Namaste Friends…
Lately I have been finding that during my practices I am in a deep state of the witness (at least that is what I think I am experiencing) and that most of my practices now seem automatic. But yesterday during my afternoon session I realized that perhaps I am either not actually in the witness state or that there must be different “levels” or “stages” of the witness. What has become common for me now is to come into my practices and by the time I am halfway through my 25 minute asana set I am in what I thought to be “the witness state”. I find that I am not “doing” anything anymore and that my practices are “doing me”. I can sort of relax and watch myself “going through the motions”. Pranayam is especially powerful for me in this state. All the mudras and bandhas happen automatically, the breathing happens without any intention, my session automatically ends at the right time without watching the clock, and I can just sit and watch everything that is happening to my body with calm enjoyment. But yesterday I realized that there must be different levels of the witness state because I noticed that I will only be witnessing certain aspects of what is going on and am not witnessing “the whole”. I will use an example to explain what I mean by this…Yesterday I am doing pranayam and I am just watching my body doing all the motions…but at one point I realized I wasn’t breathing anymore. I was in a kumbhaka (with breath mostly inhaled…my lungs were a little more then half full) and have NO idea when this happened or how long I had been “holding” my breath. So obviously I wasn’t “totally” witnessing my situation…I was witnessing an ASPECT of what was happening since I did not notice myself stop breathing…So my confusion I guess is around whether or not I am deluding myself into thinking that I am experiencing the witness state. Is it possible to be witnessing only certain aspects of one’s situation in this state, or if you are truly experiencing life as the witness are you aware of everything happening around you? Sorry if this seems like a stupid question. Thanks for any input.
Love,
Carson 
The witnessing “Self” is not necessarily omniscient, and therefore does not necessarily experience everything or every momentary aspect of the small “s” self performing its activities. In other words, yes–you may be experiencing full silent witnessing of the small bounded self by the large unbounded Self and still not “see” everything which is happening to, for instance, your breathing or your motions. The automatic-ness of experience is a big clue, and, as you described it, "I find that I am not “doing” anything anymore and that my practices are “doing me” is also a definite validation of the witness. Enjoy and don’t analyze so much–Being is easier than doing!
Michael
Thanks Micheal.
Love,
Carson
After this afternoons meditation I have a new question in this matter…
It seems to me that it is not possible to have any “intentions” while in the witness state. So that would make everything (not just yoga) done in this state “automatic” right? Is this a flawed view? Thanks for any input.
Love,
Carson
This is interesting. I know Byron Katie says after she started questioning her thoughts, she would hear things like “do the dishes” or “get up” and think “why not?” and just do them, instead of her old response, “Ohhhh…I can’t do that, I don’t want to…”. But it must have been her thought, even if she didn’t identify with it.
Definitely some levels of Witnessing. Yogani talks about it in some of the lessons or books. Some other teachers were pretty hip to actually mention it.
One way of categorizing is by type of activity and how much it requires mental awareness or focus. Thus, starting an activity is not witnessed at first since you are interested in its result, else why start it?. Likewise with the end of an activity. However, the middle of an activity is easier to Witness. For example, I usually Witness my walking and other simple things. Further on, very complex actions and repertoirs will be witnessed, even the experience of emotions and pain. Not unlike the experience when one is involved in a traumatic event or emergency or even ‘acting’.
For me the only time I seem to be in the witness state is during my practices and at this point I only really start the first three or four postures and then just “sit” back and watch myself go through my whole routine. Everything else is happening without any intention. Even my timing is all automatic. I don’t use a clock any more. So I guess there is intention before the witness starts happening, the intention to do my practices, but once I am “into” my session and the witness is present, there is no more intention. You guys are saying there are levels of the witness where you CAN have intentions?
Love,
Carson
Here is the great misunderstood fallacy regarding witnessing. It does not start or stop, become present and then absent. This “Witness” is always present, always engaged, always the basis, the foundation of our self. Only when we feel we are “witnessing” is when we become actively, consciously aware of that aspect of self all along. It’s always there, but we seldom notice it because its silence is normally overshadowed by the noise of our activity. When, through meditation, silence becomes more firmly established in life, then we begin to notice it. And where do we first notice it? In the silence of meditation, where the noise will not dim it. This is a very slippery thing to grasp at first, but when we begin to witness active life and the depths of sleep, then we get a clearer appreciation of how it works and what it’s really like. And so in reality, there are no levels, just the flat silent unmanifest atman which is the witness. It is only our experience of that which has these levels. As for Intention from that level, the Absolute has no intentions–it has no “doing”, and is only “Being.” It is the shadow of ego which is “doing our intentions” as it were, which remains attached to or involved with what happens. That is sufficient to allow life to be lived.
