What we are regards Self, a lingering conjecture.
Adamant
Totally agree (not that it matters at all 
).
Love.
we are the clear vivid awareness of the present moment and not the thoughtstream
Hi Adamant,
That’s right. When there is "I and “you” there is no love, and Mara is always present. Love is the ending of death and, as you say, the ending of confusion.
Or another way of putting it is Self regards Self and loses itself in That. Then we are Thus gone (Tathagata). This is the stage of Oneness which is the fountain from which divine love pours.
Christi
[quote=“Christi”]
Hi Adamant,
Or another way of putting it is Self regards Self and loses itself in That. Then we are Thus gone (Tathagata). This is the stage of Oneness which is the fountain from which divine love pours.
Christi
Hi Christi, Your way of putting it is your way of putting it: back-door pantheism. Adamant
Slides toward conjecture and identity, but close.
Adamant
Hi Carson,
Sometimes words can help, like a finger pointing at the moon. But there needs to be receptivity. In a sense, the whole of the spiritual path is about cultivating receptivity.
Sometimes words can help, like a finger pointing at the moon. But there needs to be receptivity. In a sense, the whole of the spiritual path is about cultivating receptivity.
Unless they point somewhere else. Adamant
Hi Christi 
Agreed. What I was basically meaning though, is that it is very easy to get attached to specific words that are “pointing to the moon” due to a tradition we follow, how we were raised as children, or the experiences we have had in this life so far…so when you say “the whole of the spiritual path is about cultivating receptivity” and I say “the whole of the spiritual path is about cultivating openness” we aren’t contradicting each other, although it may seem like it to some (us included). Meaning, it is pointless IMO to bicker over which words point to the moon best. They are all just words and words can not be Truth. Truth just Is.
Love.
Hi Adamant,
Nothing to do with Pantheism, and nothing to do with a back door.
“Your way”, “my way”, these are simply more divisions of the mind. Go beyond these trivial distinctions and you will come to that which is eternally true.
All the best.
Christi
No one can know what it will take to “wake up” another. What works for one may not work for another. The words one person says may not point you towards the moon, but for another could be a rocketship to True Nature. Everyone is different.
Love.
Hi Carson,
Absolutely. And a lot of the sectarian disputes have been about just that. Which is why it is time to go beyond into a more enlightened era (literally ).
Christi
Amen Brother… 
Love.
No one can know what it will take to “wake up” another. What works for one may not work for another. The words one person says may not point you towards the moon, but for another could be a rocketship to True Nature. Everyone is different.
Love.
If that's the case then everyone would wake up based on what everyone else says. I totally agree in the complete relativity of truth; that complete relativity points to the moon. However, methods should be sound and the results from those methods predictable. When one is working with methods to realize the truth, words do matter, because they describe some fruit to realized. The view that words don't matter is disguising a view about a reality to be realized that is "beyond the mind," and "beyond words." If I say, "words are necessary" and you say I'm wrong, then you made me a sectarian by asserting your sect. Adamant
Nothing to do with Pantheism, and nothing to do with a back door.
“Your way”, “my way”, these are simply more divisions of the mind. Go beyond these trivial distinctions and you will come to that which is eternally true.
All the best.
Christi
Hi Christ, I'll leave you to your eternally true. I'm free of that bondage. Adamant
If that’s the case then everyone would wake up based on what everyone else says.
</blockquote id=“quote”>
I don’t come to that conclusion at all. The conclusion I draw from what is being said is that what points to Truth for you, will not always point to Truth for someone else. And what doesn’t point to Truth for you, may be exactly what someone else needed to wake up. Every journey is totally different…everyone has their own “matrix of obstructions” and what resonates with one will not always resonate with another, and vice versa.
Methods are not words…and as far as I knew we were talking about words pointing to Truth and not methods that bring one to realize Truth…if I am having a discussion with myself here please forgive me .
I think having a “definition” of what is to be realized is an obstruction on the path. If your experience of Truth doesn’t line up with your preconceived definitions of Truth, then you may miss the fact that you are already Home. A “can’t see the forest for all the trees” deal. 
How so? How does a reality that is “beyond the mind” and “beyond words” require words?
Of course. But remember, I never said “you are wrong”, nor would I ever…I can’t insert my Truth into your perspective, and I know it would be futile to try.
Love.
If that’s the case then everyone would wake up based on what everyone else says.
</blockquote id=“quote”>
I don’t come to that conclusion at all. The conclusion I draw from what is being said is that what points to Truth for you, will not always point to Truth for someone else. And what doesn’t point to Truth for you, may be exactly what someone else needed to wake up. Every journey is totally different…everyone has their own “matrix of obstructions” and what resonates with one will not always resonate with another, and vice versa.
Methods are not words…and as far as I knew we were talking about words pointing to Truth and not methods that bring one to realize Truth…if I am having a discussion with myself here please forgive me .
I think having a “definition” of what is to be realized is an obstruction on the path. If your experience of Truth doesn’t line up with your preconceived definitions of Truth, then you may miss the fact that you are already Home. A “can’t see the forest for all the trees” deal.
How so? How does a reality that is “beyond the mind” and “beyond words” require words?
Of course. But remember, I never said “you are wrong”, nor would I ever…I can’t insert my Truth into your perspective, and I know it would be futile to try.
Love.
I have a hard time breaking up quotes blocks: Here it goes.. 1. I agree different things resonate with different people. 2. Methods are described in words. And methods point to some fruit otherwise why bother. 3. I agree definitions are obstructions. Not only definitions, but preconceived notions. Not only preconceived notions but also preconceived assumptions, like "You are That," masquerading as open nonconceptual nonsectarianism. 4. "Beyond words" and "beyond mind" veils and assumption about a reality to be realized, and a system of spiritual practice to realize it. I'm getting at the nature of "freed" and "bondage." Adamant
Hi Adamant,
“I” and “you”, “true” and false", “free” and “bound”, these are all ideas in the mind. Go beyond. This is the true meaning of Tathagata (thus come, thus gone).
The rational mind can be a useful tool, but it can also be a prison. Then it is time to “let go”.
Christi
Cool…glad we can agree on that
I get what you are saying, but I believe you are missing what I am trying (obviously inadequately) to say. What I am trying to indicate here, is that having a “goal/fruit” to aim for is fine, but attaching to a definition of what that goal/fruit is is an obstacle. Meaning, if “enlightenment” or “liberation” or whatever, is what you are striving for with your “methods”, defining what “enlightenment” “liberation” or whatever you are striving for, is an obstacle.
Sure. As are statements like “Gone from That”. They are all just words. They are not Truth.
And what assumption would that be?
Who is there to be free? Who is in bondage?
Love.
“I” and “you”, “true” and false", “free” and “bound”, these are all ideas in the mind. Go beyond. This is the true meaning of Tathagata (thus come, thus gone).
The rational mind can be a useful tool, but it can also be a prison. Then it is time to “let go”.
Christi
Hi Christi, Someone with understanding knows what is and what isn't the path. Letting go of rationality is the usual invitation into bondage. Adamant