Carson said:
I think so, but maybe I don’t know enough about the B.E.I.Company or the time period. History isn’t as strong a suit for me as PRE-history 
Carson, I’m making a point which, while a little oblique, is I think a very strong one.
Carson said:
With institutions, especially corporations, there is one motivation only…to stay in business as long as possible/continue to grow corporate profits. There is no-one person saying “To continue to grow profits we are going to have to cross the line into indulging in immoral business practices” but this is what happens BECAUSE there is no-one person in charge saying “we can’t do this because it is wrong”. Instead there are millions of shareholders who say “we want our yearly dividends no matter the cost” and so this line is crossed without a second thought.
If you had been there in the 1600’s to take a close look at that company, and with your current mentality, I think you’d have said everything you’re now saying about the companies you see around you these days – except that they would probably have been ‘worse’ then. Basically, I think you’d have said the sky is falling because the companies, the institutions, are bringing it down.
And yet the sky didn’t fall. In fact, everything got significantly better. By almost every standard you can imagine, when you look at the history, things have improved significantly since that time of Shakespeare when companies were becoming extremely impactive economically.
So, may the next 400 years bring as many improvements as the last 400 years, when the sky started falling down due to the companies. 
Why do people have a tendancy to believe we are on the edge of a disaster when we aren’t? Do you have such a tendancy, Carson? I think that the roots of that are in an emotional disposition. While the roots are emotional, the mind seeks something to blame for the impending disaster (or presumed existing disasterous state-of-affairs) – and that thing-to-blame is the scapegoat.
Ironically, if a social-political movement is built on such a scapegoating tendancy, disaster does follow. Arguably, the French Revolution and the Russian Revolution were examples of this.
Hi David,
Sure this is one way to look at it, but you could look at a lot of things like that. Certain crime statistics, slavery, etc etc. but that doesn’t really change anything. Sure times have changed over the last 400 years, for the better in a lot of ways, but for the worse in a lot of others, and in many of those cases it is just hidden a lot more then it used to be. What percentage of people 400 years ago suffered from deabilitating drug addictions? You could make this arguement in both directions. Sure 400 years ago it was no big thing to use black people as slaves, and now we think we are a lot more civilized because slavery has been abolished. But in my opinion slavery wasn’t abolished at all. It just changed masks. We are ALL living in slavery now, not just the African Americans etc. We are slaves to a monetary system that we cannot break free of. This is perpetuated by organized religion, communism to fascism to capitalism, our education system, our penal system, multinational corporations, unruly competition and much much more. Things may seem more stable and balanced on the surface, but in reality we are in just as fragile a state as ever.
Love,
Carson 
Hi David,
I don’t think we are on the edge of disaster David. The ONLY reason I joined this thread was to say that I think it is overly optimistic to think that organized religions will have any part to play in the spiritual revolution of bringing individual spiritual practices into the mainstream. That is just plain bad business practices. I don’t think that Christianity(or any other religion) is going to start promoting pranayama, meditation and personal spiritual practices just because we want them anymore then I think that Big Oil is going to start bringing us alternative fuel sources just because we want them. They would be putting themselves out of business if they did and that is not about to happen. I don’t believe there is an impending crisis to be avoided, I think we are smack dab in the middle of crisis (and have been for at least a couple of hundred years) and noone realizes it. I don’t think that we are headed for disaster anymore then you do. I DO think that it will take disaster (basically) for anything to change, but I don’t think disaster is immanent. Sorry if I was confusing you earlier.
Love,
Carson
Hi Carson.
Human need becomes purified as consciousness expands, and that changes everything. It happens on meditation seats, and naturally moves out from there. It is stillness in action. Nothing can resist, because it is the source of all.
The guru is in you.
Hi Yogani,
I understand that human needs change as consciousness changes, but what I am saying is that until human need reaches a breaking point, nothing is going to change. When it DOES change it will happen VERY fast and will most likely be catastrophic for the majority of humanity. And organized religion will be opposed to the changes, not for them, if organized religion even lasts long enough to see the changes we are talking about.
Love,
Carson
what I am saying is that until human need reaches a breaking point, nothing is going to change.
Nothing is going to change? Nothing has changed since feudal times, when 99% of people were ruled by gangster families and had short, brutal lives and typically watched a lot of your children die on front of you from malnutrition and disease, and maybe you’d have to go to war and maybe die to defend your gangster lord if he got into a fight with another gangster lord, and if you got maimed you’d end up a beggar and die at twenty-five, and if you didn’t end up a beggar you’d die at thirty-five…
Carson, you’ve got to be kidding!
Hi Carson:
It is changing, right before our eyes. The suggestion is to keep practicing (everyone!), and be patient.
The guru is in you.
Hi David,
In regards to what we are talking about here in this topic. Not about EVRYTHING in general, come on man. What I am talking about, and I know you know this, is about organized religion’s perspective on staying in control of human spirituality. Organized religion is not about to give up it’s supposed monopoly on human spirituality just because a lot of people want them to. Like I said, that is like hoping that Big Oil is going to start implementing alternative energy sources just because we want them to, even though they are making a fortune off of us the way it is. Nothing will change (in this aspect) until human need reaches a breaking point. This has been proven historically over and over again.
