Well I think that requires a little will, but that’s just semantics.
So i’m not too far off- I’ve been just thinking the mantra, all I have to do differently is not add any definition or refinements to it. Just the sound itself.
After all, it has been working wonderfully, but I want to get all I can from it.
I find that when I allow my heart to relax/open, I feel outpouring love. When i allow my solar plexus to relax/open, I feel a fetal connection to the universe…no more self-contained feeling. When I allow my throat to relax/open, I can’t tell who’s doing the inhaling/exhaling…it just feels very zero sum. And when I allow my ajna to relax/open, the local narration stops, and thoughts just “are”, without their in any way identifying as “me”. David and others, is that what you’re talking about?
(BTW, I say “allow” rather than “make” because the natural state is relaxed and open, but we subconsciously choose to grip and close for some weird reason all our lives. So I’m not “doing” something - there’s no control on my part. It’s actually a cessation of doing something via a mindset of simply allowing myself to be opened.)
Doesn’t this still take a dollop of intention? By ‘allowing’ you’re surrendering to what is, but the focus is there, however briefly. B’c I too have a much more open and SUCCESSFUL<------- (! that should get a reaction!) meditation when I place my attention on my heart chakra, but I understand by now that ANY act of will during meditation is anathema, and so I dutifully return to the mantra. It’s very tempting, tho, to stay with the heart opening, as it feels so good. But if I choose to think of it as a surrender rather than an intention, I may allow it to continue.
[quote]
thoughts just “are”, without their in any way identifying as “me”
[/quote]Hi Jim,
I think this is what Yogani refers to as “the witness”.
jim wrote:
>"when I allow my ajna to relax/open, the local narration stops, and thoughts just “are”, without their in any way identifying as “me”. David and others, is that what you’re talking about? "
It’s not what I meant by stopping my thoughts, but it is probably just as valuable, if not more.
To stop my thoughts I sort of connect my will with nothingness.
Etherfish (great handle, btw): Why would I want to stop them? Isn’t the whole point to let the world - including your mind - just be? Stopping thoughts seems kind of cause/effect, though maybe I’ll change my mind on this eventually.
Meg:
I know what you’re saying, but I think you may be overjudging. Anyway, the way past this is to stop having it be you, period. Let God course through (and express through) your meat, and just stay the hell out of the entire thing. Heart, shmart.
Ether said:
Wow, that’s very useful.
I’m glad I can say something useful every now and then. 
Jim asked:
David and others, is that what you’re talking about?
No, my ‘stopping my thoughts’ is a deliberate closure thing. It’s as if I can ‘close off’ my thoughts. Like squeezing a hosepipe. It’s a kind of mental muscle. It is not a ‘hard’ squeeze though, but rather a subtle skillful one.
I found it a good exercise, a good drill. It can also help me rest, which sounds counterintuitive, but is true.
It’s limited as a meditation though, for the reasons I mentioned. Because the will stays there. The will does not relax and dissolve. It cannot match mantra yoga in that way. A part of me has to stay there and keep the hosepipe squeezed lightly.
great answer.
jim wrote:
“Why would I want to stop them? Isn’t the whole point to let the world - including your mind - just be? Stopping thoughts seems kind of cause/effect, though maybe I’ll change my mind on this eventually.”
You probably wouldn’t want to. Thoughts don’t belong to us anyway. They come from outside us, and we just repeat them. It was something I learned a long time ago when I was into Castaneda books. It’s very hard to learn, and takes a long time. It does have a profound effect once you learn it though, at least it did for me. It made me question my whole identity and existence and all reasoning I had ever done, my perception of the world, the structure of time, etc.
I don’t know about other people, but for me it enhances psychic ability. Sometimes I get clairvoyant visions, but if I start thinking they disappear instantly. So I’ve learned to stop thinking if I’m getting a vision. i love watching them. Yesterday I had a vision of wolves interacting in the sub- zero snow. It was probably happening in the mountains above where I live. The visions are so high definition they captivate my attention. Sometimes they answer prayers, but mostly I have no idea what or where they are. has anyone seen a whole series of circles full of light that start at your head and travel away getting smaller, and some have a vision in them?
OK, back to the mantra. . .
Ok I thought of a concept that may work for me. If I just think “i am interested in following the AYAM sound”. That way it doesn’t have definition or location.
The way my mind works, I need something like a concept to follow.
What do you think?
BTW stopping my thoughts is slightly different for me. I don’t feel like I’m forcing anything to stop, but my will is engaged in making my attention stay on something it’s not used to; nothingness.
So if there is a vision, since thinking makes them stop, I put my will on nothingness, then turn my perception to the vision. I think it’s the same as watching without judging or defining. Your will and attention don’t need to be on the same thing at the same time.
Etherfish,
Have you tested to just do something, only saying the mantra mentally, and not trying to do anything else, not caring about anything else that may or may not happen in the mind, including thoughts and concepts… just coming back to the mantra if you realise you are not saying the mantra?
Yeah but that leads to a rhythm and location because of robotic repeating. told you my mind is a little different! I was looking for a way to just say it while removing that rhythm & location thing.
But I will try that again also, in case i’m missing something.
Thanks
Etherfish,
In this thread: http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=678
I addressed this to Yogani:
“if I only do the prescribed active part, I have a tendency go into a concentration mode on the mantra where it rings continuously and I get absorbed into it, and no thoughts will come.”
Could this be similar to what you label robotic repeating?
And Yogani answered:
“It is okay to be absorbed like that. It is not concentration. It is samadhi, which is absorption in inner silence.”
Just wanted to share this.
I have a similar problem with rhythm; the mantra gets entangled with the rhythm of the breath and then I have a very difficult time separating the two. I sense that it’s not such a good thing; that the mantra needs to be free from the breath (and everything else) in order to do its thing.
One thing I’ve been experimenting with, and with some success, is moving the mantra outside my body. I’ve noticed recently that, though silent, the mantra is still situated gutturally. I even notice the muscles at the back of my throat slightly contracting to form the mantra. By removing the mantra from my throat and imagining it as a sound external to my body, it has helped to bring home the idea that I’m not responsible for anything but hearing it. And now to sound really woo-woo, the relocated mantra has spontaneously taken on the feel of an aura, as if it’s a sound that completely surrounds me, like an audible halo.
Hi Meg,
My sense is that the correct procedure of deep meditation is to not arrange it this way, to rather let the breath go with the mantra if it wants to, but not to worry about it, to just go back to the mantra as soon as you become aware of if they are synchronized or not. I think over time you would become less aware of the breath altogether then. If I’m wrong, someone please correct me.
Dear weaver,
yes, don’t worry if the mantra and breath are not syncronised.My guru only breaths 4 times a minute in deep meditation and it would be difficult to chant the mantra at this pace if one was conscious enough to do so.If the breath moves away from the mantra it does not matter , the mantra is the important part. Once I teach my students to breathe correctly I have them take their attention to the mantra.
L&L
Dave
‘the mind can see further than the eyes’
Hi riptiz,
Thanks for your comment. Yes, I know that we don’t try to synchronize the mantra and the breath, but I was writing Meg that if they get synchronized, to not worry about that either.
Maybe I didn’t express myself clearly: I’m trying to separate mantra from breath, so that the two are independent of each other. And having a difficult time with it. I believe one of the early ayp lessons indicates that it’s not preferred to have them synchronized. My personal experience is that it’s a nuisance. I know that it’s impossible to completely de-synchronize breath and mantra, but mine tend to go on and on, once they find each other.
I like the mantra being outside my body - please don’t anyone tell me that I have to stop.
Hi Meg
I think you said that you have the little deep meditation book.
If you do turn to page 34 and you will see Yogani’s words on the breath synchronizing with the mantra he tells it much better than I or anyone else can for that matter.
Read its all there
RICHARD
Thank you Richard for pointing this out.
For Meg and anyone else reading this discussion, in case you don’t have “Deep Meditation”, it says on page 34:
“We do not make an effort to slow the breath while we are meditating. Neither do we deliberately synchronize the mantra with the breath. If it happens inadvertently, it is okay, but we do not favor it. We just leave the breath to do naturally what it will in deep meditation. Deep meditation is just a simple procedure of easily favoring the mantra, no matter what else may come to our attention - breath, thoughts, feelings, physical sensations, and so on.”