Hi Yaming:
Yes it is off the procedure. Sorry, I cannot predict the long term result of that sort of practice. From the AYP perspective, it is an experimental modification, as discussed in Lesson 384, unless you have verification from a reliable source on the long term effectiveness of the practice.
I can tell you that the sensation of whether we are “deep” or not during a sitting has no bearing on the effectiveness of AYP deep meditation. The experience will vary depending on the inner purification that is occurring. We can only know if our meditation is effective in how we feel in daily activity between our meditation sessions. Meditations full of thoughts produce results just as well as subjectively deep meditations. It is consistent application of the procedure that produces the results, not the subjective experience during meditation.
Modifying the procedure of meditation to achieve a particular experience during meditation is likely to water down the results, and can lead to more tinkering and more watering down. That is what happens when we try to calibrate our practice to achieve a particular experience during meditation. The inner dynamic of purification will be constantly changing. If we are unable to allow that, then our practice will likely be changing in search of that “deep” experience, and our experience in daily activity may not be improving as much as we would like.
It is your call, of course. Wishing you all the best in your practice, whatever it may be. Enjoy!
The guru is in you.
PS: For the finer points of AYP deep meditation procedure, see Lesson 366.
thanks Yogani. Well, back to the normal procedure then. 
I can relate to your sleepy symbol ( ) very well
I too thought I’ll become enlightened in a week when I heard this new procedure 
The mind keeps looking for shortcuts. Again, whether your meditation is surfacey or deep, it doesnt matter. So dont think much about it. Dont judge your meditation session on that
oh that is the sleepy face. lol I always looked at it as a happy face. I know I should judge it from my daily experience… but nothing is happening. I know I’m not very long on AYP but I caaaaan’t wait!! lol
Well well at least my impatience brings me 2 daily to my meditation seat.
Hm. This is quite reassuring and at least for me it comes as a good reminder. After 5 years of practice I still have a very busy mind during most meditation sessions, but my life is continuously more joyful and it’s easier to “stay home” during stressful events and emotional outbursts. Easier to stay as the “background” instead of being drawn into the play of appearances. I have somehow learned to ignore the busy mind during sessions and I have lost the longing for “deep” sessions. A greater acceptance of what is. When I do have a deeper session, it works mostly like Katrine explains - a slower tempo of repeating the mantra and it naturally just fades away inwards… So both is ok as it happens here. 
Thanks, Yogani and Katrine, for creating an opportunity for reflection on procedures.
Interesting discussion. This is the simple way that I think about it that may help with understanding the difference. In DM, we are digging an increasingly deeper cave of silence. With the “mindless” repeating of the mantra we are learning to “listen”. As our listening grows, the mind quiets and we find the gap. Making (or digging) the cave deeper. When you let the mantra drift and consciously restart it, you are no longer “listening” and bring the energy of focused intent to the cave. It becomes kind of like,as you dig the cave, you are also filling it back up with energy as you go.
Hi Tootsies,
Welcome to the forum and thanks for the feedback!
A
Katrine and Yogani: thank you so much for that articulate and detailed conversation. This forum is tremendously helpful and your dedication to keeping everything clear is inspiring.
Let the light shine!
Hi guys,
After this discussion I’m not sure I’m doing the right technique. Sorry about repeating the same question, but I just want to make sure I’m on the path…
Does the mantra have to be repeated continuously, in a mechanic fashion like: ayam, ayam, ayam, etc., until it refines and fade away?..and when lost start doing the same thing in the same relaxed, mechanical way: ayam, ayam, etc., or I just have to mentally pronounce it in an easy way, relaxed, maby wait for some moments and when comfortable give another impulse: ayam…wandering around…ayam…etc…
Thank you
I have smile reading that
Suggest you do a few minutes of spinal breathing pranayama before starting DM. It helps to settle things down and gives a degree of calm which allows you to pick up the mantra in a more natural way.
