Mantra refinement

06. Discussions on AYP Deep Meditation and Samyama
21

Hi Christi,
Hi all,
So here’s the deal: I don’t think I can do any Deep Meditation without overloading. I always end up in some form or another of overload. Despite knowing that it has delayed effects, that less is more, that I should be waiting till I know what I’m doing before adding another practice, I can’t seem to stabilize it.
I’m currently taking 4 weeks off any spiritual practices, the longest I’ve taken since I first started practicing a couple years ago.
I will follow the course of action you have suggested, and will start again with Breath Meditation after my break, and only 5 minutes at a time (twice a day). If stable over several weeks, I will add another 5 mns, and so on, till I reach 20 mns. This might take several months, but it’ll take the time that it’ll take.
In terms of ecstatic conductivity, I experience some in my feet and legs as I am writing this. Mostly in the feet, though. It started again this morning. It comes and goes and I’m not exactly sure what triggers it. Last time it happened was last Sunday. I think it may be related to the retention of prana through the preservation of my sexual energies, which I have not been able to stabilize yet. What I mean is that there are times where I ejaculate more often.
In terms of being aware of my breath through the day, this awareness comes and goes too. Some days I’ll be aware of it a LOT, and some other days not that much. I wonder why.
I can’t help but think of this post from Yogani (Lesson 367 - Suggestions for Over-Sensitive Meditators):

I feel like this would be a gentler, better path for me.
Cheers,
Quentin

22

Hi Quentin,
That sounds like a good plan. Always be ready to step back as needed.
Also, do be aware that even if you cut back sitting practices on the mat to zero, there can still be things happening that are actually spiritual practices and can increase the flow of prana in the body, and therefor the levels of inner purification happening. Retention of sexual fluids and energy is one of these practices (for both men and women). Breath awareness during the day is another. Being aware of subtle energy moving in the body is another, as is contemplating the Divine, or even watching spiritual videos or reading spiritual books. So, for someone who is very sensitive, there can be many things to keep an eye on. This is not to say that anyone should become paranoid, but if you notice yourself not becoming stable after a few weeks, these could be some of the things to consider.
:pray:

23

Hi Christi,
I have a question concerning the sound of the mantra: For me, the mantra is just a thought of the word. But, there is some choice to either focus on the thought or on the sound. Should we focus on the sound of the mantra?
Furthermore, I find it hard to distinguish between a fuzzy mantra or the mind becoming dull or unfocused. Do you have some advice?

24

Hi Mats,
Yes, focus on the sound of the mantra. It is the sound that carries the vibrational quality that purifies the subtle nervous system. As this sound refines and becomes more faint and fuzzy, it can refine to the level of being a mere “impulse” rather than an obvious sound. But, if this does happen, it will be happening automatically as you are going deep into inner silence. If the thought comes up in the mind “At what level should I be favouring the mantra?” then you would easily favour the mantra at whatever level it is at in the mind, over that thought.
With the mind becoming dull, or unfocused, this can happen and is actually caused by the purification process taking place. Simply bring your attention back to the mantra, at whatever level it is at in the mind, whenever you realise you are off it. Again, if you find yourself thinking “Is the mantra fuzzy, or is it just that my mind is dull and unfocused?”, then you would favour the mantra at whatever level it is at in the mind, over that thought.

25

Thanks, Christi!
So basically, you are repeating the mantra in your mind while listening to it. Listening to the sound of the mantra. Correct?

26

Hi Mats,
Yes, that is correct.

27

Hi Christi, hi all,
Here’s a little update: I still haven’t been able to find any sort of stability, at all.
I’ve decided to stop everything again for the time being. I have overloaded energetically, I believe. Since I’ve stopped, I can’t stop frowning as I go into my day. When I attempt to stop the frowning, I’m immediately overwhelmed with energetic discomfort and overwhelming thoughts.
I’m wondering if this is some kind of third eye purification happening.
It sometimes moves upwards from the point between the eyebrows and makes my eyebrows raise. And it even sometimes moves to the sides of my head, near the top/back of the ears. I’m wondering if this is related to the crown chakra, or other energetic pathways being cleared up.
Could spinal breathing help? or deep meditation? But if this is an overload (or purification? – I’m confused) symptom due to those practices, wouldn’t they amplify the problem? I thought that energetic overload could be lessened by the rise of inner silence cultivated through deep meditation. But I’ve tried so many ways to meditate over the last 10 months and haven’t found much stability. Whenever I think I’ve got it finally, there comes something which makes me doubt and I’m back to square one.
At the same time, my body must be in the process of relaxing, because I’ve been stretching naturally quite a few times today!
But the tension in between my eyebrows is seriously worrying me. But it’s the only thing which seems to keep me grounded.
Sometimes I actually wonder if i’m unconsciously favoring it rather than allowing something to happen, and I wonder if it’s ever going to stop.
I’m scared that this is actually going to worsen the energetic overload, and this fear compells me to attempt more spiritual practices.
Any guidance much appreciated.

