I asked this question in the Tantra section and I know I have asked before, but I think it deserves a thread of its own. (It is probably discussed in several other places and any links are welcome.)
But still, I can’t help wonder about your experiences of mind-thought transformation during the purification process. It is described as being only a “servant” for the enlightened. It will work as the “machine” it was designed to be. But is its personality, thought patterns and preferences going to be EXACTLY the same as before? To what degree will it change? My thought patterns change with every insight I get. I have an idea that the further I go on my journey, my mind will be more and more pleasent to be with. Is that your experience? But to what degree will I be “depersonalized”?
Please note, that I am not talking about not identifying with the mind. That is another thing. I am aiming at the mind that I will no longer identify with eventually - what characteristics of it will I still recognize as being “my good old mind, oh, I know you but all too well”?
In what ways have your thoughts changed so far? How is your mind working?
Have you noticed any decrease in negative thought patterns and increase in positive thought patterns? Examples?
Have you changed any of your preferences - likes or dislikes - whether it concerns people, things, situations or anything?
Hi EMC:
The initial difference is in having more choice on the thoughts we entertain from the position of rising inner silence (pure bliss consciousness). Thoughts gradually become like objects we can move around at will, and subconscious mental structures have less and less sway in our life. Over time, all thinking becomes illuminated from within with love, strength, creativity and bliss, and we can choose even better.
The guru is in you.
Thanks for your reply, Yogani… I’m not sure I understand, though.
So, lets say I for many years have had a thought that I beleived in before that said “I have to take a drink now, because I feel sad and can’t stand the feeling” and have behaved accordingly to that thought. Then, after maturing (perhaps therapy or 12-step), I have discovered I never have that thought anylonger because I don’t need it. It just isn’t there - just a memory of it “I used to think I had to take a drink when I was sad”. Then will the thought “I have to take a drink now, because I feel sad and can’t stand the feeling” fly through my mind again for me to look at as an object, although I haven’t had it for years? What on earth would awake that thought?
Hi EMC:
You would still have the thought, but would have less tendency to choose it. In not choosing the thought, it will become weaker over time, until it is hardly noticed at all. This is the dissolving of samskara to the so-called “burnt seed” level, where pure bliss consciousness does the burning via divine outpouring and the subsequent changes in the choices we make. Those seeds can sprout a little anytime down the road due to the karmic currents constantly flowing in us. But with abiding inner silence present and the corresponding habit of choosing, they are burnt again.
The work of Byron Katie (Book: “Loving what Is”) is a good application of the choosing principle, though it takes inner silence for it, or any choosing, to go consistently higher.
The reason 12 step programs work so well is because they involve surrender to a higher power/ideal, which is bhakti. Bhakti all by itself will cultivate inner silence. We can also go on to deep meditation and samyama to get the inner silence engine really humming and manifesting in our life.
There is little chance of thinking our way through it without another aspect of practice brought in that cultivates inner silence. Any jnana/intellect-based system that works will have the element of inner silence brought in somehow. Without that, intellectual methods alone are like pushing on a string, or building castles in the air, or both!
The guru is in you.
Gosh I have so much to
say
but for me I become more conscious…
for example I know who’s talking about me
I know who will walk through the door next
I know who will call
I can make better informed decisions
I can look at things at a variety of angles
most importantly I can tell when someone is lying
I can use my mind to point me in the direction when things are lost
Basically you are more conscious…for me
Together with the senses you can tell alot
The mind works in combination with the spirit
Namaste
This is why saints and masters take it to the next level with internal mantra or prayer.
Once the body is purified to the proper amount, the internal fixation is the next biological step.
One can feel the most profound difference from an unconscious mind, pre meditation, to a still mind after some years of meditation. And I would imagine, it is equally or more dramatic a change after one has fixated and automated an internal dialogue/mantra/prayer with god.
- In what ways have your thoughts changed so far? How is your mind working?
EMC, my mind has stopped working. I am not used to it yet… and I am not sure how long I can go on this way… but the mind refuses to think and think and think… worry and worry and worry… Nothing has gone wrong so far… I have not forgotten one appointment, not one thing that I am supposed to do for the day was forgotten, and yet… I have not planned anything for awhile… its like I am on autopilot… I understand now that I have no control over my life… I think I do, but whatever happens was going to happen anyway… whether I worried about it or not. Really, I am still waiting for this system to crash!!! … But I cannot seem to fight it.
Yogani, what I am saying, does it make sense? or am I not understanding this right? - Have you noticed any decrease in negative thought patterns and increase in positive thought patterns? Examples?
Yes, nothing seems wrong anymore… Its not that I don’t think negative… but “the work” kicks in automatically and turns it around… Just thought about it this morning… after reading Christi’s post in the other thread… other than 4 people who have really hurt me and changed my life completely (and I plan on working on these 4), there is no other soul I have any kind of negative feelings for anymore.
