no argument from me. I’m talking about a progression. The speed and shape of the progression will surely differ among different people. And I don’t think it matters, because we’re all going to experience all of this in time. Those driven (via bhakti, not intellect) to experience it ASAP will, inherently, have the bhakti to move faster. It’s a nice tidy equation.
yup, I’m with you still
That hints at a western moralistic religious view (I don’t say that pejoratively or condescendingly). You are certainly welcome to the interpretation, but it’s not my intuition, nor is it the teachings of the rishis (though the vedas, et al, are so extensive that one can find a quote here or there to prove any point). We all brim with karma (the residue of the futile grasping/recoiling we all do every second). My believe is that it’s not demerits handed out by a disapproving God. It’s just mud on our windshields.
In any case, it doesn’t matter. We’ve got a big big problem: we’re miserable and we’re suffering and some of us have the dim perception that we are actually creating our own misery and suffering and missing something divine that seems to lurk around somewhere. We have a solution: AYP (or other such practices). For my part, I prefer not to look under the hood, but to invest all energy into fixing the screaming, gnawing problem rather than understanding its mechanics. See the Buddha’s parable of the dying man and the arrow in my posting here: http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=742&whichpage=2
Re: the other stuff, it seems erudite (insofar as I’m able to gauge), but it doesn’t really speak to me, and I don’t have much to comment on it. I don’t mean that as a put down at ALL…different strokes for different folks! Look, I’m doing my thing, and it works for me. But we all have to find our respective ways.
Meg, yes, the desire for God is indeed just another desire that must eventually be cast upon the yogic flame. But it will likely spur you to clear more mud from your windows than will a desire for bon bons or Camaros. If you can just be, without processing your existence with your mental photoshop, there’s no need for anything. All your wishes are already true. Per Aditya’s naive wish to be Bill Gates, the problem’s all in the wishing. Gates is miserable. Camaro owners are miserable. Bon bon eaters are miserable. The problem is not the things we lack, because when we get those things, the problem remains! The problem’s not the lack, it’s the failure to recognize that we lack nothing.
My wish? I wish to bathe in an endless sea of love, and be more than the sum of my unquenchable desires and aversions and my unremitting mind. Poof.
Hello All,
Siddhi’s to me must be of importance. Jesus displayed the use of them as did Lahiri Mahasaya with bi-location and such. Yogani’s book “The Secrets of Wilder” also takes advantage of siddhi’s. Some of them displayed without real intent and others with intent. The real point is that we shouldn’t be attached to them or have them control our desires. I agree with Frank. They will come by Grace if we have prepared ourselves. God wouldn’t throw “pearls before swine”.
With Peace,
Paul
Jim, First, thx for taking the time to write this and collect the ideas succinctly. The comment on you get what you earn is another way of saying action-reaction, or karmic results. Now, that said, our free will ( again a gift) can make a difference for ones course of action. The karmic results sets the stage you/we work in to exercise our free will. Most but not all folks think ‘oh , karma, you are talking of the negative results of an action’. Karma delivers both - it’s a Equal Employment Opportunity Dispatcher - good /bad/middling , doesn’t matter.
Here’s my understanding - and I yield to rishi Vasistha for his words not mine: [ from the Vasistha Yoga, a brilliant work from one of the most respected brahmarishi’s this planet has been able to house.] ‘Fate is none other then self-effort of a past incarnation. the latter [ or past incarnation ]counteracts the former [ this birth]. There is constant conflict between these two in this incarnation… there is no power greater than right action in the present. Hence, one should take recourse to self-effort, grinding one’s teeth, and one should overcome evil by good and fate by present effort’
Jim, this tells me we can overcome the influence of past actions if we have the resolve, yet we are working within the world that we crafted based upon past selections. For me, and my orientation, this is not a “western moralistic religious view” as perhaps suggested.
Bottom line to this overall conversation and my principles that I firmly believe:
In the long run, no one will be left behind, we are all destined to Moksha.
in the short term, ones’ experiences can be fast, slow, middling, flat line; this may look like a Company on the New York stock exchange. It ( ones experiences ) looks like a company’s stock price over 1/4 or 1/2 of the year… ups, downs, sideway movement, but in general, always progressing up and to the right ( if you are a blue chip!).
Sometimes a smooth ride is desirable, but does not turn out that way, based upon Vashistha’s information. Is this just words? Not for me. I have seen this in others, myself, etc. What I cannot ‘see’ is the continuity of smoothness over several lives…perhaps one day. This may be the case.
