she cannot feel it but just knows. The feeling of being full in heart is an effect of this particular knowing. I tried it. I let myself “just knew” there was something/someone present. And, like Shanti said, I felt full in heart, confident.
And --here is the kicker – while that shift happened, I observed the shift from a detached vantage-point. I observed myself knowing and feeling. And, in addition, I noticed that the observer consciousness and the Other were sort of interpenetrated.
Is that detached observational skill “witness?”
Bewell
Hi Bewell,
Great insights into the witness. I particularly liked this:
This insight sheds light on the process for me.
thank you,
Anthem
Oh, Hi David,
I posted the above before I saw your comment to me. We must have clicked the submit reply at about the same time.
Hi Anthem,
I’m glad that was helpful. I have the forum to thank for giving me a context for this kind of reflection. I love this forum.
Bewell said:
And --here is the kicker – while that shift happened, I observed the shift from a detached vantage-point. I observed myself knowing and feeling. And, in addition, I noticed that the observer consciousness and the Other were sort of interpenetrated.
Is that detached observational skill “witness?”
I think ‘The Witness’ can be seen as a Set of Skills, but also a Position or a Frame of Mind, or a State of Being. The differences are matters of semantic convention. We probably won’t get great precision (and shouldn’t necessarily look for it) but rather just be as clear as we can in the context.
When I use the word ‘Witness’ I am usually referring to the Position aspect, rather than the Set of Skills aspect. The Position is Unattached – ‘unattached’ may be a better word than ‘detached’ – ‘Detached’ seems to imply a history of an attachment that was severed.
Certainly, a Set of Skills come with Witness, one way or another. You can call that Set of Skills ‘Witness’ if you want to. There’s no precise agreement or convention on what these words are to mean.
When you touch the Witness state you are Informed by it, usually, to some extent, forever. Some part of you knows that that is there, waiting for you. Some part of you can no longer be harmed. Your being Informed by the Witness, and the Set of Skills it brings, are inseparable.
Hi All:
Obviously, there are many ways to look at “the witness.” As many ways as there are means to cultivate it and people to experience it. It is at one time an occasional revelation, another time an ongoing separation (that untouched feeling), then a permanent state from which both structured and unstructured practice can be conducted, and, finally, a joining back into all of our activity as “stillness in action,” that endless outpouring of divine love – a paradox to end all our paradoxes. Indeed, the universe is that from the beginning, yes? An outpouring from stillness. Who says something can’t be made out of nothing?
I don’t see the witness itself as “a skill,” though I understand how it could be seen that way. It is “a priori” – self-evident, uncreated and unmoving, even as it moves outward through us. It is arrived at as a natural state of being through skill (yoga) applied beforehand and ongoing. Once it emerges as what we are, the witness is cognized as our state of being – the effortless foundation of our 24 hour existence. From there, that state of being can be used for further development, but that is not the witness as skill. It is using our state of being as witness to move forward with increasing clarity of empathy and discrimination. In that way, inner silence moves steadily outward into our environment of thoughts, feelings, body and physical surroundings. We could say it is the witness using the witness to achieve the fullness of self-awareness. The witness doesn’t move, but it does everything.
And then we know: “I am That, you are That, and all this is That.”
It is Love, omnipresent and everlasting in this grand illusion we call time and space…
Well, these are just words. Much better to come to know the real thing via practices, and describe it accordingly, which everyone is doing beautifully here. It can be explained in many ways. It is wonderful to have the thing happening to explain. Of course, like everything else, all skill emanates naturally from the witness. That is why we say, cultivate inner silence in deep meditation and the rest will happen. Bravo for that!
The guru is in you.
David wrote:
Thank you, David. I love it.
May all your Nows be Here
Yogani wrote:
You know how to extract/refine the essence of this discussion and enhance it in a simple way. And that simplicity somehow includes us all. Thank you, Yogani.
May all your Nows be Here
Thanks Katrine.