It really doesn’t matter how you pick the mantra up, it refines when it refines. Anytime you find you are wondering if you are doing things correctly during DM, just pick up the Mantra again.
Sometimes there are days when it seems hard, the mantra feels like it’s being hammered out and other times when everything is gentle. The mantra can be slow or fast, however it happens.
It’s a bit like eating a meal, it happens automatically, sometimes you nibble, sometimes chew and sometimes bolt the food down. It just happens as it happens, naturally, no right on wrong to it. When you realise you are no longer chewing, then go back to chewing. Sometimes you stop for long periods and forget all about the food or the eating, just somewhere else and then just gently notice the chewing again.
Thank you Karl
Thank you Katrine for your descriptions.
I have been meditating for quite some time, and your explanation of our core in expression - “the presence” seems to be a better expression than “Truth in action”, and is an excellent description of what I have previously heard of as “being Total”.
Your method of easing into silence seems to be an interesting reflection on Patanjali’s samyama, and it mirrors very similar practices in Zen, Buddhism, and Saivism.
I can also see that it is not the same as DM, but those that have a propensity to drift into silence, will start from anywhere.
Namaste
Hi BuddhiHermit
Thanks for sharing this. You know…over the past week I have laughed and laughed so many times…over the fact that I actually from the very start 5 years ago unknowingly managed to do the DM practice wrong. In the DM book there is a paragraph on page 29 under the heading “Thoughts and Mantra Together” that reads:
In some cultures, mantras are used in the background of the mind constantly in daily activity, always going on with whatever the people are doing. Deep meditation is not like that.
From this my blond mind got the idea that repeating the mantra back to back was not correct DM procedure. Even though the next sentences in the paragraph reads as follows:
"It is a specific practice we sit and do twice per day, letting go of all else. Then we go out in our daily life and forget about meditation and mantra. Whatever our life is in daily activity, that is what we do. This is mentioned because sometimes when people with a “mantra habit” learn deep meditation, they think that engaging in regular thought processes with the mantra in the background will be the same as deep meditation. It is not.
In the “Secrets of John Wilder” book, it is suggested to say the mantra with an “inward intention”. John also speaks of how in DM we let go of the mantra at the same time as we are being with it (p. 40)
From this it is easy to see that we do actually repeat the mantra back to back
I was just being daft in understanding the instructions 
Anyway - for whatever it is worth, when instructing people I always told them that the tempo of the repetitions didn’t matter, that the only objective was to “gently come back to the mantra once we were off it”. And that if thoughts were there to not push them away, but gently favor the mantra. The retreat in Toronto was the first time someone specifically asked about saying the mantra back to back…and so thanks to that, the misunderstanding in me was uncovered. It is really rather funny…and I am very very grateful
After the initial clunky fase when I started doing AYP DM some 5+ years ago had settled, there would always be space between the repitions of the mantra. Then eventually…and this happened about a year and a half ago… it only took one repetition of the mantra…the mantra said once…before the falling inwards would happen, and so the way I see it today is that I was then with a refinement of the mantra. When “inwards” I was in a continuous vibration…or resonance of it…not being aware that this itself was the mantra repeating itself…back2back2back2back…
Funny life isn’t it…and thank you life for taking care of me anyway, despite of the mistakes… 
Anyway - because of my mistake in the beginning years, I must have cultivated a habit of Samyama without knowing it. So hey…maybe not so strange that a spontaneous habit of letting go would then form outside meditation. It was never intended…I never said the mantra between meditation times…but the letting go in daily life happened anyway…
However - I could never do AYP Samyama for very long. I would always overload :)…maybe not so strange, eh? After all that “hidden” samyama…
So again…please follow Yoganis instructions…it was never my intention to “modify” the DM procedure.
And as for:
Well…yes and no.
Because to me…I have stopped talking about “presence”…“wholeness”…“bliss”…etc
Our core in expression is the presence…yes. But…I like your expression: being Total.