Thanks for letting me explain my perspective on this…I am eager to gain new info - I am a student of life, willing to incorporate new knowledge and always willing listen to others POV.
I understand what you want to say, Jim. But you sound too quick and subjective in your judgement, especially the term “wholly miserable” you put on Bill Gates. I think only he himself could know whether he is miserable or not.
I’m not so sure. I’ve been thinking about this for a while - the possibliity that we can take any one of our desires and follow it through to its completion, and it will lead to us inward to the Self (or the Source, or God, or however we think of THAT). It can’t be casual; there has to be commitment toward the goal of realizing the fulfillment of that particular desire. So if you have a burning desire to own a Camaro, and the desire doesn’t wane as the years tick by, then you would do well to commit yourself to following that desire to its bitter end. Buy the damn thing, drive it for all it’s worth, bask in the glow of being a Camaro owner, and, eventually, come to the end of the road, as it were, where desire meets disappointment. This is the place you want to end up. How many thousands of books have been written on this subject? The place of emptiness and void, enlightenment and suicide. I’m not ready to write my own book quite yet, as I don’t profess to have anything of major value to say on the subject. Except maybe this:
Desire is too often overlooked as a tremendously powerful tool to bring us ‘home’ to ourselves. And the desire for God is so often twisted and polluted by ignorance that it might just as well be a desire for a Camaro. (How many people have pursued a burning desire for God and ended up in some weird cult? They shoulda bought the Camaro). I’m not ready to call one desire holy and another profane, as it’s all drawn from the same well. If someone has an unquenchable desire to attain siddhis, go for it! See where it takes you.
Hi meg !
Yes,I do have a burning desire for God, for truth,
and yes, I did end up in a weird cult (!) …
but I also came out of it because of my desire for God and truth,
and that desire leads me onward on my path.
Concerning siddhis: did Jesus show his miracles because he wanted
to show-off his powers ? Probably not. I believe he showed them
to awaken the people, make them realise there is more that eyes
can see. Did this help the people ? Did it help even those whom
he healed ?
Would it help todays society if a miracle performing Jesus came up ?
If it can help us (the world) to realise that there is more than
a materialistic worldview, then it might be worth to consider
learning some siddhis (for the sake of showing the world).
Thanks for the kind words, Frank. I hope we are all inches away too. Not just us AYP-practicing folks, but all of humanity… I say “yet” because I strongly feel that 24/7 bliss is possible through AYP.
Meg said: Do you think that’s true? I’d like it to be true, but there seem to be plenty of cases where siddhis were meted out to reckless gurus or plain folk who used them for personal gain.
Hey Meg. You’re probably right… but I’m guessing the people who use siddhis for personal gain are probably the ones with mere parlor tricks, rather than anything really significant. I don’t know anyone with siddhis, but I’m thinking you’re more likely to get them if your intentions are pure (using them not for ego benefit, but for all beings). For example, Jesus could raise the dead because his motivation was pure. Bob down the street can probably read your mind, but what good does that really do anyone?
What about charisma? That might not be considered a siddhi to most people, but if you’re a leader and don’t have it, you’ll come to think of it as one. I’m tallking profound charisma, like MLK (who used it well) or Bill Clinton (who can’t seem to help himself). Do you know that he recently walked into a New York theater with his daughter, as part of the audience, and the whole auditorium stood and applauded him? That’s charisma. And power, if one chooses to use it that way. Jesus had it to the extreme, and from what we’re told, used it to help people, rather than impress them, but in doing so he inevitably brought the focus to himself. That part is par for the course with siddhis, and it would take someone with little or no ego to handle it well. Etherfish would be a great candidate. It is recorded that when the spotlight came on him, Jesus pointed to God the Father and said pithy words like, All this and more will you do too in the name of the Father. Which neatly places the whole siddhi thihg in some perspective.
I understand what you want to say, Jim. But you sound too quick and subjective in your judgement, especially the term “wholly miserable” you put on Bill Gates. I think only he himself could know whether he is miserable or not.
I disagree. I know many people caught in the drudge of every day life, with sunken chests and defeated shoulders, who sigh and show their faces as pinched masks of stress and disappointment, who "get no satisfaction" but who think they're perfectly fine (in fact, some stake their very self image on their perfectly fine-ness). Because they don't have anything to compare it to. I have something to compare it to, so I'm more disappointed for them than they are for themselves.