Love,
Carson
Ok Yogani,
Instead of trying to convince you, perhaps you can convince me! How exactly can you know, or prove to me, that the spiritual environment is changing. Sure if you look at it from the framework of AYP it sure seems like it. But if you look at it from the perspective of the Christian church, or from a homeless person’s point of view, or any other number of perspectives, things don’t seem so rosy. How can you be sure that YOUR view of reality is any more accurate then anyone elses? (Please excuse me if my postings are seeming argumentative in anyway. This is not my intention, nor was it when I joined this thread. I just disagree with something you said early in this topic Yogani, and my expression of that disagreement has turned into this seeming arguement. Please see through the disagreement and understand that there is no emotion involved in this discussion, at least not on my end, and I am just looking for the Truth here. Please forgive me all.)
Love,
Carson
Hi YogaIsLife,
The choices we make as individuals are no longer able to make an impact the way you say they are. For example. I doubt that you want ANY company to be making WMD right? You probably see no need for them, as do I. But you pay your taxes like a regular citizen correct? So then you are paying for the purchase of WMD and for their use as well too I guess. And every dollar equals a vote. A vote that matters unlike most of our political election votes. So if your choice is NOT to make WMD, how is it then that it is your (and my)fault that they are made? Well, because you (and I) are paying for them. Why are we paying for them? Because we have to. Why do we have to? Because if we don’t it’s jail, institutions or death. Basically. The system is running itself. We have no say anymore. It is not “power to the people”. At least not right now, not without mass understanding and then mass organized revolution. And that doesn’t just “happen”.
Love,
Carson
Yogani wrote:
Beautifully put. I also believe and feel this to be true. I can see it. And you ask how can you know this for sure Carson? By feeling it, noticing it, knowing in your heart. I know this will probably sound like a lot of nonsense talk to you but it is like that. The more you meditate the more you notice. Just because meditation makes it clearer to see, but in fact it is working all around us, at this very minute, and all the time.
Try looking at it from YOUR own perspective, within your own heart, not from what you think the homeless or the Christian church or any other person’s perspectives are. Not even from your mind framework or whatever it is that you believe is right or should be right. Look within. Again, it may sound just like gibberish but it is the truth. Don’t believe anybody in fact. Do you want the truth? Do you want to know “real” reality? Than if you want it bad enough it will come to you through the power of desire. It’s true. I personally find meditation is a great way to stay closer to the truth.
Again it seems like one of those “divine paradoxes” - the more you look and know within yourself, the more clearer you will understand the outside world. IT is a beautiful thing.
Hi YogaIsLife,
Just to be clear here, there is no shortage of practicing going on over here. I won’t miss a session for work let alone something trivial, so please understand that I am practicing away. And I feel I am seeing clearer then I have ever seen before. And am able to distance myself from any feelings this seeing causes better then ever before as well. But that still doesn’t change my perspective on the fact the I personally doubt that organized religions will play any part other then adversary to the bringing about of the individual spiritual sciences to the mainstream. It would just be out and out poor business practices. That’s all I’m saying.
Doesn’t sound like gibberish at all. And nope, don’t see it as a divine paradox either. Just don’t see it as you and Yogani do from within myself is all. Maybe that’ll change. Maybe it won’t. Doesn’t matter. My only point is that organized religion will struggle against the rise of the individual spiritual sciences until that breaking point of human need is reached. It has to. If it doesn’t then it might as well already admit defeat. And that isn’t about to happen. Not without a fight. And the fight hasn’t even officially begun yet!
Love,
Carson
aum
divine kirtanman,
pranaams!
pranaams to all! beautiful posts. warmth and radiance vibrates in its wisdom here!
heart’s offerings of the sages to be set free from the opium of beliefs- choosing instead to be bliss form alight- adorning the ‘now’ mind and flowing as experience of joy.
yes, god- source without ‘religion’ is as having reached our destination and now, we are the ‘knower’ - being the same experience of prophet mohammed (aum shanthi) and all past prophets and saints. this is the age of awakening that previously was exclusive to a few and now the moment’s celebrated gift for all.
the awake that is higher consciousness as spirit enthralled in the human experience with the fire of purpose alight is the unique religion of each.
so many source names to celebrate and yet beyond name as our own alight joy!
all in this awake moment, with gratitude!
set free to be!
aum
Carson said:
Not about EVRYTHING in general, come on man. What I am talking about, and I know you know this, is about organized religion’s perspective on staying in control of human spirituality.
Carson, I think I did misinterpret you. Sorry. Your point was more targeted than I thought. Scratch those useless reams I wrote above. Oh you’ve already done it? Heh heh. Good for you.
Organized religion is not about to give up it’s supposed monopoly on human spirituality just because a lot of people want them to. Like I said, that is like hoping that Big Oil is going to start implementing alternative energy sources just because we want them to, even though they are making a fortune off of us the way it is.
I agree that it is unlikely to let go of it ‘willingly’. Powers don’t like to let their power go. But they are pragmatic at the same time. They have to adapt. As people become more aware in general, it becomes more difficult to hoodwink them. There are long, slow processes there. Slow, but very real. The loosening of the political power of the Christian Churches began centuries ago. There was A LOT of progress from then to now.