I will give an example you quoted in another thread… “If I smile at someone and the person does not smile back it often gives me a feeling of disappointment and a feeling that is a bit awkward - it diminishes the good mood I had that made me smile in the first place.”… “Now smiling is rather pleasant so I smile whenever because it affects the environment positively most of the times, …”… are you making an effort to do this anymore… no, its second nature to you now… isn’t it? If the other person does not smile back, you are still happy … it used to be very strange, before, when I walked down the street… and I smiled at 6 people, 5 smiled back and the 6th did not… I would be all upset as to why he did not smile back… and get a big story in my head… and think and think and think… not caring for the fact that the other 5 smiled back… - Have you changed any of your preferences - likes or dislikes - whether it concerns people, things, situations or anything?
I don’t like or dislike anything… (expect maybe drinking milk… I don’t think I can still do that ), like I said, everything is perfect… so there cannot be anything right or wrong anymore… I do go through phases when I wish people around me would accept me changing… but right at this moment, I don’t think I would want to change anything… none of the minor or major irritations. Everything has a place, and whether I like it or not… it will stay there and nothing in life is constant… so why get attached to anything that will change. One thing that has helped me a lot was a statement you made in an email to me… “What you fear most will manifest, you know, according to the law of attraction”… I replaced the word “fear” with “thoughts”… I really think this is true… you are what you think you are and your world around you reflects you.
Hi emc
Great topic! I’ve noticed a few changes in my thoughts and the way my mind works, since doing AYP:
Less negative and critical thoughts
More positive and loving thoughts
Less imaginary conversations in my head (except last night )
More praying
More creative and playful thoughts
No more negative self-talk (“Stop being stupid”, etc.)
Less dialogue/constant thought streams going on in the background
There might be other changes I’m not aware of now, because sometimes it takes time to notice them… like when I realized that I don’t talk down to myself anymore, I was pleasantly shocked. I used to do that all the time, and I don’t think I’ve done it in many many months, maybe more than a year!
As for likes/dislikes, I’m more accepting of people and life situations in general. I find that I like people, even with their annoying personality quirks that used to just piss me off. I can see something positive or beautiful in nearly everyone now (more easily with women - they are angels )
Have you noticed any changes, emc? You are practicing too, no?
Thanks for your replies.
What I sense then, from what you all say, is that the mind DOES go throu quite a bit of change. The “burnt seed”-level means I will NOT have to put up with my tiresome mind and my samskaras I have today. That is clearing things out for me. So I will have a much calmer mind. I will not have my old likes and dislikes in the same way as before.
What made me think of it, also an answer to cosmic troll, is that I do not really feel any difference between what has happened with my mind during my whole life of maturing through experience, therapy and self-inquiry and what is happening now after practicing AYP-meditation. My mind, and following feelings and behavior, has always been changing more or less. I have gone from hating my mind and wished for a brain transplantation all my life, cursing it, feeling I was so unlucky to get this particular mind as a travel partner for the rest of my life - to actually starting to like my mind, although not fully.
But all talk about “the mind will still be there, you just wont identify with it” has not been very encouraging for me. If the mind will finally become a “mature” and nice machine, something I have always worked for, it sounds promising.
So whatever mental state one think one is in right now, it will not be the same state one will be “seeing” and “handling like objects” when one is there…
Insights that you get along the life journey, and especially those that go deep into emotional levels, changes thoughts whether it is accompanied with meditation or not.
Yogani[quote]
Any jnana/intellect-based system that works will have the element of inner silence brought in somehow. Without that, intellectual methods alone are like pushing on a string, or building castles in the air, or both!
[/quote]
Hm… I guess this is why development may occur with different psychological methods, although the practitioners are unaware of the underlying “motor” doing the job. Modern psychotherapy is very seldom only intellectual job. In fact, the latest so called “third wave” of cognitive therapies include mindfulness and are based on spiritual knowledge - AND they dare to be open with it. It is being applied here in Sweden at the biggest psychiatric care institutions by some of the greates professors! I am very happy and encourage that!
Shanti, I don’t know why, but I get so joyful when reading your post! Thank you for that! I just experienced one of those “smiling” situations the other day. I went into the local restaurant where me and my ex always were met with the greatest smiles when we entered. Now I came without his company and was not honoured with a smile. My first thoughts were negative and petty “So, they don’t like me, it was only my ex they smiled at”. But almost immediately I just cracked up in a smile, felt peace inside and the thoughts were gone. I saw they were very busy and just knew that them smiling or not had nothing to do with me. It was not my business and I got a still and happy mind.
I connect this diminishing of likes and dislikes with a lecture I heard on the buddhist theory of personalities. I don’t know if I have written about it, if so, sorry for repeating.