I guess what I'm saying is the diff between being miserable and feeling as if you're miserable. Feeling as if your'e miserable is just another fold in the wet blanket. Being miserable is the problem, whether you self-witness it or not.
As to the prevalent misery level, I believe that as you continue with AYP, and observe the world through ever clearer glass, you'll notice that the magnitude of The Problem is far, far worse than you'd imagine. One of the hallmarks of depression (which I know very well myself) is the conviction that others are happier and more fulfilled than you are. Having escaped my depression, I've been shocked to note that misery is pandemic. There are allusions to this in all manner of art and literature. And you catch snippets of this underlying pervasie dissatisfaction in people's speech. But by observing people day in, day out, you'll get an increasing conviction that, deep down, everyone is waiting for the carrot. Even Bill Gates, Donald Trump, and Hugh Hefner.
This is not an analytical conclusion. It's intuitive. But while you're an analytical guy, that doesn't mean intuitive conclusions are less useful :)
I’m not so sure. I’ve been thinking about this for a while - the possibliity that we can take any one of our desires and follow it through to its completion, and it will lead to us inward to the Self (or the Source, or God, or however we think of THAT). It can’t be casual; there has to be commitment toward the goal of realizing the fulfillment of that particular desire. So if you have a burning desire to own a Camaro, and the desire doesn’t wane as the years tick by, then you would do well to commit yourself to following that desire to its bitter end. Buy the damn thing, drive it for all it’s worth, bask in the glow of being a Camaro owner, and, eventually, come to the end of the road, as it were, where desire meets disappointment. This is the place you want to end up. How many thousands of books have been written on this subject? The place of emptiness and void, enlightenment and suicide. I’m not ready to write my own book quite yet, as I don’t profess to have anything of major value to say on the subject. Except maybe this:
Desire is too often overlooked as a tremendously powerful tool to bring us ‘home’ to ourselves. And the desire for God is so often twisted and polluted by ignorance that it might just as well be a desire for a Camaro. (How many people have pursued a burning desire for God and ended up in some weird cult? They shoulda bought the Camaro). I’m not ready to call one desire holy and another profane, as it’s all drawn from the same well. If someone has an unquenchable desire to attain siddhis, go for it! See where it takes you.
What you're talking about is at the heart of the occult. And occult isn't far from tantra, and tantra isn't far from yoga. But occult is pretty far from yoga. I just want to make sure you understand where this path leads.
It is strange… I was just thinking of that… I was talking to a friend 5 min back … and could hear her complain and complain and complain… I just couldn’t take it any more… no much negativity… so much unnecessary pain… so much bitterness with life… and my head is still spinning… and then I realized I have talked to her so many times before… and she has always been like this… she is still the same… then something must have happened to me?
OMG… I think I was just like that… maybe still am… and a lot of people I know are like that…
So much wasted energy…
Bill Gates sad? I’d disagree. As long as he stays busy empire building, he’s very happy and passionate and living a very full life bringing great benefit to others despite his shortcomings. You won’t catch him wondering ‘what it’s all about,’ staying in bed too long, or complaining about his parents. I’d say the same of Hefner too. He grew up in an extremely unhappy, puritanical environment and he promised to live a happier life than his parents and he really has helped the world shake off the chains of repression like few others. As long as he stays busy, he’s happy.
I think the problem comes with these superstars is when they their attention away from their gifts, like sports stars retiring from basketball or Michael Jackson drifting away from his muse, etc.
As a related topic, I think that the “the business world yana” is a pranayama only type teaching which is glitchy and edgy and very few practitioners can master it in any stable way. And even they often have a hard time staying in the saddle. I also think that these superstars have learned the pranayama side of the equation from mentors and the business culture, but that they have meditation like habits that they have discovered on their own to create more stability and bliss so that all the affirmation/hard work stuff actually goes somewhere.
Jim - I don’t understand either of these. I’m not saying that I don’t agree - I’d just like you to elaborate a bit. My understanding of occult is negligible; of tantra is minimal, but I do understand that only the extreme branches of tantra are considered occultist, and they play a small part. Anyway, I’d like to understand your meaning.
If I thought you knew more about the occult, I wouldn’t have let you know! I think I’ve given a pretty good explanation of the classical yogic thinking in this thread. The stuff you’ve disagreed/deviated has represented (without your realizing) either the occult viewpoint or a viewpoint strongly headed that way, especially that last posting.