Michael
Hi Micheal,
You could really call this semantics Brother. Half dozen of one 6 of another. I know what you are saying though.
Thanks Micheal…appreciate the input. My experience seems to suggest the same.
Love,
Carson
mikkiji:
I agree with Carson, mostly semantics. The question was based on the little ‘self’ cognition change to give rise to the witness experience.
But, of course, you raise important aspects of the total concept. Perhaps the term ‘levels’ is not applicable, maybe how does it get en cultured into our cognitive style?
It’s a fascinating concept. What is happening in the brain to give rise to this? How does it relate to the psychosis regarding Disassociation? How does one differentiate? Maybe its not neural network based since minute amounts of psychedelics can mimic or reproduce the experience?
As to intentions when one is witnessing? Most of the time the usual brain chatter is still present, though not overwhelming, and one can formulate plans or respond to unburnt desires.
I also found that Intentions come from others or for others. When your hurtling down a raging river, the boulders on the way, others, divert the stream to send you here or there. When you struggle against these currents, fail to surrender, fear death, you forget to enjoy the ride.
Hi Carson,
you should stay with your experiences. You say, sometimes there is witnessing of my body doing all this stuff alone. Sometimes you are not in that mode of watching and seemingly more involved in doing. Sometimes you witness little things happening, sometimes more. If you take it that simple, you can easily say there are levels of witnessing in terms of: being aware of some more or less information per moment. Sometimes you witness the coming and going thoughts + your bodily movements at the same time, sometimes one thing is more dominant and the other less. This kind I would call relative awareness of the moment.
As it seems, you have some kind of a recollection of this change in awareness level, what could mean that there is a deeper much more suptle witnessing happening, that allows you to say: it was like that in that moment and like that in another moment. More awareness here, less there etc. This change seems also to be witnessed.
On the other hand, for me, it is god cheating you moment for moment on a very high level =P the moments you are witnessing something, where is the location point of the witnesser? For me it was a very long time (and still is very very often) directly within the head behind the thoughts. But if awareness in the head areas grow, at least it happened like that many times for me, it’s like there is no witnesser at all, this is just the biggest fake ever produced by the senses directing some kind of observer within the head area. The thoughts play the same game too. And all this very convincing, that the one you are is there or something like that. Very hard to describe, if the location of the observer is delusioned by high silent awareness… yeah, hard to go on with words… god is the best tricker ever ^^
Hi Holy… 
Yes, when we talk about “the witness state” like that it is easy to see that there are “levels” of awareness…but what I am calling the “witness” in this thread, is a very distinct state of being. I think there is likely levels of witnessing with the mind, and that is what you are describing above, but what I am trying to understand is really whether or not there are “levels” of “THE witness state”. The one with NO mind. The one where there is ONLY watching. To me it seems like there is an ability within the witness state to either “hyper focus” or “widen the perspective”. If that makes any sense.
Yes indeed. There can be witnessing with the mind, and there can be Witnessing. These seem to me to be completely different. But the level of “awareness” doesn’t seem to really change in EITHER state. This seems confusing to me and I know I will probably never truly “understand”. One of those paradoxes that I will just have to let go of I’m sure 
.
Not quite sure I get this. How so?
There is no location. It is not bound to anything. At least not for me.
Perhaps this is an even deeper “level” then I have experienced because I don’t recognize this at all…
I don’t know about God being the best tricker ever, but words are definitely inadequate for describing spiritual states that’s for sure!! Thanks for conversing.
Love,
Carson
when I go to the beach, if I stand on the beach at sea level I cannot witness the fullness of the wave, for the bottom of it is blocked out by the whitewater of the wave in front of it. If I stand on a catwalk about ten feet above sea level I am able to witness more of the wave. I also like to witness the sunset from a higher level so I can see over the trees and witness the sun set on the horizon.