The churches of the world have their place – they belong, on the side of Balance and Awareness, as Ministers, Teachers – not, on the side of Imbalance, as Divine Intermediaries. On the side of Balance and Awareness is humility, both personal and institutional, and the keeping to domain of competence; and on the side of Imbalance, the murky waters of sacro-mythical inflation, power-seeking, and cultcraft. The churches of the world are being cajoled and shoved by realities, from the side of Imbalance to the side of Balance.
The churches are being pushed, and it is human awareness that does the pushing. I don’t think anything catastrophic needs to happen.
Hi David,
Glad you realize what I was truly talking about now. I am trying to stay away from this topic as I know it is dynamite for my soul, so I am only going to say one thing.
I agree that the loosening of the churches stronghold started happening long ago, but I do not agree that the flipover from majority of people supporting a religion to the majority of people practicing individual spiritual practices will be either slow, or painless (for the church). They have much too much invested in their belief systems to let them simply be corroded away by mere human pressure! They will resist until they are toppled (IMO). BUT this is just my opinion and this is all I should say on the matter. (I won’t even START talking about shamanism, divine intermediaries and humilty! haha. oops.)
Love,
Carson
P.S. Ever notice how the words church and crutch are so similar in spelling? I messed them up earlier and had to laugh.
KMLAPW [Kirtanman Long-Ass Post Warning]
Hi Sparkle - please note that your question is answered in the first sentence of my response. The rest of the post is more background on Sankara and GWR for anyone who has interest.
Namaste,
Kirtanman
**
Sankara actually advocates both (Pranayama and Silent Meditation), though with a clear emphasis on Pranayamic practice.
(Yogani seems to have somewhat uniquely - maybe just “uniquely” - discovered and promoted the ultra-powerful benefits which stem from an almost exact balance between the two disciplines - pranayama and silent meditation.)
For those (both students and teachers) who understand what works - some combination of pranayama, meditation, bhakti and inquiry tend to be the pillars of the given system of practices [we don’t discuss the latter all that much in AYP, but the tendency toward inquiry* is an obvious effect of the other two activities — just read through our forum posts, for evidence of that!).
*Using the term [inquiry] somewhat loosely - though I think most of us involved with AYP would say that inquiry (i.e. Who am I? What is God? Is there a “God”? Where does the Self begin? Or End?, Etc. Etc.) both drives our practices, and AYP forum participation, to a degree — and/or is an effect of them.
Likewise, bhakti (devotion) drives practices, and is an effect of them - and like many teachers, Sankara addresses this aspect subtly, and without ever using that word.
Sankara clearly gets this, and God Without Religion showcases that understanding in some VERY powerful ways, IMHO.
Flip through it at a bookstore, and/or review the GWR site - I believe you’ll see what I mean.
Personally, I don’t know that I’ll adopt ANY of the practices he recommends - only because A. AYP practices serve me quite nicely, and B. for the most part, the practices cited in GWR are very “entry level”.
Sankara very much presents it all in an Open Source way - i.e. the key is to turn within, and become aware of the extent of your cerebrospinal energy flow, and the amount of energy available to it - and [KEY - to AYP and GWR practices] techniques for increasing the amounts of energy available for our cerebrospinal evolution.
VERY IMPORTANT:
(And Yes, smiling is very important – but what I mean by the smiley is that I’m being emphatic is a very good-natured way … )
GWR is not a replacement for AYP — NOR is it promoted as such.
GWR addresses two key points:
*The Kingdom of Heaven is within You - as that well-known AYP group leader from a couple thousand years ago, in the Middle East, said in one of his Lessons.
*When we realize this (The Kingdom of Heaven is within You), it will help us to adjust our outlook and behavior in the world around us, and therefore positively affect all of humanity (via either small ripples, or larger ones).
GWR does an excellent job of illustrating how the world became like it is today (including the negative effects of organized religion, and why the hold of religion is so powerful, for so many people), how societies cycle, and various suggestions for how we can contribute to the greater good.
Therefore, I see AYP & GWR as perfect compliments to one another - AYP as the “Owner’s Manual” for our internal practices, GWR for our “external” life in society (not in any restrictive ways, in the case of either - but as powerful pointers and sets of guidelines that can be powerfully beneficial).
Cheers & Namaste,
Kirtanman
PS - Sankara mentions that he was an ascetic - I don’t see any current public reference to this, but he was very open about it as recently as 2002 or so: he was a monk with SRF (Self-Realization Fellowship) - the group started by Paramahansa Yogananda. I was involved for a while with Ananda (the offshoot started by Swami Kriyananda), and can say that this likely has a lot to do with the pranayama emphasis that Sankara has, in his teachings – but it’s probably a 70/30 split, or even 60/40 – whereas AYP is basically 50/50 – but the differences between the two systems are not that great.
Meditation and pranayama is not a unique discovery. Not taking anything away from Yogani, he has assembled a nice curriculum here. However, pranayama and meditation as a combined practice is ancient and diverse. TMS