Indeed! 
Maybe he will 
ā¦or maybe he wonāt. 
God alone knows with certainty. 
But time will tell, eh? 
Hari Om Tatsat Jai Guru Datta!
Doc
Hello Etherfish and Doc,
Iāve actually had many teachers. However, the best ones, to me, were the ones that encouraged independence, self-sufficiency, self-exploration, self-reflection and critical thinking. My last one even certified me to teach - although I did distant myself from his fledgling organization, simply because I donāt wish to be overly involved in it, and I have some conflicts with him regarding his interpersonal style. They never asserted that I must receive teachings, techniques and objects of meditation directly from them, or else these would be ineffective. Nor, did they insist that I even believe what they taught.
However, the worst ones did make these nonsense, egocentric, controlling assertions. And, some of them would get quite abusive if I didnāt tow the line. As a result, I kicked them to the curb after a short while - Iām too willful and independent to tolerate that rubbish for long.
Therefore, Doc, I think it was rather unwise of you to jump to conclusions about my point of view without knowing at least some of the details of my background. Iām not taking a dig at you. However, if youāre going to be that forward with me, then I will be direct with you. 
May you all be happy and achieve the highest bliss,
Nirodha
Norodha said:
In my opinion, and experience, the assertion that āthe mantra must be given by a guruā is put forth simply to promote discipleship - nothing more and nothing less.
In behavior within a tradition, itās often hard to separate individual motivations from the dictates and beliefs of the tradition itself. So Nirodha, I would go with you some of the way on this but not all the way ā I donāt believe all gurus who make that assertion do it to promote discipleship. But some of them knowingly do. Others, however, say it merely because that is what they learned and they believe it, whether true or not.
Then there is the question about how a belief like that got a hold in the tradition, and, indeed, priestcraft may well be part of the story; if someone thinks you have magical powers, they are more apt to serve you. But then on the other hand, itās not necessarily all priestcraft either, but partly quality-control. And school and knowledge preservation.
As far as I am concerned, looking at traditions like that, there is no point in trying to reduce them and their motivations to either all-good or all-bad. They are what they are. They have stuff that was always bad, stuff that was one good but now bad, and stuff that was one good and still is.
A more important question than the question of their individual motivations is āis it trueā? I donāt believe it is. In fact, I am sure that a mantra not received from a guru can be highly beneficial.
Probably most of us here (though not necessarily all) believe that. We are swinging around to realize that that is the truth. That is the changing, the evolving, of tradition.
Hi Doc,Norodha,
Well Doc we have had our differences in the past but I agree entirely with your experience with your satguru as mine are similar.There are few gurus such as you had/have but I have been blessed to find such a one also.When I met my teacher who is a disciple of guruji, she gave me the mahamritunjaya intiation by distance.On reading the words which I couldnāt pronounce at that time, my face lit up with energy and it was all tingling.Further mantras I have been given by guruji have had similar effects and have made a big difference in my practice.Even now beginning meditation and connecting to guruji makes for deeper meditation and instant kriyas just by connecting.
As far as encouraging practice,my guru simply encourages one to practice as much as possible.Once one has intiation there is no need for further talk really as talking does not advance your path, just as reading scriptures will not unless you practice.Whether one believes receiving a mantra from a guru makes a difference(and I think it needs to be a realised guru)or not, having a realised guru makes a difference.I have found no need to self pace and have never experienced cleansing or problems with shakti as some on here have and neither have my students, although I beleive inner guidance needs to be listened to on this.Just my thoughts.
L&L
Dave
I do agree that having a realized teacher can make a remarkable difference to oneās experience. My last one was; he had reached what would referred to as Nirvikalpa Samadhi and I even received shaktipat from him during a week-long meditation retreat I did with him several months back. However, receiving shaktipat from him was not any more intense than the kundalini awakenings I had experienced, as a result of my own practice, prior to finally meeting him face-to-face. And, when Iām very diligent in my practices, I can easily replicate these experiences alone.
Therefore, I still standby my assertion that itās totally unnecessary to receive a mantra, or any other object of meditation, directly from a guru in order for it to be effective - I never have. And, that the sole purpose of such an assertion is simply to promote discipleship.