28

Hi qspadone,
Sorry to hear you are still having difficulties. Your symptoms do sound like some of those associated with the ajna chakra purifying and opening and also possibly with the crown chakra as well. Energetic overload is the same as purification, except that the symptoms of energetic overload are uncomfortable and/ or painful. With the purification of the ajna chakra, frowning is one response of the body to strong purification taking place. Stretching the body can help with overload symptoms if done in the right way. If you do it in the right way, you will feel the stretching reducing any pain, rather than increasing it.
It is not the case that symptoms of energetic overload are lessened by the rise of inner silence. In fact, it is often the opposite. Inner silence can cause prana to rise up in the body to meet it, which can increase symptoms of energetic overload if the subtle nervous system is not ready for that. This is why increasing meditation time is not a recommended response to experiencing energetic overload.
With Spinal Breathing Pranayama, it is different as Spinal Breathing can have a balancing effect on the subtle body, balancing prana out between the higher and lower centres. So, sometimes people can find some relief by adding Spinal Breathing to their practice if they are not using it already. However, this does not always work, so if someone were to try this, they should be ready to cut back on all practices if necessary.
My advice to anyone experiencing energetic overload is to reduce spiritual practices downwards. Start by cutting out the last practice you added. If this does not resolve the issue, then cut out the one before that and so on until you find a comfortable level. In your case, stopping all practices for a while sounds wise. Remember that all practices includes things like reading spiritual books, watching spiritually uplifting videos or films, and stopping any tantric sexual practices.
Inner purification does not last forever, which means that symptoms of energetic overload also do not last forever. Generally, the better-able someone is to self-pace their practices effectively and the better they are at introducing grounding practices into their life, the sooner they recover.
This lesson contains instructions on self-pacing and grounding.
This video that I recorded for YouTube also contains those same instructions.
And this video talks more about what can happen if the crown chakra is opening too early.
Lastly, there is a free Self-Pacing and Grounding flowchart which can be downloaded as a PDF that you may find useful here. If you follow the instructions there, you should be fine.

29

To be honest, I simply cannot stop meditating. Stopping entirely seems to bring about more troubles than when I keep at it, even though I’m still constantly changing my interpretations of the instructions.
Here’s a breakdown of the various ways I am currently experimenting with my DM practice. Maybe this’ll help me figure out which method is the right one.

  1. Actively saying the mantra within, really focusing on each sound and syllable as I say it. Usually, I end up getting stuck on the “M” at the end of “AYAM”, and just go on saying the “M” internally. It seems faint and fuzzy, which is why I’m thinking this could be it. I’m often wondering if I’m intentionally keeping it stuck on the “M” sound. What makes me think this could be the right way is that afterwards during activity I tend to be way more aware of my breath (alghough rapid and shallow a lot of the time). That being said, I’ve had some real panick moments in activity following these types of meditation.
  2. Sort of similar to the first one, except a bit more passive. I aim to break down and “listen” to each sound the mantra is made of. This one is by far the one I’m the most skeptic about. I don’t think this makes much sense.
  3. Starting the mantra within, letting it go how it will. The mantra does not necessarily become less distinct, although it does a little. With this, the mantra sort of “cycles” and “loops”, and it feels as if it penetrates my body, and I can feel vibrations in some places (usually the lower legs or hands). It sometimes syncs with my heartbeat, sometimes with my breath. When this happens, I just favour the mantra (which is basically running on a “loop”). I favour it gently. I sometimes loss consciousness completely. When I realize I have, I go back to it. And so on. These meditations usually lead to what I believe could be ecstatic conductivity in daily activity: in the arms, legs, chest, … but not necessarily. I’ve actually experienced real moments of bliss after these meditations.
  4. Same as above, except I kind of favor it slightly more forcefully, as soon as I realize I have lost it. I did this for a number of weeks (with the third mantra enhancement) and although I have good results in the beginning, the experiences I was having during deep meditation were just too much (breath retentions through the whole session, automatic yoga positions, …), and it led to a number of issues related to emotional outbursts during activity.
    I believe 3 is the right way to do it.
    Cheers
30

Hi qspadone,
Yes, number three is correct. If you ever find yourself analysing your meditation procedure during meditation, then easily favour the mantra again over any analysis that is happening.
Also, be careful not to judge the effectiveness of the meditation by experiences that arise due to the meditation. These can be anything, depending on the inner obstructions that are being cleared, and so are not a measure of the effectiveness of the meditation practice.

