Now, that’s what I’m talking about. As the Marines would say (or Al Pacino in Scent of a Woman): Oorah!
Dear Carson,
because I feel drawn to your honesty and I like you very much =P (yeah where does this come from?^^), here some word-blocks for you:
Escape or escaping is a godcheat-word. Don’t fall on that one 
Can you escape something and if yes, are you doing that escaping? It’s not in your hands beloved friend, I know the fooling is endless, yet wanted to remeber you.
With three different types of “prctices” I came to the same wall where it looks like you have to choose between your “mother/father/children/friends/loved ones/even more deeply -> body-mind” and “That”.
It always looked so dramatic and intense and so important, like god was cheating you ultra big times Beloved friend, also don’t fall on that one
2 of these 3 systems were prana-meditation based, one was awareness itself. The latter was the best in terms of seeing/knowing/being absolute truth. And still god managed to perfectly fool and cheat me with the word-blocks above and many more =)
The double-cheat is, god does like there is you (1) having choices (2). It looks like, it looks like there is no escape from giving up EVERYTHING. No matter the “method” =P
You are allowed to be fooled by “possible future”-godmind-cheats, yet you are also invited, out of love, to know right now, the god-cheat.
Hi Holy 
Well thank you, I like you very much too. 
I’ve had a bit of trouble understanding exactly what you are saying with this post so bear with me as I stumble my way through a response. Please remember that everything I say is coming from my own understanding and may or may not be applicable to you or anyone else. I am only speaking my own truth here.
Ultimately there is no escaping. But in “subjective reality,” in the reality in which time and space exist, yes indeed there is escaping. And if you don’t like that word (not sure what a “godcheat” is) perhaps you will resonate more with the word “postponing.” There is always a possibility to postpone the deep looking at ourselves.
As far as who is doing the escaping/postponing, well, I can only answer that I, the body/mind, am.
It is both in our hands and it is not. We are being held in the hands of Life, but we are also responsible for ourselves. It may seem like a paradox, but that is only on the surface.
I’m sorry, but you’ll have to restate this… I have no clue what you are saying here. Sorry. 
Again, no idea what you are talking about here. If you can clarify I would greatly appreciate it.
I can only speak for myself, but I have no interest in “absolute truth” anymore. I am only interested in truth. Truth for me, in this moment. And truth for me in this moment is that I am in a body/mind complex, typing you a message on a computer. That is truth for me in this moment.
Again, I’m not sure I understand you. First, I have no idea what “god” is. Second, everything is already given up. I don’t “own” anything. Not this body, not this life, not my family, not my thoughts, nothing.
No idea what a godcheat is. If you explain that perhaps your message will make more sense to me, I don’t know. As far as a “possible future” is concerned, I don’t have a clue. Life is a complete and utter mystery to me and I am in constant awe of it. In fact, while writing this message I had someone here at Kripalu come into this room and lay his entire life story on me which reflected my own with such intense similarity that if you read this in a book or saw it on a movie you would likely think it was unbelievable and too far fetched to even be enjoyable. I couldn’t have forseen it in a million years. I’ve had situations like this happen 3 times in the last week alone. I have no idea where Life is going, no idea what it has in mind, but I can tell you with utter certainty that whatever happens, I will embrace it the best I can.
With love,
Carson
Wow…Nice!..love your contributions to the forum!
yes …
Dear Carson those 2 sentences summarize perfectly the understanding that is happening over here too…aaarrrgh at first this is terrifying…it really shakes you cause the erronous believes that you own your body, that you can plan your life etc…are so deeply
rooted…it is like going to the dentist to pull out a sick tooth! but will keep going to that dentist no matter what “happens” 
Well you can plan your life, the mind is free to do that, it’s free to create. The problem comes when the expectation doesn’t match the result and particularly when the expectation does match the result
Your body does belong to you. It is in your care. It doesn’t make a difference if it’s illusory.