Hi Carson
Yes.
I call it “zoom-depthing-in”…it happens of itself…
As for witnessing with the mind…here this is simply the attention. Attention wanders, while witnessing does not. It is possible to watch the minds attention on an object.
Hi Brother Neil…
I see what you are saying Neil, but with the Witness I don’t seem to be bound by my normal perceptual limitations. I don’t think this is the full widened perspective that is described by yogi’s like Paramahansa when he is touched by Sri Yukteswar and his perception is no longer limited to his body and he can percieve things that are a great distance away, but it seems as though there are levels to this “sense” and that the Witness is an early level of this ability to view things at a distance (Don’t know if this sense if called clairvoyance, or what). Perhaps I am completely mixing up two totally different things…I don’t know for sure. What I DO know for sure, is that while in “the Witness state” my perception is not limited to my body, and I feel as though I could stop choosing to percieve the actions that my body is basically “unconsciously” doing (or doing on auto pilot), and could move my awareness to another area altogether and be percieving something else while my body continues on as it would if I was still putting my attention there. In your example this would look like this…
I am sitting on the beach in meditation…the witness state arrives and I am just watching myself repeat the mantra and am not actually consciously causing this anymore. From this “vantage” point I can see the waves crashing on the shore but cannot see the ocean behind it. I decide I would like a better vantage point so I shift my awareness ten feet above myself…my meditation continues as it would if nothing had changed…but now I can see the ocean even though my body has not moved an inch. This is what I mean when I say that in the Witness state I do not seem to be bound by my normal preceptual limitations. Hope this makes a little sense and isn’t complete babble.
Love,
Carson
Hi Katrine…
Yes.
I call it “zoom-depthing-in”…it happens of itself…
As for witnessing with the mind…here this is simply the attention. Attention wanders, while witnessing does not. It is possible to watch the minds attention on an object.
"zoom-depthing-in" eh? :wink: :wink: Just the other day I had this happen of itself in a very extreme manner. In the middle of meditation, while Witnessing the process, I suddenly found myself INSIDE my body....basically wandering around with my awareness inside my body cavity. Now, this has happened before for me, but it has only ever happened on a LARGE dose of ketamine. This used to be one of my favorite K trips actually. I would even do it consciously...taking tours of my internal organs while tripping. But this time I was not on drugs of ANY kind let alone Ketamine, and it was just as vivd, just as real, and actually a bit more unnerving because it was quite unexpected. Yesterday I had a similar experience but going the opposite direction. I'm in meditation and all of a sudden my awareness is floating around outside of my body and it was free to roam while my body continued to meditate as it was. I could still "feel" the mantra vibrating in my awareness even though it was no longer attached to my body. I didn't want to get caught up in scenery, or lose the meditation as my focus of attention so I chose to come back a little closer to my body and conitinue watching it happen. But it seemed as though if I wanted I could have completely left my house and gone on an "awareness adventure" while my practices sort of "happened without me". Have you had this experience? Is this still the Witness state or is this something else? Not that labelling things makes any difference, I'm just curious. (stupid mind :wink: ) Love, Carson :+1:
Hi Carson
Amazing Carson…have seen inside the body, but not in vivid 3d like here…that’s great
Have you asked: Who is aware of this “wandering around with my awareness”?
No and yes. Everything is always happening without the me. The me never does anything. It just thinks so…But the really funny thing is that neither does awareness do anything…lol… Everything happens of itself …lol…LOL… 
…LOL…I am always in stiches when coming to this …LOL…lol…OMG Carson…thank you for that…
So…lol…am trying to say that life always happens…just like that…the doership-thinking just gets in the way of perceiving it…that’s all.
I experienced OBE’s when a child…and did roam…off the bed…hovering in the ceiling…watching the body lying there…gliding out through the closed window…above the electric tram chords…the trees…floating past all the fancy figures on the roof facades…and the freedom of the immense expanse of being free of the physical body was fantastic…but these experiences stopped.