31

Hi Christi,
You wrote this a while ago:

What is meant by vibration, exactly?

32

oh, I feel this so much…the ability to cannot stop the meditation even it would be wise.
I was in this place…but somehow since a view weeks I am stable. I think, you will find this place tooo.

33

Hi qspadone,
A vibration is something that vibrates. So, it could be a sound, as all sounds vibrate, but it could also simply be a sensation that makes no sound. It is like this with the mantra. At first it can be a sound that is heard in the mind, but it can refine to the level where it is simply felt as a vibration. So, that is a “sound vibration” which is either simply heard, or both heard and felt simultaneously, or simply felt.

34

Wow, thanks! That’s helpful indeed.
These days I tend to gently favor the vibration from the very start of my sessions and follow it wherever it takes me.
I honestly don’t remember how or when I first started feeling this vibration.
My question is:

  • Do all mantras lead to the same refined vibration in the body, when they become simply felt as such?
    I’m asking this because, sometimes I wonder if this vibration is actually the AYAM vibration, but every time I start off with a heard version of the mantra within, it does not takes me as deep as when I start with the vibration. So, it’s as if I don’t have a choice and I have to pick up the vibration rather than a clearer, heard mantra.
35

Hi qspadone,
It is recommended to begin meditation with the thought of the sound of the mantra. It does not have to be a clear pronunciation, as long as we know that it is the mantra at a natural level in us. As we advance in our practice, the start of meditation with the mantra could be experienced as a vibration. That is ok if it is naturally what happens as we pick up the thought of the sound of the mantra. Later still, and becoming more advanced, as soon as we sit to meditate and close our eyes, we will be gone into pure bliss consciousness, beyond the thought of the sound of the mantra, and beyond vibration as well. Just pure bliss consciousness. It is an indication of the witness becoming perpetually present in us.
We start meditation with the mantra, and where it goes from there will depend on the condition and acclimation of the mantra in our mind and nervous system. And when we notice we are off it, we come back to where we were with it, clear or faint and fuzzy, or a vibration, or in a faint feeling on the edge of pure bliss consciousness, and gone again.
So it is a process that evolves, going to finer and finer levels in the mind and body. We start from where we are with the mantra when we sit, and go back to where we were when we notice (have the thought) that we are not on the mantra. In this way our attention continues to be involved in the process of noticing when off the mantra, coming back to it at the level where we wandered off, and taking us deeper and deeper. Obviously, we cannot start from a level of the mantra where we are not. If it is a thought of pronunciation in the mind, clear or fuzzy, that is where we start. If it is a faint feeling/vibration, we can start there. If it is pure bliss consciousness, we can start there. In each case the start will be mostly automatic, because the mind and body are acclimated to that level of the mantra, or completely beyond it in the case of pure bliss consciousness. But, no matter where we are, when the “off the mantra” thought comes, that is when we go back to the mantra at whatever level we find it, even very faint (beyond vibration) on the edge of absolute stillness. That way we will always be going to more refined levels of consciousness, and cultivating that into our daily life.
The procedure applies even to those who go straight to the bliss of samadhi (no mantra - no thoughts). In the past someone advocated to stay and bask in that state of stillness rather than go back to the mantra. But that is a choice in the mind, and the “basking” will also be in the mind. That is not correct meditation. We always come back to the vehicle of our transcendence, the mantra, at whatever level it is in the mind. Likewise, resting in a vibration, holding on to the experience (or any experience) without letting it refine, would not be correct meditation. So it is good to be mindful that we are always taking the attention to less, beyond whatever the perceived experience is in any given moment during practice - clear or fuzzy pronunciation in the mind, subtle feeling or vibration, or even pure bliss consciousness. As soon as we recognize any particular state, it isn’t really that state - it is the mind telling us it is time to go back to the mantra at whatever level we left it.
So, is a vibration perceived to be the mantra an acceptable place to start our meditation? Yes, if it is the natural manifestation of the mantra in our mind. Neither is there any harm in picking up the mantra at the start in a way we will recognize it, however that may be for us. Then it refines naturally from there, and we let it…
The guru is in you. :pray:
PS: And here is what the AI drawing on all of AYP Plus has to say. This time the AI was less wordy than me. :grin:
Q: Is it ok to pick up the mantra as a vibration at the start of meditation?
A: It can be ok to pick up the mantra as a subtle vibration at the start of meditation.
Over time, the mantra will become more refined, and it will be common to experience it as a faint vibration beyond pronunciation. If you are able to pick up the mantra as a faint vibration in the depths of stillness, it is ok to start your meditation there. If you are unsure whether the faint vibration is the mantra, it is ok to come up just far enough to confirm it is the mantra. With more practice, this will become unnecessary as you become more familiar with your inner silence.
It is important to note that you should not force this to happen. You can begin your meditation with a clear pronunciation of the mantra, and if it naturally refines to the level of a subtle vibration, you can continue your meditation from there.