Hey Karl
Like I said, I’m only speaking from where I am, and I’m happy you are speaking from where you are too! But for me, I don’t feel as though I own this body. I didn’t “purchase” it… if I had I would have got a model that could still grow hair. But just because there is no feeling of owning the body doesn’t mean I don’t feel a need to take care of it. As I said in another thread here just yesterday, the body/mind is the vehicle to “That” so it is imperitive that it is treated like the temple it is. But to me, the body feels as though it is on “loan.”
Love!
Carson
P.S> I don’t see the body as illusary at all.
Yeah, you did purchase it, you just can’t remember. You were too tight to buy the hair longevity package that’s all
It comes down to what is meant by owning, let’s say it’s more of a loan, responsibility is still on you. Mine is definitely not an illusion, it’s just as real as anything else. Of course if you believe everything else is unreal, then it’s just as unreal as that I don’t make distinctions or, own the rights to reality. Stuff is fine just as and how it is without tinkering mentally with its current condition. If I can’t be entrusted with this body then I certainly shouldn’t be trusted with anything else
If I am a bubble of pure awareness then strangely it doesn’t seem any different to the way I seem to look and feel. So I am cool with that too.
Cheese sandwich please. Sorry we only have ham. Oh ham will do fine. 
Ps love where we are all at right now. A real chaotic melting pot of change. It’s like a rainbow, challenging without ego getting in the way, just inching forward and understanding.
Hi Carson,
[quote]
I’ve had a bit of trouble understanding exactly what you are saying with this post so bear with me as I stumble my way through a response.
[/quote] Don’t worry, it owned me too, it was for both of us, a door to instant knowing-seeing, a momentarily “love you both”-from-god =)
God is just a word, you can replace it with life or all or one. When I use god, it hints to the more personal, playful mode of that
The god-cheat is the double-cheat of the other post.
[quote]
With three different types of “practices” I came to the same wall where it looks like you have to choose between your “mother/father/children/friends/loved ones/even more deeply -> body-mind” and “That”.
quote:
[/quote]
</blockquote id=“quote”> Ok let us get more concrete, there were even more than three occurances, but to make it “short”^^:
Whenever any well practiced practice came to that edge where it seems like your most valued and beloved ones start working against your practice, I stopped that practice. One was a pretty nice girl, the other reason was my own mother, the third was this body-mind here whining as getting closer and closer to a complete stop. And some more.
Ever read the Bhagavad Gita? Krishna (the pure bliss consciousness) tells Arjuna (the mind aka god-cheat) to kill his beloved family =P Arjuna brings forth endless reasons not to do this^^ Krishna explains detailedly why his reasons are cheaty, not really true.
My friend, beyond this I was many times witness of the god-play as god plays. He is the super big cheater and player at the same time. Don’t be fooled, you will be tested deeper than deep when it comes to get to know the truth. Every good practice will lead you to this wall or edge of where it starts getting really nice and at the same time where you will be tested very trickily, with your beloved ones. My friend, your bliss is the best for all. You don’t have to choose between the two, this is just a trick[quote]
I have no idea where Life is going, no idea what it has in mind, but I can tell you with utter certainty that whatever happens, I will embrace it the best I can.
[/quote]
http://www.allaboutyou.com/cm/allaboutyou/images/pu/or_80e2779c12245168043107.jpg
Love
Holy: I was initially unsure what you were referring to as well, and your perspective is much more clear to me now. I have come across that ‘principle’ before from another source, and was not aware it was also (initially) part of the Bhagavad Gita. No doubt you must have been left with no alternatives whatsoever and had to make real sacrifices in order to pursue your path. I can only hope with the greater flexibility built into AYP such barriers are less likely encountered, and give way with wisdom and patience.
AumNaturel:
I’m sorry your thread changed its route a little bit ^^
To make it complete, it was 3 times alone with AYP ^^ AYP has its advantage and disadvantage of efficiency. The practices themselves do not stabilize and smooth themselves out enough and need to be stabilized with careful optimizations of your daily life. What works within AYP is perfect application of self-pacing, but it needs patience and trust and may not be too easy in every situation for everyone. If you know through direct experience that the practices work on many levels, then self-pacing can become more easy even if it gets to a level of near-zero-feedback, meaning you don’t see much good out of it for long long times.