This resonates with me…because…being total actually means always being authentic. It does not mean “I am fully present and so I am enlightened now”. It simply means…I can bear all my sides…all my strange ways…all my dishonesty…all my stubbornness, as long as my heart is truthful about it and unwise actions that happens from a place of blindness are set straight by being open and straight about it once the “mistakes” are seen. This is how I learned not to repeat “mistakes” - because of the stickiness in my heart that resulted from unwise actions. And stickiness in heart is the worst thing…it clouds the potency of “the look”…and clarity is lost. Joy is lost too. Because deep down…we always know when we lie to ourselves. When we lie…all kinds of chatter starts inside…
So…when we are authentic, there is no inner fight. This is how presence comes through. And this is why comparing should not happen. Because it is not “how deep is the presence” that is the crux of the matter. It is the linear aspect that is important…in other words, always listen to inner dishonesty that creates unrest inside…and set it straight by being honest. First inside, and then outside will follow. Funny isn’t it…that it is actually TIME that allows for deeper Now/presence. We cannot manipulate the deepening…it is not in “our hands”. But we can work on being as authentic about where we are at all times. We are ourselves then. Total. And in this relaxedness…in this inner peace…life can flow.
So for me…it is not about the presence anymore. Wallowing in my own presence (no matter how “wide” or “deep” it is) is not very beneficial…or rather…it doesn’t feel like the natural thing to do. Not natural like a tree is natural, if you know what I mean…
It is actually the action that is the crux of the matter. It is not the presence for the sake of the presence. The presence is there for the sake of the action.
Wise actions in a million forms can then continue to happen as it must.
And the Heart can go on smiling.
Hi Katrine:
Such a brave and beautiful sharing about your journey. Deeply moving. Thank you.
One thing is for sure. You are not a “forgetful mountain climber”, and we are all the better for it.
The guru is in you.
Hi Jeff, Katrine, and Yaming,
the “hit - echo - fadeout” cycles sound like the long ditch-to-ditch journey between rajas (hit, too active) and tamas (fadeout, too passive); that’s part of the learning, but as our balance gradually improves, the amplitude between the opposites shrinks, and the mind stays on track by and large within the same lane of sattva (beyond the push-pull game of the gunas).
I wouldn’t actively alter the technique, just accept it in case things happen along the path. I favor Yogani’s way of “favoring” it instead of pushing it too hard or letting it happen too passively.
Thanks, Yogani and Katrine for the whole topic. When I first read Katrine’s post, I thought I had wasted 5 precious years of my life, doing DM the wrong way, repeating the mantra “back-to-back”, till I lost it to other thoughts, and on realising this, going back to repeating it “back-to-back”. I am glad Yogani clarified, to my great relief. I re-read lesson 366. and this has also provided great relief, and re-assurance that everything I am doing, as per Yogani’s lessons, are in fact quite correct. Thanks Yogani and Katrine, once again.
Krish
Hi Katrine, and thanks for your response.
For a while there, I thought about appending this quote to my posts - “What is, is, and What ain’t, ain’t”
Now those words seem like a poor imitation of the life that already declares itself in expression every moment.
When I started on my path, my very first decision was that I would always honour self-honesty.
These days I call it “being ethical”, and “having integrity”, and sometimes “being a natural human” but I guess it’s all authenticity by another name. One useful benefit is that it makes it extremely difficult to wallow.
I may be walking the plain in a different direction, but I prefer to widen my experience - it makes expression all the richer.
Namaste
Hi Everyone
Just thought I would chime in with a few observations I have made since Katrine first started this topic as I have done a bit of experimentation and observation on the differences between saying the mantra “backtoback” and “letting go of the mantra.”
What I have noticed is this…
When saying the mantra “backtoback” I find that it is much easier to have thoughts overlapping the mantra. The mantra becomes mechanical (for me) and the thoughts slowly start to creep in on top of the mantra. Doing DM this way I do not seem to ever totally lose the mantra.
