Jhana and Nirvikalpa Samadhi

[JDH (Jeff Dry Horse)]

TI,
My questions were the important part of message, not my answers.
You are looking at the proverbial finger pointing at the moon. You have cut the finger off the hand, and dissected it into mangled pieces. I am done looking at the finger with you. This forum is full of people looking at the moon using DM. If some other method gets you to that state, use that method twice a day with appropriate pacing, and reap the same results. You don’t have to believe it, you don’t have to understand it, you just have to do it. It works anyway.

[nearoanoke]

All,
TI brings up some interesting questions.
I had these questions too after I read some Buddhist books. Buddhism has two set of practices; Concentration practices & Insight Practices. The Concentration practices involve concentrating the mind upon an object single-pointedly and there are various levels (jhanas) and stages of achievement to it. These practices sharpen the mind but do not bring about awakening. The next set of practices are the Insight Practices and in these there are different practices like noting practice, observing the sensations (mind, body) and applying the three characteristics (Impermanence, Suffering/Unsatisfactoriness, No-Self) to each of the sensations that arise. These insight practices also have different levels (jhanas) and are supposed to show your reality and bring upon awakening finally.
The Buddhist folks often spend hours of meditation practices and even many retreats before they make progress. I am curious as to how DM/TM achieves the same effect with a two 20 min practices daily. The DM definitely feels full after twice daily practices though and it doesn’t look like a method that we can do hours together like the Buddhist practices without getting overloaded.
Also comparing these two methods, where does DM actually fall into? Is it a concentration practice or is it an insight practice? Buddhism clearly says that Concentration practices dont bring about awakening. I think DM should be much more than a concentration practice for sure. We definitely are not concentrating hard and trying to maintain attention on the mantra. Infact there are various mantra (loud-chanting and inner-repetition) methods that involve just concentrating on the mantra and I don’t think they’ll bring about awakening. Someone on the forum earlier called DM a letting go practice and I believe that comes closer to what it is.
Comparing different systems may not be a good idea and not every system needs to fall in line with the Buddhist methods. It will be interesting to know how DM compares though especially as Patanjali’s Dharana and Dhyana fit well with the Buddhist Concentration and Insight practices.

• Near

[Christi (Tristan Dorling)]

Hi Christi,
I appreciate the time and effort that you took to respond to my questions.
All the best.

TI

You’re welcome.

[Christi (Tristan Dorling)]

Hi Near,
AYP and Buddhist practices are not all that different. AYP makes use of breathing meditation and mantra meditation, and Buddhists also use both breathing meditations and mantra meditations. Buddhists use self-inquiry practices (insight meditations) and AYP uses self-inquiry practices.
DM is neither a concentration practice or an insight practice. Spinal Breathing pranayama is more of a concentration practice. Don’t forget AYP isn’t limited to Deep Meditation, just as Buddhism isn’t limited to breathing meditation. By the time you add on asana practice, SBP, samyama, and savasana you can easily be looking at a one hour practice twice a day, or three times a day on retreat. And that doesn’t include self-inquiry which in AYP is done as a separate practice outside of sitting practices.
Christi

[nearoanoke]

Here is a link to the Buddhist Insight Practice called “Noting”
http://www.interactivebuddha.com/Insight%20Practice%20Instructions%20Legal%20size.pdf