36

Hi All,
To offer further clarification on the various stages of mantra refinement, and how to proceed at each stage during practice, I put a more detailed question to the AI, drawing on the full content of AYP Plus. The answer is much the same as my post above, but perhaps a bit more organized. :slight_smile:
Q: When meditating, what is the difference between mantra with clear pronunciation, faint feeling or vibration of mantra, and gone to a bliss state with no mantra at all? In each case, where do I pick the mantra back up again during practice?
A: When meditating, it is normal for the mantra to change during a session or over a series of sessions. The mantra is simply a vehicle that dissolves into pure bliss consciousness within. It can be experienced as:

  • Clear Pronunciation - In the beginning of meditation practice, it’s normal to be inclined to hold a clear pronunciation of the mantra, and to keep a fixed pattern of repetition going. The mantra will likely be at a clear pronunciation when starting a session.
  • Faint Feeling or Vibration - As one progresses, the mantra may become very refined and fuzzy, even disappearing into stillness. This is normal, and it’s okay to think of the mantra in a very refined and fuzzy way if that is easiest. At subtle levels in the mind, the mantra is a faint feeling or vibration, far beyond “hearing” or any other clear thought.
  • Gone to a Bliss State With No Mantra - Sometimes, it is possible to lose track of where one is for a while, having no mantra or stream of thoughts. This experience can leave one with a feeling of pleasantness, lightness, or euphoria. This is inner silence, or pure bliss consciousness.
    No matter what level of clarity or fuzziness the mantra is at, it’s important to remember that the goal of meditation is to easily go back to the mantra when you realize you are off it. Each time you realize you’ve been off the mantra, this is a dip into inner silence, whether you noticed it or not.
    When you realize you are off the mantra, ease back to it at whatever level of clarity or fuzziness you left off. If you are deep in meditation and the mantra is faint, there is no need to go back to a clear pronunciation of the mantra. Simply come back to the faint version. If you come out into a clear thought stream, pick up the mantra clearly at that level and let it refine again. Always favor the most comfortable level of the mantra. Do not force the mantra. It is this simple procedure of easily favoring the mantra that cultivates inner silence.
37

I’m impressed how close to the source the results are, good in good out!

38

For me, currently, the mental sound of the mantra has refined to be very distant and very fuzzy, mostly located in my abdomen/chest and aligned with the heartbeat, as well as accompanied by vibrations felt in the body.
Is it OK if the mantra spontaneously becomes synchronized with the heartbeat?

Edit: I figured I’d ask ChatGPT:
A: When the mantra aligns with the heartbeat, it is important to remember that this is an incidental phenomenon and not the focus of meditation. The mantra should remain independent of physical rhythms, but if it synchronizes spontaneously, it’s fine to let it be without intentional alignment.
Over time, as purification progresses, these alignments often dissolve or become less prominent.
What do y’all think?

39

Hi qspadone,
Yes, ChatGPT has got it right there. If you notice that the mantra is synchronising with the breath, or with the heartbeat, or with any of the other natural rhythms of the body, then there is no need to deliberately stop the synchronisation, or to deliberately maintain the synchronisation. All you do is to easily favour the mantra with your attention over noticing that it is synchronised with something.

40

Hi All,
Yes, a good answer from ChatGPT in that case. However, when using a general AI drawing on the broad internet, answers could come back from non-AYP sources with a mixed result, leading to confusion. To avoid that, simply begin your question with “In AYP Yoga…” Then the answer that comes back will be based on the public AYP content, which is extensive as we know. It will not be coming from the AYP Plus content though, which has more than twice what is publicly available.
Currently, running AI on AYP Plus is only available through NotebookLM for single users, with answers from there occasionally being added to supplement my forum responses. The goal is to add an AI assistant to AYP Plus when technically feasible. Hoping that can happen this year.
The idea is that AI accurately representing the AYP knowledge will last much longer than me, or any of us, and will be a valuable long term support resource in the AYP tool kit. The experiments applying AI to the AYP writings have been impressive in accuracy. So far we have not seen AI making anything up about AYP, and that’s a good thing. :slight_smile:
All the best!
The guru is in you. :pray: