David said:
David I must be lucky that my guru is not a ‘common’ one who wants reverance.
Yes, I think you are indeed lucky.
Shanti said:
As a child you do mythologize your parents/uncles/aunts/… when they hurt you… that scar stays with you through life times David
Shanti, you are right that we mythologize our parents and older relatives way beyond the actual reality when we are children. But what is one of the most important lessons of adolescence? 
We are rarely in that 100% ‘trust in’ or ‘surrender to’ position wrt the Guru… that is when, I understand, the total connection that transforms is made. Even if we, when not ready, met a real Guru, we’d not be in a position to evaluate him or her, because we cannot understand his or her actions. So we will, till ready, meet teachers, as Yogani says, who will impart something useful (pain is the one of the greatest teachers, even though it is tremendously difficult to accept such a lesson, and it can take long for any understanding of it to seep in) It is traumatic to move away from any relationship that nourished, and then to accept that it not only ceased to nourish but became unpleasent; and the higher the plane of the relationship, the deeper the pain… yet, when the relationship has outlived its purpose, we move on to the next source of learning, or to fulfil unfinished tasks and desires. 
I could not relate to my teacher. Yet I learnt a lot, despite my strong resistance to his personality. When my resistance became larger than my learning I left. 
And here I am… hopefully, still learning, still on the path. If this helps anyone to arrive at a plateau of peace with the teacher, so be it. I was in some ways in a worse position than Babaly… I felt indignation and anger as well. Yet now both have dissolved… and I have only just taken the turn on the road and walked a few steps in this direction where I see you all… helping each other, sharing burdens… and there is Yogani ahead of us, gentle, smiling, setting an example, flicking off the ‘grim’ from the pilgrim’s progress. Beaut! I already thank my old teacher for getting me here…!
Nice post Sadhak, wise words, pain is the ultimate teacher, a reason to love our discomfort? It sets us free…
We are rarely in that 100% ‘trust in’ or ‘surrender to’ position wrt the Guru… that is when, I understand, the total connection that transforms is made.
I am sure these processes help some people. But it’s interesting to ask how many became genuinely, independently enlightened this way. Does anyone have uncontroversial examples?
The illustrious enlightened of whom I know (and indeed, some of these could be mythologized too to some extent), well, they didn’t actually seem to become enlightened through guru-devotion at all, and did not teach it as a path: just a small handful: Patanjali, Buddha, Milarepa, the Six Patriarchs of Zen, Ramakrishna, Ramana Maharshi, Lahiri Mahasaya, Nisagardatta Maharaj, Lao Tzu etc. etc.
And yet there are millions of people being given the surrender-to-the-guru-to-become-enlighened story.
Well, how true is this story, and why aren’t these guys teaching it?
My mom was a devout Catholic and had a great mythology about Marriage when she was younger. When you would listen to her talk, all problems with marriage not working out were the result of lack of commitment to it, and could be fixed by working on it according to the Mythology. When she grew older, she grew wiser. She had friends whom she respected whose marriages failed. She could see that they had no less commitment than she had, and had tried everything.
Likewise, people who believe the surrender-to-the-guru thing can say, if it didn’t work out for you, that you didn’t commit to it properly, that your surrender wasn’t 100%. Their thought system will allow them to continue believing that surrender-to-the-guru works to produce enlighenment no matter how many times it fails to do so.
Food for thought…
David,
It depends on your perception of what surrender is.Certainly in my experience the meditation is more powerful with the connection to guruji and I can feel the increase in energy and so can my students.Surrender to the guru does not make you his slave nor do you have to mythologise him.I have read your recent posts on mythology and I must say you are in the danger of mythologising AYP and Yogani as being the best thing since sliced bread. The very thing you dislike about gurus.Be happy in your practice and encourage others to help them but don’t create the same monster you are often trying to kill.
L&L
Dave
‘the mind can see further than the eyes’
Don’t forget yogani’s sage advice, “The Guru is in you”.
It is my understanding that a true Guru, in the flesh or not, is a vessel of God and enjoys the task of operating within our inner temples to help lead our devotions. A divine personality?
Even those God-merged beings who had no visible outward Guru had a relationship with Guru as Self within, “formed” or not.
Peace, alan
Dave said:
Surrender to the guru does not make you his slave nor do you have to mythologise him.
Agreed. Not everyone over-mythologizes their guru. Surrender is not automatically mythologization. I don’t intend to be implying that all of these relationships are out-of-whack. It’s a matter of where the expectations are in each particular case.
I have read your recent posts on mythology and I must say you are in the danger of mythologising AYP and Yogani as being the best thing since sliced bread.
Honestly Dave, I’m truly at loss to see where I mythologize AYP and Yogani. I’m positive and enthusiastic about AYP, but I don’t think I mythologize it. Do feel free to bring forward any examples where I might have gone overboard in my praise or expectations. I would be happy to change them if I have gone too far.
I look on Yogani as a Rishi, not a guru. Rishi to me is close in meaning to ‘expert’. I don’t mean ‘expert’ lightly, but on the other hand I don’t expect perfection, and if or whenever I think I see imperfect knowledge (and I think I do occasionally) I neither fuss about it nor mythologize it away. But the truth is that he is much more experienced and knowledgeable and much further on most aspects of this path than I am. Is that mythologization on my part? Hardly.
I neither let my ego delude me into thinking I am as much a Rishi as Yogani, nor delude myself into thinking he knows all of it. That’s balance, and I think I neither mythologize myself nor him. A favor to both of us!
Yogani, please say ‘thanks’ because I am not mythologizing you.
The guru is in you.
Hi David and Dave:
Thanks for keeping it in balance. I think the time when surrender to another has substantial spiritual benefit is when the other refuses it. Then there is a tension created that is to the benefit of the one who is trying to surrender, and they have only one place to go with it – within, which is where all the action is.
Unfortunately, this dynamic is rare, and there are many who go astray on both sides of the equation, as David points out. As soon as the business wanders from where it belongs, within the aspirant, it tends to get squandered in co-dependent relationships, entangling both the aspirant and the teacher. It is very hard to have productive interactions on the nuts and bolts of practices in that situation. The whole thing tends to get lost in the fog of the myth.
Still, it can go right sometimes, and, Dave, you seem to be in that kind of relationship. Bravo for that!
Oh, and thanks David for not mythologizing AYP or me. Now, excuse me while I climb back up on my pedestal. 
But seriously, as you all know, AYP is a work in progress (literally) as a whole and in every application by each person, and there is lots of room for new understandings and improvements. I expect it will always be that way. It is an unending process of unfoldment of self-knowledge for each of us, yes?
Yet, there is a basic structure we all operate within, defined by the very nature of our nervous system, and there are known principles involved which we can utilize for the purpose of spiritual transformation. There are numerous approaches and nuances within that structure, and each journey is unique to the individual. So there is always a lot to talk about…
The guru is in you.
You’ve reminded us that a Guru is not necessarily a person…can be a book, a tree, a stone…anything. What is it inside the seeker that draws out enlightenment from even a stone. Maybe that is the question (which leads to, why does one person have it and another not… is it all pre-scripted since the beginning of time by each individual soul?) Maybe, your inner quest, the inner guru guides you to the outer one. To give my example, I’d never have gone to the teacher I did, had I known about the method. However, some series of coincidences took me there, and something kept me there that long despite my chaffing on an almost daily basis for that long. And then something took me away from there with a certainity, even though I was anxious about leaving. It is said we have no choice in anything once we are born, except to be detached or attached to the outcome. This, if true, can both frustrate and bestow unending tranquility at different times.
Does anyone have an answer to why a soul would choose the script it did at the beginning of its journey? And why did it have choice then? (assuming that ‘everything is pre-destined’ is true).
Well Anthem, maybe it’s easy to be wise in theory. One should be able to learn from pain, otherwise it can also confuse the being, and kill the spirit. There has to be that key that converts pain into edible food for the soul. Did that happen Babaly? At least in instalments?
Dear David,
I cannot be specific as to the location as someone mailed me privately and pointed out the post where you gave your opinion that Yogani was a greater meditation teacher than Paramhansa. Now I think we can all agree that Yogani can explain it to Western English speaking people clearer and that much can be lost in translation from a different language.I am not doubting that Yoganis teachings are clear and concise although by his own admission you don’t need theory to progress simply practice is enough.In fact traditionally gurus don’t encourage questions because the aim of meditation is to quieten the mind and questions do the opposite to our minds.As Jim says in another post ’ Don’t learn more. Don’t think more. Don’t understand more. Just do the practices, and don’t aim to block or leap or permit or DO anything. Just sit down and say “I am” a lot. Simple. Period. And let the cosmic barber trim your hair. Less you, please.’
L&L
Dave
‘the mind can see further than the eyes’
Dave,
in that case I can see how someon would think I was mythologizing Yogani.
In the mind of someone in whome Parahamsa is mythologized, giving the opinion that Yogani is more accurate does mythologize Yogani. But I don’t agree with the mythologization of Parahamsa in the first place.
I just tried to paint what I believe is a more balanced picture of Parahamsa Y:
That’s my opinion. It’s not necessarily a very important one in itself, but my main point is that if you find little inconsistencies beteen PYs meditation instruction and Yogani’s, you should think twice before automatically choosing PYs because he is more famous, or, shall we say, ‘better mythologized’, LOL.
Dear David,
Actually Parahamsa is certainly not mythologised in my eyes as I don’t know anything about him or about many of the famous gurus as I prefer to practice than read about others practicing.I certainly don’t expect realisation by reading about someone else sat in a cave for years on end.We all find our own path and I tell my students this is the way I have been taught, if you decide to do differently by experimenting then you are responsible for the results.That doesn’t mean they are wrong if they decide to go another way , just that they take responsibility for their actions and results.
L&L
Dave
‘the mind can see further than the eyes’
I understand.
Dave said
mailed me privately and pointed out the post where you gave your opinion that Yogani was a greater meditation teacher than Paramhansa.
Yeah, the person who mailed you about that, if they thought it was a big deal, might well have a mythology about Paramhansa. There is certainly one out there…
From my point of view, I’m just saying, ‘Don’t assume that the yoga teacher about whom the bigger deal is made, is more accurate’.
I’ve gone through all of paramahansa yogananda’s lessons and started on his kriya lessons. his lessons are more comprehensive as far as describing how the world is put together and how energies flow, and how to live you life and deal with others.
But none of that really helps yoga practices. His meditation techniques take up a lot of time, and become very complicated. There is a listserver where his students communicate, and nobody is experiencing the kind of phenomena people talk about here.
Nothing against Yogananda though. I think everything he did was wonderful, and his organization is good. But the time he was alive had a whole different set of problems people were working on spiritually, and there was less ambient spiritual energy, so he didn’t have the opportunity to give us what AYP is giving us.
Ironically, I believe most of the power created by AYP is by Yogani showing us what to take away from all the multitudes of traditional yoga knowledge, and lucky for us, that is most of it!
Very well said Ether. Thank you.
Hi Ether,
And even these lessons are not needed unless one simply wants academic knowledge.Having vast knowledge of scriptures or Yogani’s lessons will not raise your levels without practice.So it is more important to be doing than talking about it.
L&L
Dave
‘the mind can see further than the eyes’
Thanks for your reply, Yogani.
Yogani said:
Oh, and thanks David for not mythologizing AYP or me. Now, excuse me while I climb back up on my pedestal.
LOL!
Hari Om
Brilliant!
Every action is by choice, the fruit we gain , we ‘earn’. We have freedom over action alone ( or our selections) never over their fruits… so say the sages.
agnir satyam rtam brhat Frank in San-Diego
I didn’t agree that that was ‘brilliant’. No-one singled out gurus here, rather someone, who had trouble with a guru (whom I expect may have been misbehaving), came here for some help and perspective, thinking it might be a good place to find it.
In any situation that can be called guru-cultic situation, if a person is harmed/wronged by a guru, it is turned back on the disciple, as if to deny or wash over wrongdoing on the part of the guru, and indicate that the disciple has merely failed in perspective, and merely needs to improve in it.
I don’t agree with that approach. The approach is in fact often tantamount to a denial of abuse, and therefore the enabling of abuse. The mythologization of the guru is really a major enabler of the abuse. My first line of help is to help them acknowledge that the mythology was incorrect: this person was never what they were promoted to be; a lie was lived. And bad things followed from that.