Concept 1: Our sensate reality is the basis of insight practices. Reality is made of six kinds of sensations: physical sensations, sounds, sights, tastes, smells, and thoughts. These experiences are all we can know directly. When doing insight practice, reality is defined solely by what can be experienced in that moment. Corollary: Everything not experienced in that moment is assumed to not exist at that moment.
Practice: our first goal in insight practice is to identify the sensations that make up our life with attention that is steady and precise enough to get to know them very well.
In order to do this formally, clearly and consistently, we do a practice called “noting”. We make a quiet mental note of whatever we experience. We also try to stay with the sensations of breathing, either in the abdomen or at the tip of the nose when possible. If we notice the breath rising, we note “rising”. If we notice the breath falling, we note, “falling”. Similarly, we may note “thinking”, “wandering”, “feeling”, “hearing”, “seeing”, “smelling”, and “tasting”. When walking, we may note the “lifting”, “moving” and “placing” of our feet.
We may also note such experiences as “fear”, “happiness”, “pain”, “boredom”, “restlessness”, “doubt”, “wanting”, “hunger”, “confusion”, returning after these to the noting of the rising and falling of the breath.
Concept 2: The Three Characteristics of Impermanence, Suffering and No-self, are the key to deep insights. Impermanence means that many sensations arise and vanish completely during every second of awareness. Suffering means that the illusion of a watcher, observer, or doer, commonly called the “self”, is inherently painful. No-self means that all sensations arise on their own in a natural causal fashion and are aware where they are, requiring no separate agent or observer at all.
Practice: Once we have applied the first concept and gotten to know sensations as they are, then we can perceive them come and go, feel the painful tension inherent in the illusion of an observer or agent, and notice that sensations arise over there quite on their own, not requiring any observer or constituting either a self or other. They are merely part of the transient and causal nature of things.
The simple process of noting clearly and consistently, say at the rate of at least once per second, can stabilize attention enough that direct insight into the Three Characteristics arises. The corollary of this is that while we are lost in the content of our stories, dramas, thoughts, and concern for the specifics of what arises, we will not make good progress in insight. When we focus instead on the Three Characteristics of whatever arises, we will make progress in insight. Staying with the sensations of breathing is very helpful in this.
Note carefully and consistently for the duration of the meditation period, focusing on the breath but noting other things when these catch your attention. Be sure to carefully note “wandering” when the mind wanders and “thinking” when thoughts distract your attention from the sensations of breathing. Return your attention gently but firmly to the sensations of breathing.

If you see this practice, it is essentially similar to Deep Meditation in that we gently but firmly return to the breath whenever we wander. The only difference is that we mentally make a note of all the distractions (and as we advance we try to observe/see the three qualities of the distractions).

[Tibetan_Ice]

@JDH

TI,
My questions were the important part of message, not my answers.
You are looking at the proverbial finger pointing at the moon. You have cut the finger off the hand, and dissected it into mangled pieces. I am done looking at the finger with you. This forum is full of people looking at the moon using DM. If some other method gets you to that state, use that method twice a day with appropriate pacing, and reap the same results. You don’t have to believe it, you don’t have to understand it, you just have to do it. It works anyway.

Hi JDH
Sorry, I did not mean to expose you. I’m looking into the night sky and I am trying not to mistake a streetlamp for the moon.
I will leave you with a quote from Nisargadatta, from “I AM THAT”:

Q: There is a Yogi who says that for realisation the eightfold Yoga is not necessary; that will-power alone will do. It is enough to concentrate on the goal with full confidence in the power of pure will to obtain effortlessly and quickly what others take decades to achieve.
M: Concentration, full confidence, pure will! With such assets no wonder one attains in no time.
This Yoga of will is all right for the mature seeker, who has shed all desires but one. After all, what is will but steadiness of heart and mind. Given such steadfastness all can be achieved.

TI

[Tibetan_Ice]

@nearoanoke

…
Comparing different systems may not be a good idea and not every system needs to fall in line with the Buddhist methods. It will be interesting to know how DM compares though especially as Patanjali’s Dharana and Dhyana fit well with the Buddhist Concentration and Insight practices.

• Near

Hi Near,
I see very little difference between Buddhist Concentrative practices and Patanjali’s Sutras. Both require tremendous effort and discipline and sustained concentration.
The thing I appreciate about most Buddhist texts about meditation (The Dalai Lama, Allan B Wallace, Ajahn Brahm, Kelsang Gyatso, Khenpo Karthar) is that they all describe the stages (or afflictions) that one must deal with when developing one-pointed concentration through meditation.
There are The Five Hinderances.
link: http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebmed051.htm

The major obstacles to successful meditation and liberating insight take the form of one or more of the Five Hindrances. The whole practice leading to Enlightenment can be well expressed as the effort to overcome the Five Hindrances, at first suppressing them temporarily in order to experience Jhana and Insight, and then overcoming them permanently through the full development of the Noble Eightfold Path.
So, what are these Five Hindrances? They are:
KAMACCHANDA : Sensory Desire
VYAPADA : Ill Will
THINA-MIDDHA: Sloth and Torpor
UDDHACCA-KUKKUCCA : Restlessness and Remorse
VICIKICCHA : Doubt

Or this one:
link: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/nyanaponika/wheel026.html

Unshakable deliverance of the mind is the highest goal in the Buddha’s doctrine. Here, deliverance means: the freeing of the mind from all limitations, fetters, and bonds that tie it to the Wheel of Suffering, to the Circle of Rebirth. It means: the cleansing of the mind of all defilements that mar its purity; the removing of all obstacles that bar its progress from the mundane (lokiya) to the supramundane consciousness (lokuttara-citta), that is, to Arahatship.
Many are the obstacles which block the road to spiritual progress, but there are five in particular which, under the name of hindrances (nivarana), are often mentioned in the Buddhist scriptures:
1.Sensual desire (kamacchanda),
2.Ill-will (byapada),
3.Sloth and torpor (thina-middha),
4.Restlessness and remorse (uddhacca-kukkucca),
5.Sceptical doubt (vicikiccha).