Iāll let you all in on a little tip: One can easily self-initiate if one knows how. And, how does one do this? By using oneās object of meditation to reach samadhi (meditative absorption) as often as possible.
May you all be happy and achieve the highest bliss,
Nirodha
Hi Niroda,
Yes it is unnecessary to receive a mantra from a realised guru to get results, millions of TM followers can attest to that.But to get from a realised guru will give greater results.Following AYP will give greater results than TM.
I donāt know what your experiences of shaktipat were but I have never repeated mine in practices and do try to do so would be counter productive, as you know experiences are simply that and no sign of levels.
Self intiate?You mean you are going to intiate yourself(connect)to any guruās energies by self will?
Iāll give you a tip. Anyone can self intiate to Reiki simply by being open but it still doesnāt teach you how to use the energies to maximum results.
L&L
Dave
Hi Dave,
My experience of receiving shaktipat was pretty much identical to that of any of the kundalini experiences Iāve had - thatās why I didnāt see the need to attach some special significance to my teacher and, therefore, elevate his status to mythic proportions. It just intense energy flowing around and through me, kriyas (automatic movements), intense bliss and pleasure, etcā¦ However, I donāt find repeating these experiences to be counter-productive - quite the opposite really. Every time Iāve done so Iāve found that another layer of hindrances has been melted away.
By self-initiate, I was referring to initiating oneās self into a particular practice or object of meditation. Iāve often heard it asserted that one can only enter a certain practice, be it yantra, mantra, or whatever, through the grace of the guru. Well, entering yantra, mantra, or whatever, simply refers to being able to attain samadhi while using these objects. Once one is able to do so, then, in essence, one has successfully entered the object(s) and intitiated oneās self into it.
As a bit of a footnote, I happen to come from a predominately Theravada Buddhism background - although, I never strictly adhered to it, and have studied in a number of other traditions, Buddhist and non-Buddhist, as well. And, in this partcular tradition, the guru is, generally, not given much special significance other then that of a learned friend. However, striving for oneās self is given great emphasis. Theravadaās ethos could be summed up as follows: āWe, the Buddhas, merely point the way. You must do the work of liberating yourself.ā
May you all be happy and achieve the highest bliss,
Nirodha
Hi Cessation
ā¦or striving for oneās non-self 
Be a lamp unto yourself
Mike
Even ordinary things of the world canāt be learnt without a teacher,
So Kabir says how will the mind find God without a Guru.
A Guru is a great help and guide on the spiritual path. Mantras can be chanted on oneās own but it will not have the same powerful effect as when given by a self realized saint. A master enlivens a mantra with his spiritual energy making it āchaitanyaā- alive. I have read great self-realized masters like Raman Maharshi, Swami Rama, Swami Chinmaya, Vivekananda and my own revered Gurudeva say that a mantra given by a self-realized master is like a wire connected to a live power source; even if the wire is thin it will bring electricity to your house. On the contrary no matter how thick a wire is, if it is not connected to a powerhouse it is useless.
The trouble with todayās Kaliyuga is that lots of people who are incompetent have become gurus; diminishing the sanctity of the guru-disciple tradition which has been there from ancient times. Just because some gurus are incompetent does not mean that the guru tradition itself is invalid. Vande Krishnam Jagat Guru - God was the first Guru to humanity.
Namaskars Shailesh,
I completey agree with your post and this is my experience also.
L&L
Dave
I agree too, but how do we cover the world population of 6.5 billion people (and growing) with the venerable old guru system? It is, frankly, a bit petrified, and not yet living in the information age.
All that is good in the guru system, we need much more of that for everyone.
Clearly, something has to change.
The guru is in you. <ā more direct access to that One will help.
Namaskars Yogani,
I agree with you also but 20 yrs ago we would not be conversing at all,and the information you are giving out would not be available.The point is there is room for the old and new and something to be learnt from both.Neither way is completely correct or incorrect.The new ways (with the help of technology) will spread the knowledge further and the old ways hopefully will restore some values to modern life.After all the traditional ways of respect and tolerance of ALL cultures is much needed in the world today.This is one of the most important teachings that Yoga promotes imho.
L&L
Dave
Hi Dave:
Agreed absolutely. And each ought to keep prodding the other.
I am not anti-guru. I am pro-progress.