Other practice attemps here (most for many months, some even for 1-2 years) included overdone kriya yoga practice as instructed from www.kriyayoga.com , then an own compilation of practices mostly including extreme nadi sodhana, bhastrika + kumbhaka + mudras/bandhas, then directly remaining as the witness, remaining aware of the energy of the body,… the deeper I look, the more attemps and combinations come out, so to sum it up: whenever the intensity grew too much, unimaginable friction started, may it be within the physical body, or outside of it.
The solution in all cases was optimizing “practice amounts, quality of food/water/air/sun, and not being cheated by the tricks and reasons to favor something else over the best anymore, no matter the price”. If you persist for some time, god will smile and all will be fine…till the next even more dramatic event =P … Without the motivating and encouraging words and grace of gurus, masters and in my case real-live meetings with some, the journey seems nearly undoable. The inspiration of seeing accomplished people in my opinion is priceless. Independant of your following that path/technique.
Wish you all the best,
Love
Hi Aum, this is in response to your post on entitled “Horrible Electromagnetic…”
I don’t see the “relentless confounding of yoga and drugs.” Where is it that you see this?
You even assert, in your first sentence, that drugs have no role in alleviating purificatory symptoms. That is reckless and wrong.
In fact, I have been taking several types of drugs over the past two months, precisely for purificatory symptoms. These drugs have enabled me to live a somewhat normal life during this time period, where otherwise I would have been in debilitating agony.
I can also attest that even a beer or two, as I mentioned in the other thread, will sometimes help in these cases. I should say, a beer or two can be the difference between 8 hours of sleepless torture at night… or a fine night’s sleep.
I understand that your intention is to give novice-level advice. That is fine of course. But in the process I urge you not to aggressively dismiss other points of view in favor of a black vs. white dichotomy, especially considering that you admit that your experience level of both drugs and ecstatic conductivity is lacking.
Hi tonights the night,
I see it posted everywhere on this forum and in other places, and do not find it necessary to go through the topics in order to bring out the many instances where drugs are intertwined with yoga practices. I am open to evidence from reputable sources that promote the use of psychoactives as an indispensable element for a yoga sadhana, much in the same way casual comments pass on and perpetuate the belief that they are. I respect the lifestyle choice of responsible drug use, and based on any of my comments so far, I find it curious the word “aggressively dismiss” is used, especially when I inquire and seek to clarify what is yoga and what is something else (a lifestyle choice, a medical treatment, a belief system, etc.). My view on the topic should be fairly clear, and I see no problem sharing it much like I see no problem with other lifestyle choices being promoted. However, I do want to inquire into this conviction that comes up often enough, that somehow yogic methods have any direct relationship with drugs with respect to the aims of yoga (union). Both modes of action of yoga and drugs involve a nearly impossible set of variables to draw any simple conclusions. However, one thing I do find certain, is that the methods of yoga are effective and have been effective without the use of drugs. Moreover, there is evidence that drugs can actually hinder the effects of yoga by adding samskaras (obstructions in mind and body) and adverse physiological effects (ex. impaired motivation from an altered reward system) that may be at odds with maintaining a yoga practice.
It is great to hear you have found relief from your symptoms using alcohol in your particular case. For someone using a system like AYP, cutting back at the first sign of trouble in daily life, along with ongoing grounding, are what is recommended. Should such symptoms arise out of proportion to the practice they are doing (and therefore more likely as a result of innate instability), the first recommendation is to seek medical treatment and to re-consider practice as it is not a direct means to resolve such problems.
Again, as I have mentioned in the other topic in reply, I have never said or implied ‘drugs have no role in alleviating purification symptoms’ but I did make it clear that such methods are not part of yoga, in a reply to someone experiencing spontaneous symptoms not as a result of any yoga practice. I am entitled to my own qualified point of view, and attempting to clarify methods of yoga with other methods (drugs) is more akin to such a dichotomy when regarded as ‘reckless and wrong’.
