Perhaps these are shamanistic, but they are also Indian. Everything you mention has a very ancient history in India. Also every Tibetan lineage practices these things. Bon has adopted Dzogchen and Bon is a specifically shamanistic tradition (though a very deep shamanism as selfonlypath says). But to say that Tibetan Buddhism or Nyingmpa is a mixture of Tibetan shamanism and Indian Buddhism doesn’t make any sense, because divination, magic, etc., were all transmitted by the Indian adepts. I practice dharma protectors, make offerings to earth spirits, divination and dream yoga, so I practice shamanism in the Kagyu lineage.
Selfonlypath, If you like to believe karmamudra is a shamanistic practice go ahead, believe what you want. It’s your right. Don’t let facts get in the way.
Adamant
Hi Adamant,
Absolutely. As I said, I don’t know what the sourse of shamanism in Nyingma Buddhism is, Indian or Tibetan. I doubt that anyone does.
I guess that depends on what we call Shamanism. Here is the definition given in the Macmillan dictionary of Anthropology:
“A Siberian term for a complex of religious and ethnomedicinal beliefs and practices… Shamanic experience is generally obtained by means of the use of different kinds of altered states of consciousness which may be related to the use of hallucinogens or to other types of exceptional sensory deprivation or stimulation.” p256
So would karmamudra practice count as the attainment of an altered state of consciousness related to exceptional stimulation? It’s a fine line isn’t it?
Christi
What fascinates me is to realize that very deep & ancient BonPo shamanism traced back to 18000 years ago hence much before buddha (2500 years ago) & no link with India was able to reach Dzogchen directly. Most shamans get stuck on external practice, some realize tantric internal practice & really a few reach secret practice of dzogchen or advaita.
Maybe i’m wrong in thinking karmamudra is shamanistic but the real worldwide issue: shaman label has been corrupted or defined in so many ways. The best book I know of has been written by my friend Dmitry Ermakov http://www.boandbon.com. I just know that “path of the flesh” is the least documented in shamanic lore whatever culture !
One way without going into deep theorie of karma mudra & transmigration after death is to realize that for any sexual practice:
- our parents made love in this plane so a baby came from the cosmos and incarnated here
- the baby grows and is on the quest of where do I come from, who am I now, where do I go when I die
- one tantra among others (there are many tantra variants) is red tantra aka left hand tantra
- red tantra says many things, in particular one way to answer the above quest is to realize that going back to the sexual act again, we can see the all situation and realize the answer of the quest
- in other words, making love is one possible tunnel one can enter consciously to then travel on an expansion of energy / counsciousness leading to the real experience of death zone
Albert
Dzogchen doesn’t predate the Buddha. It originates with Prahevajra at least 200 years after the Buddha’s death. Bon adopted Dzogchen, as well as many other Buddhist traditions, like tantra. There are those that make the argument that Bon independently came up with their own Dzogchen. It’s an interesting thought, but the evidence points to a Bon’s wholesale adoption of tantras, guru yoga, dharma protectors and the rest.
Adamant
[quote=“Christi”]
Hi Adamant,
I guess that depends on what we call Shamanism. Here is the definition given in the Macmillan dictionary of Anthropology:
“A Siberian term for a complex of religious and ethnomedicinal beliefs and practices… Shamanic experience is generally obtained by means of the use of different kinds of altered states of consciousness which may be related to the use of hallucinogens or to other types of exceptional sensory deprivation or stimulation.” p256
So would karmamudra practice count as the attainment of an altered state of consciousness related to exceptional stimulation? It’s a fine line isn’t it?
Christi
There are no lines. Adamant
My current position is that karmamudra is nonsense.
And sex has nothing to do with kundalini.
Although if I wanted to prove myself wrong, what I would do is focus on my subnavel area during sustained pre-orgasmic bliss while at the same time distinguishing bliss from thoughts.
Maybe someone wants to give this a shot?
Everything is nonsense.
Adamant
Adamant, do you know an english translation of kagyu’s texts of the six yogas of Naropa?
All the translations of the six yoga seem to based on gelug commentary on the six yogas
There isn’t one. Kagyu’s are oral transmission only.
Adamant
ok what about any other school besides gelug
No. Not that I’m aware of.
Adamant
What is the difference between the father tantras and the six yogas of naropa?
They cover the same material…
I have that big academic book:
Aryadeva’s Lamp that Integrates the Practices (Caryamelapakapradipa): The Gradual Path of Vajrayana Buddhism according to the Esoteric Community Noble Tradition
Translated and edited by Christian K. Wedemeyer
Hi Alwayson, The tantras are basically about mantra in the form of deity yoga. The Six Yogas like post-completion stage and are independent of the tantras. They were independently accumulated by Tilopa.
Adamant
because in chapter 7 of Aryadeva’s lamp, the crux of the whole procedure has to do with a visualization procedure and not sex. The sex stuff is something else.
I know. That’s what I’m talking about.
Adamant
So does Tilopa say you do need a karmamudra?