As the old saying goes: āLead, follow, or get out of the way!ā
For a bit of perspective, here is some history in an AYP lesson that discusses the progression of the eastern traditions coming west over more than a century, leading directly to the wonderful knowledge we are blessed to be sharing and utilizing today. So, there is no question that we are standing on the shoulders of giants ā and thousands of years of glorious spiritual discovery. That should never be forgotten.
On the other hand, we have to be honest and say to the traditions: āWhat have you been doing lately?ā
Just as the traditions might say to upstarts like AYP: āBetter not ignore all this experience.ā
We are doing the best we can, yes? 
The guru is in you.
Hi all,
Iām not anti-guru either - Iāve had some rather good ones. However, I am anti-slavery - which is frequently promoted and disguised by nonsense assertions and devotional attitudes that do nothing more than mentally enslave the naive. This was the entire point of my postings on this thread.
Iād like to share something, from the Discourses of the Buddha, that I feel is very appropriate:
The criterion for rejection
āIt is proper for you, Kalamas [a particular tribal group in India], to doubt, to be uncertain; uncertainty has arisen in you about what is doubtful. Come, Kalamas. Do not go upon what has been acquired by repeated hearing; nor upon tradition; nor upon rumor; nor upon what is in a scripture; nor upon surmise; nor upon an axiom; nor upon specious reasoning; nor upon a bias toward a notion that has been pondered over; nor upon anotherās seeming ability; nor upon the consideration, āThe monk is our teacher.ā Kalamas, when you yourselves know: āThese things are bad; these things are blamable; these things are censured by the wise; undertaken and observed, these things lead to harm and ill,ā abandon them.ā
The criterion for acceptance
āCome, Kalamas. Do not go upon what has been acquired by repeated hearing; nor upon tradition; nor upon rumor; nor upon what is in a scripture; nor upon surmise; nor upon an axiom; nor upon specious reasoning; nor upon a bias toward a notion that has been pondered over; nor upon anotherās seeming ability; nor upon the consideration, āThe monk is our teacher.ā Kalamas, when you yourselves know: āThese things are good; these things are not blamable; these things are praised by the wise; undertaken and observed, these things lead to benefit and happiness,ā enter on and abide in them.ā
Excerpted from the Kalama Sutta (AN 3.65)- The Instruction to the Kalamas
May you all be happy and achieve the highest bliss,
Nirodha
Hi All:
Since I put my toe in here yesterday, maybe it would be good to go back and answer the original question.
āMust a mantra be given only by a guru?ā
Well, based on the experiences of many, obviously not, but there may be an initial energy advantage in receiving guru initiation ā at least in the old days there was, when little else was available. It is changing, and the playing field is gradually becoming more level between ātransmittedā mantras versus āsharedā mantras (see below).
Once a guru initiation is done, it is up to the practitioner. The initial boost and lingering energy connection are a plus. But in the long run it is the aspirantās dedication to daily practice and the effectiveness of the method that will make the difference. It is always about the aspirant. It isnāt about the guru. A true guru will be the first to say that, constantly reminding the aspirant to stay on task with the methods that lead to āself-realization.ā The goal is not āguru-realization.ā
There is a potential disadvantage to guru initiation that should not be ignored. That is the association with a fixed tradition, with fixed (locked in) methods, and little room for experimentation and discovery of improvements in practice. It has been the job of the traditions to preserve knowledge down through the centuries. And so they have, much to their credit. The problem is that no single tradition has been preserving the total knowledge of human spiritual transformation. There is a noticeable fragmentation of yogic knowledge spread around among the many traditions from which most of our gurus have come.
Tradition āAā is mainly meditation and samyama. Tradition āBā is mainly pranayama and hatha. Tradition āCā is mainly asanas. Tradition āDā is mainly non-dual inquiry. Tradition āEā is mainly bhakti. And it goes on and on. The walls between these highly-focused conservative approaches are quite high. So, when we receive the advantage of guru initiation, we also may find ourselves with the disadvantage of limited opportunity for exposure to all of the methods of yoga in a balanced way. This is especially true when vows of secrecy and loyalty are taken. It can be very limiting.