So how does that relate?
I found this just now:
link: http://transcendental-meditation-honestly.blogspot.com/2010/03/mental-sinking-and-tm.html

Definitely TM induces and extremely relaxing state of body and mind, but it induces mental fogginess. From a Buddhist point of view it is basically training in mental sinking which is a state of meditative concentration in which we have hold on the object of meditation but in which our clarity of it is fading. Mental sinking is a form of faulty concentration and yet is the essence of the practice of TM.

Really? Here is more on mental sinking. (is this the fading of the DM mantra?)
link: http://books.google.ca/books?id=OixlLsoIBXEC&pg=PA160&lpg=PA160&dq=buddhist+mental+sinking&source=bl&ots=Pcn-od8pKm&sig=WeToQmO-MBs_Ro4dqJjqds1e8pE&hl=en&ei=F-7eTqeVEsXZiALC48XcCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=buddhist%20mental%20sinking&f=false
It says that gross mental sinking occurs when:

…both the intensity and the clarity diminish.
These obstacles, mental wandering, mental excitement, and mental sinking, must all be overcome if we are to attain actual tranquil abiding.

Also, most buddhist and zen instructions on meditation say that one must keep the spine straight and not resting on a backrest. According to them, resting the back promotes dullness and sleep.
Yet, in DM, we rest the back.
link: http://www.aypsite.org/13.html

Find a quiet, comfortable place where you can sit, preferably with back support.

Doesn’t resting the back during meditation also interfere with the udana prana current that helps keep the body upright, that is used for levitation and is attributed to reasons why the yogis and saints can walk on water?
DM appears to be on the super-easy end of the spectrum, which is why it is so seductive and Buddhist meditation appears to be downright hard and disciplined. Doesn’t it?

TI

[Christi (Tristan Dorling)]

Hi TI,

Also, most buddhist and zen instructions on meditation say that one must keep the spine straight and not resting on a backrest. According to them, resting the back promotes dullness and sleep.
Yet, in DM, we rest the back.

A back support is recommended for beginners in AYP Just as it is for beginners in Buddhist practice, but once you are comfortable practising with back support, it is recommended that you give it up and learn to support yourself. This is very important in Yoga, both practically, and metaphorically.
As for the 5 hindrances, yes, those are things that will come up during your yoga practice, and which you will need to overcome.
The most important thing, or you could say, the only important thing, is to choose a path (any path) and practice it consistently and diligently to the end. Any path will get you there, but you have to choose one and stick to it. At the moment you are still spiritual window shopping.
Christi

[chit-ananda51 (Chitananda)]

Hi TI
Your study on comparative meditational practices(Buddhist and everything) is phenomenal. However here in AYP, most of the people visit the lessons/forum look for a practice that is simple and can provide stable results in the long run. Amazingly, the techniques given here worked for many and works for me. It is all that matters at the end of the day. A life filled with love and sharing. If we are missing something in this lifetime, the grace which brought us this far will lead us even more now or in the days to come.
Intellectual expositions on ‘not’ using back-support or how DM works or how it has another practice flavour does not matter - no matter how much mentally titillating. I agree that you have an in-depth understanding of wide spectrum of esoteric practices and I respect your views.
All that I feel is these discussions should not put a new soul coming into this forum for simple solutions and question the teachings presented here. Yogani has made huge efforts to keep his lessons simple without discussing his personal experiences too much for a reason. By this time, he had the wisdom to understand that each individual is unique(karmically) and what works for one may NOT work for another(this can even be shared). But what is discussed above - before trying them out for min. 5-10 years is not that acceptable. It is upto them to choose.
Even if I tried AYP for 10-15 years and it did not work for me, I will not post here saying that it won’t work(for the reasons already stated above). Its again me! Just felt like pouring it.
P.S : Normally I don’t like to discuss much on what’s on paper unless it is tried and tested in the course of life.