Buddhist divide people into hateful, greedy or delusioned types - I’ll leave out the last one. The hateful is full of negative thoughts, always noticing dislikes, what s/he does not want. The greedy is full of positive thoughts, always noticing likes and what s/he wants. The suggestion for development is for the hateful to see to that s/he always is comfortable, have a beautiful, clean and nice environment to be in. The greedy on the other hand should learn to live with dirt, bugs, uncomfortable furniture etc. Further, the hateful ones were said to reach enlightenment much quicker than the greedy ones, because it is much easier to detect and see through the “lie” in hateful thoughts than in greedy thoughts. To get rid of dislikes is more welcome than to get rid of likes.
So… this made me even more curious about your LIKES. Is the buddhist teachings wrong in this, or is it some truth in it? Is it really necessary to see through ones likes as well? Or can you just let them be there, because they add happiness into your life, or will they eventually lose their magic as well? Will the likes change as much as the dislikes? Or less, or not at all?
What is your experiences?
I have noticed that my big LIKE of horses has diminished a lot! I still like horses and horse back riding, but I do not miss it when I am not riding. I do not think of horses the way I used to. I do not get excited in the same way when I get a loving contact with a horse. My dependency of horses for feeling joy is gone.
emc wrote: [quote]
Modern psychotherapy is very seldom only intellectual job. In fact, the latest so called “third wave” of cognitive therapies include mindfulness and are based on spiritual knowledge - AND they dare to be open with it. It is being applied here in Sweden at the biggest psychiatric care institutions by some of the greates professors! I am very happy and encourage that!
[/quote]Glad to see you are familiar with the fact that psychotherapy is starting to come out of the dark ages and using something like “mindfulness”.
This is also starting to happen in Dublin where one of our leading psychiatrists has been pioneering mindfulness in his work to great effect. In the Tuesday meditation I’m involved in there are several psychotherapists (not of the cognitive schools and not Freudian) also pioneering mindfulness in their work.
This is indeed a great leap forward and I am doing my little bit by hosting a website to facilitate some of this www.mindfulness-ireland.org
Hopefully soon we can convince them of the benefits of using AYP in conjunction with psychotherapy, as I have found it accelerates the process of becoming mindful
Louis
This doesn’t seem to be a topic of great interest, probably because you have come so far. Nevertheless, it is an issue for me right now, and I wonder if anyone would be so kind and give me some encouraging truths? I have a really bad day, and I feel I need some reminders of what is true.
Cosmic troll wrote: [quote]
As for likes/dislikes, I’m more accepting of people and life situations in general. I find that I like people, even with their annoying personality quirks that used to just piss me off. I can see something positive or beautiful in nearly everyone now (more easily with women - they are angels )
[/quote]
I have never liked this life, people or mankind in my whole life. It is a huge change I am going thru and have to go thru. I try not to push myself. I try to start liking myself at least - then I know it will change my world view as well. But I do not see very much beautiful in many people. You said “especially in women”. I agree, but turn it to: Especially not in men - they are “monkeys” compared to women. In the shallow sense -> they do not fix themselves with make-up, fitness programs, nice long hair, nice finger nails or anything - as if they were perfectly okey the way they are, if they just clean themselves. They do not even try to make themselves look better than the original. That seems to be women’s duty… How am I to see beauty in men? Sensuality, softness and love in men? Natural, relaxed movements, dancing and being free? Where? I don’t see it. Men in touch with their inner divine female energies? I do not find them.
I trust this is a phase. I trust I will not be here forever. I try to “Katie” this thought as much as I can, but today I feel hopeless. Do I really have to love this world as it is? The thought stressing me is that I sort of have a “duty” to work with this, although I do not yet like the “goal”.
Please, if anyone wants to help me transform my tiresome mind and say something wise?
Hi EMC:
Your mind is not you. It is a machine running on old subconscious baggage, and the attention you invest in it, which reinforces it. If you can observe your mind and thoughts as objects, without investing in what does not serve your wellbeing, those old kneejerk patterns will gradually fade (that’s Katie and all of self-inquiry in a nutshell). This is not active rejection of particular thought patterns, which is more mental projection. It is favoring what nurtures us, and letting go of what does not. Abiding inner silence (witness/self) helps a lot in this. It is what nurtures us. It is us. Hence, daily deep meditation, samyama, etc.
There will be ups and downs on our sea of stillness. Yet, we remain unchanged…
The guru is in you.
Emc,
Desiring others to be different from what they are will just bring you down. If I were you, I’d just focus on the many lovely aspects of your life: how great meditation is, the fact that you have a guru just a forum post away, how nice many women you know are, how progressive Sweden is as a government, how nice it is that the sun shines, etc. Eventually, the men you meet will be nicer. But there’s no rush… even a planet 100% full of monkey boys can be fun too. I’ve heard it said that it’s considered a real honor to be on this planet right now regardless of nationality, health, wealth, religion, happiness, etc. I like to think that is true.