What I have noticed with dropping the mantra is that I “blank/black out” much easier and end up with no thoughts, no mantra and essentially no awareness either.
What I have found is optimal for me is “the middle ground” between these two approaches. I find that repeating the mantra but still leaving a few seconds of space between the repetitions seems to be ideal (for me). Doing it this way I find that it is rare when there are thoughts overlaying the mantra, and it is also rare when I completely lose awareness.
Just some observations from the field.
Love!
P.S> All that said however, I know that it is best not to dilute the DM practice with extra “rules” so my repeating of the mantra with a few seconds of silence in between repetitions is not a hard and fast rule, nor is it something I strive for. It is just an observation that leaving some space between repetitions (and the fact that I am doing “repetitions” is what makes this technique different from Katrine’s “letting go of the mantra”) seems to be optimal for me. I am not striving for this though… it is what seems to happen naturally here and seems to work the best…for me.
Carson,
I deeply respect you for examining DM carefully in your own awareness and sharing these results with us.
Would you be so kind to let me paraphrase your results in my way of thinking, and then have you respond again?
If we mechanically repeat the mantra “harshly” with “ordinary awareness”, the practice doesn’t work.
If we repeat the mantra by letting the mantra “fall into the stillness”, that’s all well and good… but that’s not meditation, that’s Samyama… that’s not DM.
So these two methods are contra-indicated… as DM is a baseline practice designed to CAUSE stillness… and gently stimulate and prompt purification… DM can’t rely on these already existing, or it’s not DM at all.
So the middle ground as you say is wise.
This easy repetition allows the ordinary mind to be present and to learn… and keeps it from interfering. The spaces that naturally develop are the more subtle aspects of ourself taking the opportuity to sync up in communication with that normally too busy to notice ordinary awareness. This ‘tension’ … this tickling … this friction … between ‘outer’ and ‘inner’ is what loosens up gunk and allows the silence to start forming.
I think that it would also be fair to say, that the boredom that the ordinary mind experiences, make it eager for sensation… sensation that the more subtle layers of mind are eager to provide!
These factors are augmented by the energetic stimulation of the mantra itself, which I examined in my other post on DM in alternative.
Would this be a fair way to characterize your findings?
Thanks again for bringing up this topic… I have zero doubt that a number of people still are confused.
Love,
Kev
Hi Kevin
Well, I’m not quite sure what “ordinary awareness” is, and I still think that mechanical mantra repetition “works,” I’ve just observed that it doesn’t seem to work as well as when I leave a bit of space between repetitions is all. I’m sure that there is still purification happening (as the purification is essentially the result of the vibration of “i am”) but it doesn’t seem to cultivate as much inner silence simply because the mantra is never fully lost (for me).
It seems that this method causes too much inner silence to be cultivated (for me). More then my nervous system can handle anyway. For example, at the last retreat Katrine and I instructed (in Toronto last month), I used this technique during the first meditation practice. For the majority of this practice one of the groundskeepers was cutting the grass on a “ride 'em lawn mower” directly outside the practice room window. I literally did not hear this even though at one point (I was told afterwards) the lawnmower shot a rock which hit the window directly behind me. Katrine told me after the meditation that my head was pretty much hanging at navel level. I was basically “out cold”… no awareness. At. All.
I would agree that DM is designed to gently “prompt” purification, but I wouldn’t say that it is designed to “cause stillness” (to me that almost implies force)… I would use the word “cultivate” and not “cause.” Probably just splitting hairs here, but the word “cause” (to me) indicates that if one is doing DM correctly that you will feel stillness. This is not always the case. Sometimes DM stirs stuff up so much that stillness is no longer recognized (at least that is my experience). I like the word cultivate better because it does not indicate immediate results, especially not “still on the cushion results.” The word “cultivate” to me indicates that there is a process involved and that stillness is not necessarily noticed/recognized (during the practice especially) right away. For me, stillness is usually noticed in hindsight.
Hope this clarifies what I’m saying a bit.
Love!