[Amfreenow]

@chit-ananda51

Hi TI
All that I feel is these discussions should not put a new soul coming into this forum for simple solutions and question the teachings presented here. Yogani has made huge efforts to keep his lessons simple without discussing his personal experiences too much for a reason. By this time, he had the wisdom to understand that each individual is unique(karmically) and what works for one may NOT work for another(this can even be shared). But what is discussed above - before trying them out for min. 5-10 years is not that acceptable. It is upto them to choose.

While I understand that the forums are directed towards the majority of people who are practicing the AYP methods, nevertheless, it is my understanding that the Other Systems and Alternate Approaches subforum which is this subforum, is actually to create a discourse outside of the fundamental and very wonderful practices of AYP.
There are many yogis who have benefited immensely from using the AYP practices in some permutation or another as an add on to their previous long term curriculum of yogic and meditational practices. I asm surely one of those, who have enjoyed and benefited from the AYP discussions and programs. But for the more experienced mature yogi, we are not easily impressionable types, because we have already evolved prior to AYP, so it is a wonderful apportunity Yogani has allowed us to speak about Other Systems and Alternate Approaches, in a spirit of spiritual tolerance and in a spirit of common goals and of sharing, just in case someone might be interested.
And though Yogani does not talk about his personal past history, as to whether he was in Kriya Yoga or whatever, he has written a novel about someone who does go through a spiritual awakening with all the experiences and pitfalls, that must have been his experiences and pitfalls too, or he wouldn´t have known about them.
I didn´t really come on line today to say any of this, but thought it might be good to do so a moment ago. I´m on vacation in sunny Mexico and wanted to just say a few words about my practices today.
I sat in the sun, in the central plaza in this small town, with eye lids closed, and did my variations of spinal breathing. As the sun hit my closed eyelids, I felt Ajna awareness light right up, and the sunlight then filtered through to the base of the brain that is the actual Ajna center from the actual physical eyeballs, to the pineal gland at the brainstem level. That also lit up, and kundalini energy swept up from the bottoms of my feet, up both legs to the chakra centers lighting up the entire system all the way on up. I did the following with this, while also feeling the entire system overall:
As I often like to do, I traced awareness and energy moving up with in breath, moving from Muladhara up and moving towards the left, to 2nd chakra, then swerving to the right towards 3rd chakra, then piercing that, swerving left up through Anahata, then swerving right piercing Throat chakra, then spiraling up through Ajna, then into Crown chakra. A variation on this is to move awareness a la spinal breathing same as above variant, but this time over and over feel the awareness move up to the right from Throat to Ajna on the inbreath, then moving down from Ajna to Throat on exhalation on the left, then moving up to Ajna on the inbreath, then down to Throat on exhalation, and so on. This all took around twenty minutes. This is a couple variations I found useful while allowing the sunlight to filter through closed eyelids. My opinion is that we should be free to follow our intuition to allow energy to circulate freely, not be afraid, but to be in a state of celebration of life, and do a freestyle series of intuitively guided practice variants if we so choose. Be playful with the life force, let{s enjoy it while we can. Hope this helps.

[chit-ananda51 (Chitananda)]

Hi Amfreenow
I just read between the lines of TI’s post. Nothing more.

[jeff]

Hi Amfreenow,
Thank you for sharing. Enjoy the beautiful sun, beach, weather and circulating energy. As you said, as with everything in life, energy should be enjoyed.

[Amfreenow]

@chit-ananda51

Hi Amfreenow
I just read between the lines of TI’s post. Nothing more.

I know what you mean chit anandaji. I agree with you too on that reading. A lot of good energy can be wasted on irrelevant commentary that borders on unwise speech, since it can be a distraction for the speaker. thank you.

[chit-ananda51 (Chitananda)]

Hi Amfreenow

A lot of good energy can be wasted on irrelevant commentary that borders on unwise speech

Why did you add that ‘ji’ - my Indian nativity? I’m much younger than all you people in this forum.

[gatito]

@Christi

The most important thing, or you could say, the only important thing, is to choose a path (any path) and practice it consistently and diligently to the end. Any path will get you there, but you have to choose one and stick to it.
Christi

I absolutely agree.
Thank you for clarifying a few issues that were very significant questions for me.
With Love
gatito

[Christi (Tristan Dorling)]

Hi Gatito,
You’re welcome.