So…I know nothing of the astral body (I don’t even know if that is what is called the “subtle body”…Ask Christi…he will know )…know nothing of the causal body…I am sorry but i cannot advise you here, Carson…since I don’t travel like that …other than sometimes in bed…
All I can say is that even what you call the “awareness adventure”…is taking place within THAT. What is aware of the adventuring?..what is aware of deciding to “stay closer to the body”?.. Stay with that…stay still when meditating…if roaming happens…don’t log on …but stay still…gently come back to the mantra with the attention (like you did)…as you said you could still feel the mantra vibrating in the space…come back to that…
…roaming can always be enjoyed later…when the substratum of it all is identified with…
Sorry…can’t advise you better, Carson
Let’s hope someone else chimes in
Maybe I understand this a little better.
Like I watch myself type theses words and get involved in a discussion. I watch myself choose what to do next as if from a distance.
I never really noticed that before, so it’s not until it is pointed out that I realise I am doing this…have I always done this ?? or is this caused by DM ?
Good day Katrine…Sorry it took me so long to respond to this, I missed it somehow…sorry.
Amazing Carson…have seen inside the body, but not in vivid 3d like here…that’s great
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It was very similar to one of my favorite trips when I was doing Ketamine every night. I used to get high and then watch my heart beating, my lungs inflating and deflating, study how all the organs “fit” together, etc etc… But there are a few differences that intrigue me. Ketamine is classified as a “dissociative anaesthetic” and there are only 3 drugs in this catagory…Ketamine, PCP and DXM (dextro-methorphan-hydrobromide which is the active ingredient in most cough syrups, hence the names Robottussin “DM” and the likes) and Ketamine is still used today as an anaesthetic for children and small animals. Ketamine makes it so you don’t feel your body at all, and doctors can then do invasive surgeries. Well, what I noticed in this particular experience, is that unlike on a Ketamine trip where the awareness leaves the body in the form of a ball of white light/consciousness and can no longer “feel” the body, while in SBP my awareness was not “attached” to the body, but I could still “feel” the body. I could still feel the energy going up and down the sushumna, I could still “feel” everything, yet my awareness was inside my body cavity experiencing things from there. I also did not percieve my awareness as a white ball of light. I couldn’t “see” my awareness like on a K trip. On Ketamine I was always able to “see” my awareness. I could take a step back from the awareness and become aware of the awareness. I don’t know how valid this experience is since I was on drugs
, but in SBP I just WAS the awareness and was not able to percieve it as seperate from my consciousness, if that makes ANY sense 
.
Yes I have inquired into this, but have never come to a satisfactory answer. I am still searching for the answer to this question.
No and yes. Everything is always happening without the me. The me never does anything. It just thinks so…But the really funny thing is that neither does awareness do anything…lol… Everything happens of itself …lol…LOL… …LOL…I am always in stiches when coming to this …LOL…lol…OMG Carson…thank you for that…
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Haha… You didn’t really answer my question though.
Have you ever had the experience of the awareness not being attached to anything and is free to roam as it pleases, confined by no physical body? I don’t mean have you tried to make this happen, but has this happened “of itself”?
So true. 
Yes…this sounds very familiar…This is what I am talking about. Do you remember when these OBE’s happened, if you could percieve the “shape” and “color” of your “awareness” or were you just “being” your awareness. Were you able to have the “awareness watching awareness” experience? I am really curious about this. (I know, mind trappings 
)
I really don’t care to define anything, I just care to validate that these experiences aren’t straight up “mind trickery” I guess. I don’t really care if what I am experiencing is being experienced as the “astral body” or the “causal body” or whatever, I just want to be sure that this is just scenery along the way and not my mind trying to trick me into thinking I am somewhere I am not.
The weird thing is Katrine, that I am never “away” from anything despite the fact that my awareness is no longer attached to the physical body. I am still in total awareness of everything happening to my person. Even though I could be in the next room watching TV while my body continues on with it’s practices. (not that I would do that, just that I think this is possible ) What I mean is, despite the fact that I may be watching my heart beating from inside my chest cavity, I am still doing, and feeling SBP(or the mantra) happening without any effort. It just continues and “I” can just BE. I don’t know much about being “THAT” and I don’t understand or have much personal experience with being aware of this that is aware, so I guess I can’t really say what “is aware of the adventuring”.
Yeah I agree. I’m not too concerned with going on “adventures” during my practices, I was mostly just wondering if this actually is the Witness state or if I am just fooling myself.
Don’t be sorry, your advice is always well headed and greatly appreciated. Thank you and much love.
Love,
Carson