Yoga’s about dropping desires (retaining for a while one single desire: the desire to drop desires). Working with and through desires is occult (yes, samayama has to do with desires, but we detach from them and surrender the result for the use of God, as yogis surrender all the fruits of our actions).
You’ve sort of stumbled upon it, I know, but I’m letting you know that’s where your tack is headed. It’s not something I can expand upon knowledgably, cuz I “don’t go there”. There’s lots of occult that can be read about (e.g. Crowley).
Jim said ‘I know many people caught in the drudge of every day life, with sunken chests and defeated shoulders, who sigh and show their faces as pinched masks of stress and disappointment, who “get no satisfaction” but who think they’re perfectly fine (in fact, some stake their very self image on their perfectly fine-ness). Because they don’t have anything to compare it to. I have something to compare it to, so I’m more disappointed for them than they are for themselves.’
Well after just nearing completion of a year of person centred counselling at college I would suggest that even those of us who think we are ‘alright’ would benefit from counselling of some sort.
Yoda said ’ think the problem comes with these superstars is when they their attention away from their gifts, like sports stars retiring from basketball or Michael Jackson drifting away from his muse, etc.’
Why do you consider these people superstars? Just because they are in the public eye and well known doesn’t mean they are superstars.I don’t consider people in the public eye who alledgedly take illegal drugs, commit crime, abuse others and all the other things that other mere mortals do, are superstars anymore than you are.
I hope I’m never considered a superstar if I need to waste my life on some of these needless things.
L&L
Dave
‘the mind can see further than the eyes’
Re: superstars…as we go down the list, getting everything we wish for and still feeling discontent, we push outward toward ever more extreme examples we can point to as the magic solution to making us feel whole. I may be worth 100 million, but I feel like crap. Ah, if I had the money of Bill GATES…then all would be well.
As I drive to the store, and hit red lights or slow traffic, I live for arriving at that store. And arriving never feels that great. 'cuz I’m hungry. And eating feels ok, but soon the next thing takes hold. If I only had a raise at work…but I get the raise, and soon things are just off again. I hook up with the blonde, I get the Camaro, I lose the 150 pounds, yet it’s still not right. Wishes come true and we don’t feel better (at least not for long, and not much). Nothing’s right. We still feel empty and dissatisfied and disconnected and disappointed and anxious and depressed and lacking. So maybe if I had a harem of 200 blondes, a billion dollars in the bank, the ability to make wine from water and read minds, and sprouted a seventeen foot lingham…maybe THEN.
We are so frigging dumb. We don’t catch on. We are as stupid as dogs running at the track chasing the mechanical rabbit. We have all the big picture view of a racing dog.
Anyone who sticks his head up from this Matrix-like situation sees the problem. And if you see the problem, you know what needs to be done. You have no choice to come to the conclusion that you actually lack absolutely nothing in this exact moment, and the problem’s all in your mind’s perspective…its obsession for grasping and recoiling, for preference and aversion. http://www.allspirit.co.uk/hsinhsinming.html
If you do this spiritual work to clear your view sufficiently to see The Problem, and your reaction is to say “great! now I can get really cool super powers!”, you are still in the delusion. Still running like an unknowing beast around the rabbit track. Adding to your blondes and camaros.
Hello Folks,
I was just reading the following, and it applies to this conversation:
“Tantra activates many powerful subtle energies in our body and mind and,if we do not have any mental training or discipline, this excess energy will take the path of least resistance through our negative emotions of attachment, jealousy, pride, egotism, and so on” - Lama Ganchen
If/when one is gifted or achieves a siddhi or two how will s/he react? Lama Ganchen suggests if there is no discipline to that individual, the its ‘business as usual’ and lets take this act to the carnival! Yet the one that is focused and underatands this power need not put it up for display.
Now, where does that discipline reside? This is the key reason ( I belive ) why you do not see accomplished sadhu’s doing side shows at Ringling Bros. They are disiplined - Yama and Niyama perhaps?
How would you act?
Just a thought…
Not sure what kind, or effect of, powerful subtle energies Lama Ganchen was refering to, but I would guess that powerful siddhis, like the ‘Jesus kind of powers’ if you will, might come available after attatchment, jealousy, pride, egotism and etc. are transcended. Then one might be beyond the need to exercise Yama and Niyama.
It is recorded that when the spotlight came on him, Jesus pointed to God the Father and said pithy words like, All this and more will you do too in the name of the Father. Which neatly places the whole siddhi thihg in some perspective.