-Yodster
Yogani,
I was wondering if you would care to unpack the “reality is a projection of one’s mind” idea. That thinking about baggage actually creates more of it in the realm of thought as well as attracts experiences that reinforces those thoughts.
I am a believer in it and I’m wondering what the yogic angle is on this sort of philosophy.
Yours,
Yoda
Hi Yoda:
I don’t necessarily buy the “reality is a projection of our mind” idea; as in, nothing exists except through our projection of it. Sometimes “serious” jnana (discrimination) can lead to the nonsensical in this respect - “That truck that just ran over me doesn’t exist, and neither do I, anymore!”
However, our interpretation of reality and thinking about what it is (and acting/karma-ing that out) is just as you say, building layers and layers of “knee-jerks” (samskaras/baggage) in the subconscious mind/nervous system, and then we find ourselves living within our own illusions, often not even knowing we are in that mode. And so it goes.
Of course, the full scope of yoga is for unwinding all of this, and the whole thing can be taken back to the original “happy” of stillness/self in action.
It takes a while… With effective methods, progress is noticeable. Watching illusions dissolve is one of the most fun things there is, though it can be a bit scary in the beginning: “Pleeeease, don’t take my illusions away! They are all that I think I have!”
What’s that about?
The guru is in you.
PS: Reminds me of the once well-known bumper sticker – “My karma ran over my dogma.”
Thank you, Yogani and Yoda for your response! Yes, it is truly marvellous to have a guru just a forum post away. I am very grateful and thank you deeply!
So it is not escaping the world then, to focus on meditation and only look inwards for a while? I feel I can’t handle the world (that is: my thoughts of the world) yet. Would it be okey to withdraw from others and just mind my own business until things stabilize a bit?
I do spinal breathing and meditation regularly twice a day. However, I think I am in quite a mess… According to what I read in the lessons, things are happening in a very strange order. I have experienced so much automatic yoga and lots of kundalini before I found AYP and got to read the lessons and started practices, so many of the things I read are said to happen later on in the process have already happened. I guess that’s why I flip in and out of awareness/unawareness with such extreme force. There is no stability whatsoever yet. It is hard to do things slowly from the beginning and add next step “when you feel you are ready”, when the speed is already too high and I am out on the bumpy road, and the next step happened 3 miles ago… I am not yet even in stable slow deep breathing feeling the spinal nerve clearly during pranayama and definitely not having mulabandha or sambhavi under control, still I have had orgasms and have an OM in the background of I AM during meditation from the start, rashes, and it feels I am soon able to do kechari step 2, my tounge goes back automatically.
So, I’m sorry to blurt out with posts like these… Excuse me for my emotional turmoil. I am still a newbie and it feels I cannot really harbour all the knowledge I get from cosmic glimpses and sceneries etc in this immature body and mind.
Hi EMC:
Do what you have to do to keep your life on a steady keel. No point standing in the middle of the highway during rush hour.
As for all the kundalini stuff (that’s what it is), there have been some who have arrived here in that condition. It has its pluses and minuses. The trick is to get smart about self-pacing and grounding, and embrace the process. Katrine can offer plenty of pointers on that, I’m sure.
The guru is in you.
MOI?!?! [:O]
I blame my tantric cat for the kundalini overload…
You are right - I do lots of self-pacing and grounding, but I do not embrace the process. I still fight it a little bit too often. I love Katrine’s posts… I think I should do a search in forum and see what she has written previously. Thanks for the suggestion!
Hi EMC,
I have to say from the beginning of this thread I get the gut-feeling you might need to do a little self-pacing if you are experiencing much emotional unrest in daily life. Have you considered cutting your time down in pranayama and perhaps in meditation too? Maybe start by cutting your time down by 50% until you feel more emotional stability and add things back very slowly. This helps me a great deal when I am over in my practices.
Hope you feel better soon, remember they are just emotions which are temporary, watch them, allow them and don’t worry, the roller-coaster ride will end soon!
… But I cannot seem to fight it.
), like I said, everything is perfect… so there cannot be anything right or wrong anymore… I do go through phases when I wish people around me would accept me changing… but right at this moment, I don’t think I would want to change anything… none of the minor or major irritations. Everything has a place, and whether I like it or not… it will stay there and nothing in life is constant… so why get attached to anything that will change. One thing that has helped me a lot was a statement you made in an email to me… “What you fear most will manifest, you know, according to the law of attraction”… I replaced the word “fear” with “thoughts”… I really think this is true… you are what you think you are and your world around you reflects you.
)