I appreciate your raising another great point often found at the heart of the matter: regarding lack of experience with drugs as a way of discrediting points of view contrary to drug use. The proposition ‘you’ll never know until you try’ goes both ways: you’ll never know unless you do yoga without any prior drug use. I raised this point with the idea that you’ll never know what’s an authentic experience unless you do yoga without drugs or without having used them in the past. Authentic is used with respect to an observer who compares the insight of a yogi to those in a drug-induced state. I’m not clear what my lack of ecstatic conductivity, or even absence of any overloading symptoms at that, has to do with drugs, yoga, the lessons, or anything talked about so far. Drugs can certainly mimic many such symptoms, which raises my original question, which is more authentic? Who has more credibility in the eyes of a beginner?
Thank you for the discussion so far.
Holy, it was very inspiring to read your journey as it is unfolding. All the best to you and your path as well.
Hey Aum,
Thank you for your detailed response.
I infer that you have made the choice to see yoga as something static, as if it has a definition outside of “union”. As if things definitely are or are not yoga.
In my mind, yoga is not something that can be clearly defined, other than to say it is the process and practice of discovering/becoming oneself.
Can intoxicating drugs be a part of yoga? Absolutely. So can physical exercise, diet, even mortification. Yes, they are lifestyle choices as well. I suppose the labels depend upon the perspective.
I am not an arbiter of yoga, but I have found out a lot over the years; daily unity, silence, liberation and ecstasy included. I feel as if I’m as qualified as anyone to comment on the matter. You too, will have your own opinions according to your own experience.
In my eyes, if I were the beginner, I would be inclined to trust judgments based on first-hand experience from those that have sowed and reaped, rather than judgments made through intellectual exercise.
Well, there are various methods each from a certain background, along with newer variants on those same methods, all of which can collectively be regarded as yoga practices. Other methods making use of drugs fall under a different category, perhaps Shamanism, or an eclectic approach. Just because, as a whole, they share a similar goal, and a common nervous system, does not mean the term Yoga should be reduced to a meaningless word any more than words themselves and the concepts they try to contain be done away with altogether.
A judgment based on someone’s experience other than your own would still be an intellectual exercise. There is certainly a place for trust, however, trust and inquiry are not mutually exclusive. If that were true, we’d be living and propagating a myth, a deeper illusion than the one being sought to uncover by use of various methods, one of which certainly is Yoga.
Precision is necessary when trying to describe the means towards Self-realization (or any other ishta chosen), and so arbitrarily diluting one thing for another does no justice to the methods as they were intended by their author, be it ‘the shoulders of Giants’ or the specific path that has been uncovered here. Where in that do drugs fall? Should Yoga cater to include drugs, and is that really necessary? Questions for open discussion, as I don’t have those answers beyond what’s already proposed so far.
Hi Aum
I agree that words shouldn’t be reduced to the point of being meaningless, and there certainly is an important place for precise terms with definite meanings.
The problem I have with assigning yoga with a definite meaning is this: Yoga is an ancient system of disparate approaches to union with self and god, and there is little or no agreement among contemporary groups on what constitutes yoga and what does not.
For example, the most common answer one would hear to the question, what is yoga?, is that it is asana practice. Is this any more or any less correct than the view of the common sadhu, who may smoke cannabis as part of his yoga practice?
I do not see an obvious answer to the question, what is yoga? My view is simply that yoga is the path to union, and that there are certain practices that have come from that path.
Does that path include intoxicating drugs? It does for some. I personally feel that certain intoxicating drugs, used with great care and in moderation, can add to spiritual experience. I can testify to this. They can also take away from it. I see great similarity between the use of props in asana practice, and the respectful use of some drugs in other practices.
I appreciate this excellent discussion on the matter, and I respect your opinions, which you have obviously formulated with great care.