In the old days, this sort of guru/disciple exclusivity may have made perfect sense, but in the information age it is out of date, at least in the applied science oriented mass markets of the west. We all know of the abuses that have occurred with the guru system being applied in modern times. It is systemic, meaning there is a fundamental incompatibility between the method and the time in which it is being used.
So, change is in the air. It is happening (slooowly) within the traditions. And we also have upstarts moving in quickly to fill the void. AYP is one of many attempts to make spiritual knowledge transmission more open and effective in modern times, while reducing the risk of abuse that has been found lurking in the guru system. It is a shift to the methods of applied science and communications/distribution that take advantage of modern technology. It makes sense ā each generation is entitled to view applied knowledge through its own spyglass, and then to do its best to pass on all that is known to the next generation to look at through their spyglass, and so onā¦
As shailesh kumar said, we have to learn from someone. While the human nervous system in each of us is the source of all yogic knowledge, we still can benefit greatly from the accumulated knowledge that humanity has assembled on utilizing the mechanisms of spiritual transformation residing in each of us. We should continue to build on what is known, and pass it on as efficiently as possible.
But back to the original question ā¦ if we are learning our mantra through a modern non-guru information system, is something lost? There is that magical energy connection that a guru can give us. What is it? And can we receive it by other means? This is the crux of the question.
There will always be bonafide living gurus, and we are blessed to have them. The energy and knowledge they share help us greatly to uplift ourselves, according to our own spiritual desire (bhakti). It can occur through a variety of means ā mantras, shaktipat, healings, behind the scenes sharing, etc. It is spiritual energy, and it flows in many ways to those who actively surrender to their highest ideal. There is a lot of energy flowing these days, and gurus are no longer the only source of it. They may not even be the primary source of it anymore. Though, still, a real guru who does not tie up his or her followers is a real treasure.
World consciousness is rising rapidly, and more and more spiritual energy is being transmitted through our collective opening. This is a major acceleration in human evolution that is occurring before our eyes. Knowledge that is transmitted through collective means may well someday meet or exceed what the single great guru can provide. Time will tell. The important thing to know is that it is happening, and it will continue to grow. So all is not lost anymore if the guru is not found in an individual person. It can also be found in forward-looking communities, and, most importantly, in ourselves.
See lesson 146 for a discussion on the expansion of energy transmission capability from the individual guru to occurring throughout the society as a whole: http://www.aypsite.org/146.html
Regarding mantra, there is the inherent vibration that is contained within the sound itself, which will provide for effective and balanced purification and opening in the nervous system, if used correctly in deep meditation. This has little to do with how the mantra is transmitted. There are thousands of mantras, and the discussion can be endless on this. In AYP, the selection of mantra and enhancements is based on a particular rationale, and the known causes and effects involved in using the syllables that make up the mantra.
Here are a few lessons that discuss the AYP mantra strategy:
Mantra Particulars: http://www.aypsite.org/59.html
Mantra Design 101: http://www.aypsite.org/188.html
Also see other lessons under āmantraā in the topic index: http://www.aypsite.org/TopicIndex.html
In the end, the proof of the pudding will be in the eating. So eat!
All the best!
The guru is in you.
Really nice post Yogani - just relaxing to readā¦ you need to add a word to the yogic terminology relating to the reception of good vibes from reading a really great www post
The questioning/logical part of my mind thoā was curious as to why you feel/believe that āspritual energy is increasingā [to be clear I personally have no idea of whether its up down or sideways 
].
At a logical level one notes that there have always been folks saying that everything is going to the bad, things arent what they used to be etc.
But there have also been folks (esp. at the spiritual end) who say we are on a cusp of a major change.
Historically of course both have been proved literally wrongā¦ progress is neither a straight line up or down.
Anyway just to emphasise not drilling you on this one - if its your belief thats cool - its more, not having a view of my own, I was wondering on what basis one even starts to formulate a view (apart from oneās personal position on the pessimism-optimism spectrum).
peace & respect
Mike
Hi Mike:
To me it is about cause and effect.
It is an observable evolution (or revolution) of access to knowledge on the means of human spiritual transformation (practices). It began filtering over to the west over a century ago, and has been accelerating ever since. In the process, the knowledge is being revitalized in ways that have not happened in India and other parts of Asia, due to the conservative nature of the traditions there.
Millions more people are meditating around the world every year, so there are more results, more inner purification, and more energy flowing. Each individual can gauge it by their own inner openings. Take that and keep reproducing it across the worldās population, and we have something remarkable going on.
It is about the numbers of people gaining access, which is why AYP is what it is ā an attempt to expand access to effective practices as much as possible. The more who are opening, the easier it is for others to open, and so on. That is the energy dynamic we can see occurring everywhere.
From an applied knowledge point of view, it is not unprecedented. It has happened in many fields. Faraday was playing around with the invisible forces of static electricity and magnets (spooky stuff in those days), and 150 years later we have electricity available for practical use everywhere, and nearly everyone has a cell phone in their pocket. The application of spiritual knowledge is traveling a similar route.
For those who have been engaged in spiritual practices for the past 30-40 years, the change in the life experience has been pretty dramatic, not only individually, but in the rising receptivity in people everywhere. There has been a lot of change. As Dave pointed out earlier, we are sharing and applying knowledge now that we could barely imagine only a few decades ago. What will it be like 20 years from now? 50 years from now? Weāll seeā¦
Looking at it as a practical refinement and worldwide distribution of knowledge puts it within a framework we can easily understand. This is what we have seen already in many other fields of knowledge. In yoga, we should keep going and see where it leads. The least we can do is make sure that everyone everywhere has access to useful knowledge on practices. Then it is up to them. Based on what we have seen going on so far, the prospects are pretty exciting. That is how I see it.
The guru is in you.
Thank you for sharing those thoughts Yogani ā¦ as you say a lot has changed from when we were young.
Mike
ps when youāve finished off the open-source Yoga project any chance of doing the same for Taoism ā¦ I have always been frustrated with the difficulty of getting access to information about true deep Taoist methods that is 1% as good as the AYP project is re Yoga ā¦
pps or maybe you should have done Taoism first, picked up the Immortality then plenty of time for Yogic enlightement and the rest (open-source Sufi methods next? )
ppps [/dream-mode] 
Hi All
Yogani wrote:
Yes. The limits themselves obstruct the natural flow towards contact with the inner guru. That is why i love the simplicity of deep meditation. It is still a method, thoughā¦and any method is pr definition ādualā. But: Deep meditation is the most methodless approach I know of. Much less method, even, than that of non-dual inquiry (which cannot be ādoneā without first being connected to ones own depth).
My experience is (and I never had a āliveā initiation from any guru) that the almost 20 years of meditation , prior to the rise of Kundalini in the sushumna, is what made it possible for me to āsurviveā so long on my own. As awareness increases, life brings me multiple āgurusā (in the form of people, situations, crisis, sickness, booksā¦anything really) - and whether I learn from them or not, always depend on me. Not on them. Their gift is the fact that they happen. The rest is up to me. It always works that way. I am seldom infatuated with the messenger. It is the message that attracts.* And there are so many precious messages already. They fit perfectly with different inner states. There are so many ways of saying ultimately the same thing, it is needed to be this wayā¦so that many can receive. This forum, for one, is already spilling over with it. The participation that takes place hereā¦is creating a fieldā¦much stronger than earlier seen. It is becoming almost impossible not to be touched by it.
I am absolutely positive that it will. It is already happening. What is transmitted, after all, is a unanimous presence - ever expanding.
We are lucky to be here
PS
- Ohā¦reading throughā¦I saw this sentence. This coincides with what is actually happening in front of me right now. I will explain in another post elsewhere. I have been blindā¦the message is the messenger.
Here: http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2417
Good post, Katrine, and thatās how I look at it, as I have never followed a āguruā either or practiced a mantra for my Kundalini to awake, as it happened spontaneously. Although, in retrospect, and from comparison to subsequent experience/phenomenon, there was a definite connection to planetary proximity, as I later investigated and found that my Kundalini awoke when Mars was in opposition and closest to earth at the end of August, 2003. Actually, it was the closest that it has been for over sixty thousand years, give or take a millenium, LOL; and the last time the planet was that close to earth was during the Neanderthal Age. So, Iām hoping that once my transformation is complete I can, at the very least, nab a spot on the next Geico commercial: Anyway, thatās why Iām interested in planetary cycles, since there is a definite correlation/affect on the body/spirit:
VIL