I do think that, on the whole, you have a great point as it applies to the AYP system. Beginners should be given easily digestible instructions in order to avoid pitfulls and to progress more easily than those that lead the way. But it is not necessary to obfuscate the truth of the matter in order to do this.
To me, yoga is much bigger then Patanjali’s Yoga Sutras"… yoga is much bigger then AYP or any specific text, doctrine, or perspective… To me, yoga is Life, and saying that something is not “yogic” or cannot be used as a method for yoga/union is missing some of the bigger picture. Everything can be used/done with the intention of coming to a deeper understanding of oneself. Just my perspective, not looking for anyone to agree or disagree, just putting it out there.
As a side note, it can be mentioned that there are entire “yogic paths” that regularly utilize cannabis, alcohol and opiates (maybe more) as a way worshiping/communing/coming to a deeper knowing of the Divine. The Aghori’s come to mind right off the bat, but I know there are others too.
From the wiki article on Aghori’s;
“The Aghoris are not to be confused with the Shivnetras, who are also ardent devotees of Shiva but do not indulge in extreme ritual worship practices known to some extent as tamasic. (Rituals involving some or all of the following: meat eating, alcohol drinking, consumption of beverages and foods with opiates – hallucinogens and Cannabis products as key ingredients (non-Aghora sadhus have also been known to use Cannabis) – cannibalism, residing in cremation grounds, and taking part in tantric sexual rituals.)”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aghori
Personally I find it much more helpful to myself and others when I try not to write anything off for any reason. In my experience, whenever I completely write something off as not helpful/useful Life has a funny way of putting me in situations that prove me wrong, often in dramatic and uncomfortable ways. More importantly, what I’ve noticed is that whenever I find that I am closed off to someone else’s path and label it as “not valid,” I will almost always (perhaps even always and I’m just too dense to see some of the lessons) find myself in situations that show me just how valid any path can be.
Love!
Carson
In much the same way, I find it worthwhile sometimes to put some assumptions to the test, as opposed to accepting them at face value just because a myth has been repeated by so many over and over. It is in this case the mixing of drugs with yoga practices, especially in a way that promotes their use as somehow being necessary to the path, while hardly mentioning the drawbacks of doing so. One such example can be seen from Ennio Nimis in Kriya Yoga: synthesis of a personal experience, p.154.
As I have said, yogic methods do not and have not required the use of drugs towards its sole purpose of union. There is no synthetic replacement for the practices no matter how much the relatively newly isolated compounds along with their proponents who try to pass them off for having a role repeat the same message unquestioningly. If such a system emerges, then it might as well be called something along the lines of -techno or -psychedelic and leave yoga for those who apply to uncover the innate qualities of their body and mind in the same way as did those who discovered them. This isn’t against the application of drugs in yoga, but it is a call against those who jump at such a proposition with eyes wide shut.
Reputed scholars can entertain the ideas that some external substance may have had a role, and even go as far as raising such implications as found in that quote as a valid intellectual exercise based on available material. I would imagine, however, that practitioners who have been at it for a long time recognize such ‘soma’ as being intrinsic to the body, and its generation and cultivation to be entirely independent of external agents and substances.
First off, thank you Carson for contributing your thoughts, you make great points and I wholeheartedly agree. In particular, I have found the same as you, that Life puts my judgments directly in my path.
Aum, in response to your latest post I would say that I don’t believe that you addressed my previous post.
Furthermore, I simply do not see the evidence that people are trying to pass off a drug-centered shortcut to liberation in place of “traditional” yogic practices. Where is the evidence that this movement exists?
I think it’s undeniable that intoxicating drugs have played a role in yoga for many. In addition, I recognize that it has been a part of my path, if a small part. If you feel it is superior to walk your path drug-free, that is your choice, but I would question what the term “drug-free” means.
Respectfully, I do not see the substance of your argument as anything other than: I know the one true and pure path of yoga, and it is the only legitimate one, all others are folly.
I’m interested in hearing your response, both to this post and my last.